Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

renniks said:

Again, not an answer. We aren't talking about what keeps us saved, we are talking about the initial conditions for salvation. Being dead in sin, yes, but then being convicted by the spirit of the need for salvation, and either responding by accepting or rejecting. The spirit is not irresistible as Calvinists claim.

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Conviction, certainly. God can do anything he wants. The spirit can be resisted, certainly, but not impeded. God does exactly what he wants, and how he wants, just as he planned all along. Whomever God chooses will inexorably come to him, and that by the Spirit. You would have God fail, and be forced to plan B?

Mark Quayle said:

OK

Eph 1: "3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—" --Or are you going to say that Paul is referring to the Jews alone there also? If so, look what things he says about "us" before saying, "you also", not as a Jew vs Gentile thing.

Romans 8: "14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."

I would go to Galatians 4 but you get the point. There is NO DIFFERENCE.

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I'm not sure where you're going with this. However, take note that in both of the passages those being referred to are Jews.

BCsenior said:

It's mind-boggling to me how ...
so many "believers" come on these forums thinking they know everything,
and yet they're way off base (sometimes to the point of ridiculousness).

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It is isn't it.

The Righterzpen said:

This is the hope of the saints; that God will faithfully complete what He has started in our lives; because we know on account of our weakness in the flesh that we can’t. That is trust in God who’s enacted (and sustains) redemptive faith

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If God is sustaining your faith without you agreeing to it, then saying to "trust" him is meaningless. You either will or you won't, and either way you had nothing to do with it. Might as well quit telling people to trust God if you're going to claim it's impossible to take any such action.

Mark Quayle said:

Then back to the old easy one with this: "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Yet according to Scripture, Faith is the gift of God. We are [re]born not of the will of man. So how can a person have the faith to trust God if God has not yet given him faith?

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You misunderstand scripture. Grace is a gift from God, faith is willingness to trust in God. It's a gift in the sense that we can't do this alone, but we still have to constantly decide to lean on him. Claiming it's an irresistible gift actually makes it not a gift at all, but something like spiritual rape.

Mark Quayle said:

The spirit can be resisted, certainly, but not impeded.

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That's a contradiction. If the Spirit can be resisted, then what he is trying to do is not happening as he wills it to happen. You all need to at least be consistent with your theology. If you are gonna call it irresistible grace, then don't turn around and claim it can be resisted. Problem is, we all we can and do resist the Spirit, which partly why I'm not a Calvinist. I can't believe what is obviously not true in reality.

renniks said:

That's a contradiction. If the Spirit can be resisted, then what he is trying to do is not happening as he wills it to happen. You all need to at least be consistent with your theology. If you are gonna call it irresistible grace, then don't turn around and claim it can be resisted. Problem is, we all we can and do resist the Spirit, which partly why I'm not a Calvinist. I can't believe what is obviously not true in reality.

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Here it is
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51 KJV)

renniks said:

That's a contradiction. If the Spirit can be resisted, then what he is trying to do is not happening as he wills it to happen. You all need to at least be consistent with your theology. If you are gonna call it irresistible grace, then don't turn around and claim it can be resisted. Problem is, we all we can and do resist the Spirit, which partly why I'm not a Calvinist. I can't believe what is obviously not true in reality.

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Irresistible Grace is a reference to what the Spirit does in regeneration. It does not mean he can't be resisted. I have not said Irresistible Grace can be resisted. For that matter, according to some, they do resist even Irresistible Grace, but in the end, God always wins. Thus, they call it by that name.

Nobody can undo what God does, and no, if the Spirit of God does something, there is no sense in saying he is "trying" to do it. He is doing it. If something he does appears to us to be not working, then obviously we don't know what he is doing. That's like saying if God gives a command then he has failed because some disobey.

Mark Quayle said:

Irresistible Grace is a reference to what the Spirit does in regeneration. It does not mean he can't be resisted. I have not said Irresistible Grace can be resisted. For that matter, according to some, they do resist even Irresistible Grace, but in the end, God always wins. Thus, they call it by that name.

Nobody can undo what God does, and no, if the Spirit of God does something, there is no sense in saying he is "trying" to do it. He is doing it. If something he does appears to us to be not working, then obviously we don't know what he is doing. That's like saying if God gives a command then he has failed because some disobey.

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This all sounds good, but I think it's just opinion. Let me ask a question. The word regeneration only appears twice in Scripture. Jesus uses it once in reference to the resurrection and Paul uses it in conjunction with baptism. Don't both of those events happen after belief? If so, how can regeneration come before faith?

The Parable of the Two Sons

Matthew 21:28-31

“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’

“He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went.

“Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I will go, sir,’ but he did not go."

“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.



This is where our will comes in, and it is the former and not the latter who will be saved in the end...

The one(s) who said (at first) "he (they) would not", but then afterward felt great regret then went out and did it, and not the one(s) who said "they would", but did not go out and truly do it in the end...

Might have thought they were or might have been though...? But they did not in the end, but the first or the former ones did... And it is those ones who will be saved in the end, etc... And those are the ones God has "chosen" in the end, etc...

And the tale says many of those ones were much more sinners than the others also, the ones who said they would, but really didn't in the end, etc... (Matthew 21:31)...

God Bless!

Butch5 said:

This all sounds good, but I think it's just opinion. Let me ask a question. The word regeneration only appears twice in Scripture. Jesus uses it once in reference to the resurrection and Paul uses it in conjunction with baptism. Don't both of those events happen after belief? If so, how can regeneration come before faith?

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That's a little vague, to say he uses it "in conjunction with" baptism. Paul doesn't teach that baptism comes before or even during regeneration.

"In reference to" is also vague as you use it here. Jesus doesn't teach that resurrection is the same as regeneration.

But how does regeneration come "before" faith? It doesn't, as I understand it. It accompanies it. Both are the work of God, and could be argued to be not only the result of God making his home in a person, but to actually BE the Spirit of God in a person. Certainly they don't happen without God moving in --permanently. Both are of the same event --one is the change of heart and mind, the other is the work of God in us as relates to our sight of this life we go through. The faith certainly, therefore, is not man-made.

Note that faith can increase. If that is so, then how can it, during its infancy be sufficient to save? Because it is God-caused --altogether valid, not dependent on our integrity, intelligence, emotions or will power.

renniks said:

If God is sustaining your faith without you agreeing to it, then saying to "trust" him is meaningless. You either will or you won't, and either way you had nothing to do with it. Might as well quit telling people to trust God if you're going to claim it's impossible to take any such action.

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You need to read more carefully. No where in anything that I wrote did I ever say a believer doesn't agree to faith / trust. That agreement is the inevitable outcropping of the recognition of the necessity of need for grace.

I trust because I've been awoken to see the need as well as the goodness from God's willingness to atone for me. Not only is there a trust there from the human end of the equation; there is also an ever deepening reciprocation of love. I know God better now and trust Him more than I did 30 years ago; which also equates to a more entrenched attachment to Him.

Even just yesterday; both my son and I were both reminded; and challenged in some respects of God's absolute sovereignty. My son has epilepsy and has been physically loosing ground in the past 6 months at least. He had an MRI done Monday and the pediatrician's office gave me a CD disk of the study. I picked up the CD Wednesday.

The report said there was nothing on the MRI but a cluster of malformed blood vessels in the posterior temporal lobe of the brain. (We already knew that was there.) While they were running the study; I saw something that was abnormal in his frontal lobe and when I opened the study Thursday evening, to really look at it; I found what I'd seen.

Well, he has a mass in the frontal lobe of the brain and I spent 3 hours just researching through normal MRI's to know for sure that was not suppose to be there. Well, the radiology report said nothing about the existence of this mass; so I called the doctor the next morning and said I wanted someone to see this.

I went in and showed the person we saw the report, as well as the images and the obvious discrepancy between the two. First she told me she had no expertise in reading radiology reports and I said you don't need expertise to see something is obviously there. She looked at it. (Yeah, something is obviously there.) Then she tried to tell me it was the angioma. That's when I lost it and started yelling at her. I told her: "How the flip did you ever got through medical school and not know the difference between the frontal and the temporal lobes of the brain?"

She finally admitted that yes, there is an obvious mass in the frontal love and she didn't have an answer for what was on the MRI, yet not in the report. She then tried to tell me to "wait and see" what doctor X, Y or Z says about it. I then told her: "If this is malignant; we aint got 2 months to "wait and see"!" Then I said: "What if this was your kid's MRI?" She suddenly shut up. I told her we need a second opinion. She said she'd call and see if she could get someone to read it again.

We went up to the hospital records office to order other scans to be sent to the neurologist. We then stopped at the coffee bar to get some coffee and something to eat and proceeded to the ER. I told the ER staff that I have a teenager exhibiting neurological issues; with a mass in the frontal lobe of the brain that is obvious on the MRI, but not even mentioned on the report and I'm not leaving here until I know whether or not my kid has brain cancer!

So I gave them the disk; they tracked down all radiological scans they had of him, both MRI's and CT scans and had their neurology doctors look carefully over all of them. The mass in the frontal lobe is calcification. It's not common in children and is probably a reaction between his genetics and infectious disease. The genetic mutation that might be causing this is probably linked to the epilepsy. We aren't going to know that until the genetic testing is done.

Before we left yesterday for the doctor's office (and ultimately the hospital) we prayed that God give us what ever courage and strength to face what ever this is. Give us peace; even if he dies from this, let him go in comfort that Your purposes will be accomplished in this.

And then I pulled up this song:


So now even though we still aint got an effective treatment plan for his epilepsy; (we at least know he aint got brain cancer) the future is still a mystery. The epilepsy / neurological disorders may still kill him. If that is the case; God already knows this though and He will bring both of us through that process, regardless of the outcome.

BCsenior said:

See, this is one of those true, but tricky, verses in the NT!
There are many of them!
The grand-daddy of them all is John 3:15-16,
and its' companion verses ... "WHOSOEVER believes ..."

News Flash ...
The "whosoever"s have been given enough faith to believe!

So, it's all legal and above-board.

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If it's only those who "are given faith" then it's not whosoever.

The Righterzpen said:

You need to read more carefully. No where in anything that I wrote did I ever say a believer doesn't agree to faith / trust. That agreement is the inevitable outcropping of the recognition of the necessity of need for grace.

I trust because I've been awoken to see the need as well as the goodness from God's willingness to atone for me. Not only is there a trust there from the human end of the equation; there is also an ever deepening reciprocation of love. I know God better now and trust Him more than I did 30 years ago; which also equates to a more entrenched attachment to Him.

Even just yesterday; both my son and I were both reminded; and challenged in some respects of God's absolute sovereignty. My son has epilepsy and has been physically loosing ground in the past 6 months at least. He had an MRI done Monday and the pediatrician's office gave me a CD disk of the study. I picked up the CD Wednesday.

The report said there was nothing on the MRI but a cluster of malformed blood vessels in the posterior temporal lobe of the brain. (We already knew that was there.) While they were running the study; I saw something that was abnormal in his frontal lobe and when I opened the study Thursday evening, to really look at it; I found what I'd seen.

Well, he has a mass in the frontal lobe of the brain and I spent 3 hours just researching through normal MRI's to know for sure that was not suppose to be there. Well, the radiology report said nothing about the existence of this mass; so I called the doctor the next morning and said I wanted someone to see this.

I went in and showed the person we saw the report, as well as the images and the obvious discrepancy between the two. First she told me she had no expertise in reading radiology reports and I said you don't need expertise to see something is obviously there. She looked at it. (Yeah, something is obviously there.) Then she tried to tell me it was the angioma. That's when I lost it and started yelling at her. I told her: "How the flip did you ever got through medical school and not know the difference between the frontal and the temporal lobes of the brain?"

She finally admitted that yes, there is an obvious mass in the frontal love and she didn't have an answer for what was on the MRI, yet not in the report. She then tried to tell me to "wait and see" what doctor X, Y or Z says about it. I then told her: "If this is malignant; we aint got 2 months to "wait and see"!" Then I said: "What if this was your kid's MRI?" She suddenly shut up. I told her we need a second opinion. She said she'd call and see if she could get someone to read it again.

We went up to the hospital records office to order other scans to be sent to the neurologist. We then stopped at the coffee bar to get some coffee and something to eat and proceeded to the ER. I told the ER staff that I have a teenager exhibiting neurological issues; with a mass in the frontal lobe of the brain that is obvious on the MRI, but not even mentioned on the report and I'm not leaving here until I know whether or not my kid has brain cancer!

So I gave them the disk; they tracked down all radiological scans they had of him, both MRI's and CT scans and had their neurology doctors look carefully over all of them. The mass in the frontal lobe is calcification. It's not common in children and is probably a reaction between his genetics and infectious disease. The genetic mutation that might be causing this is probably linked to the epilepsy. We aren't going to know that until the genetic testing is done.

Before we left yesterday for the doctor's office (and ultimately the hospital) we prayed that God give us what ever courage and strength to face what ever this is. Give us peace; even if he dies from this, let him go in comfort that Your purposes will be accomplished in this.

And then I pulled up this song:

So now even though we still aint got an effective treatment plan for his epilepsy; (we at least know he aint got brain cancer) the future is still a mystery. The epilepsy / neurological disorders may still kill him. If that is the case; God already knows this though and He will bring both of us through that process, regardless of the outcome.

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It's interesting to me that we all live as if open theism is reality, even though we claim it's not. We all act as if our actions and prayers affect what God does. We all get anxious when our loved ones are in danger. We even try to make bargains with God. Ultimately, we can only trust that he will work out things for good, even if we can't see it. But no one lives as if everything is determined beforehand. And people in the Bible lived the same way.

renniks said:

It's interesting to me that we all live as if open theism is reality, even though we claim it's not. We all act as if our actions and prayers affect what God does. We all get anxious when our loved ones are in danger. We even try to make bargains with God. Ultimately, we can only trust that he will work out things for good, even if we can't see it. But no one lives as if everything is determined beforehand. And people in the Bible lived the same way.

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I've said this many times before. Our prayers don't change God; they change us. If you note what the prayer actually was; it wasn't to make my son all better. It was to help us accept what ever the outcome is. And only when one understands that; do they pray for the strength to cope with what actually is determined beforehand. That's not "open theism".