Who is THE RESTRAINER

Douggg · Nov 9, 2019

Dave L said:
I think many are unwilling to suffer for Christ and buy into the "rapture" theory for this reason.

1Thessalon 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Dave you are doing just the opposite of what verse 11 says. You war against the rapture, and that is not good.

Dave L · Nov 9, 2019

Douggg said:
1Thessalon 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Dave you are doing just the opposite of what verse 11 says. You war against the rapture, and that is not good.

Suffering for Christ is not wrath. It's a privilege that earns rewards in heaven.

Douggg · Nov 9, 2019

Dave L said:
Suffering for Christ is not wrath. It's a privilege that earns rewards in heaven.

Dave, read the text. It is talking about God's wrath, not suffering for Christ. The church will be taken out of the world because Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

jgr · Nov 9, 2019

Revealing Times said:
That's just not the case at all, its a bad reading of the text in the Olde English it was written in, where some people have a hard time understanding the text. Its speaking of BOTH the Church Departing AND the Man of Sin being REVEALED before the Day of the Lord's Wrath FALL ON MEN. {Its the Wrath of God that is the Subject the Thessalonians feared}.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away{DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH} first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So let me break this down in modern English.

The word for FALLING AWAY means Departure and what is Departing ? The first verse tells us, Jesus will come and Gather his Church so We beseech you by the coming of Jesus and the gathering unto him. To BESEECH means to ASK URGENTLY !! So what was Paul asking them in such an urgent tone ? Well the passage tells us in verse 2.

We ask you urgently that you allow NO MAN to DECEIVE you by Preaching {Word} by a Letter that claims this is what we have been saying, nor by any Spirit [Not of God of course, a lying Spirit or Demon]. BECAUSE THAT DAY.......The Day of the Lord/Christ [God's Wrath], shall not come until the Church DEPARTS.........AND.........The Anti-Christ is REVEALED as the Man of Sin/Beast.

The Anti-Christ is the First Four Seals, the White Horse who Conquers, the Red Horse that takes Peace away, the Black Horse that brings Famine and the Pale Green Horse that brings Death, Sickness and the Grave ALL FOUR over a 42 Months period of time.

So the Rapture happens........AND the Anti-Christ is RELEASED to go Forth Conquering, Killing, Stealing etc. etc. and THEN the Day of the Lord FALLS ON MEN at the 6th Seal.

The 6th Seal is opened after the first 5 Seals of course, even though its on the same day.

So the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ is REVEALED and then the DOTL comes !!
=====================================================

The Holy Spirit goes NOWHERE, Question #2 is thus not relevant.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

Of the several dozen contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as rapture or physical departure, but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

That is, falling away, not flying away.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

Revealing Times · Nov 9, 2019

Ed Parenteau said:
We can see from the following that the departure is not from the earth, but from the faith.

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

And "GAY" used to mean happy, you using an English dictionary to try to understand a Greek word from 2000 years ago is not the proper wordsmith technique tbh. I have an old blog on this very subject that I delved into 4 or 5 years ago. Its quite clear the subject is the "GATHERING" unto Christ as per the Departure and not a REVOLT from the Faith, because FAITH is spoken of in ZERO PLACES in the passage, but the gathering unto Christ is spoken of in the very first verse.

Is the Falling Away [from the faith] a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left on earth by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings" of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away/Revolt of the faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1400 or so years it seems.

ViaCrucis · Nov 9, 2019

Tra Phull said:
In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?

The most ancient and consistent opinion is that the Apostle here speaks of the Roman Empire. Those who understood the man of sin as the Emperor Nero might regard this here as those structures in place which prevented Nero from fully exposing himself for the mad tyrant he was, which led to the burning of Rome as well as the martyrdom of so many in the nascent Church--including the Apostles Paul and Peter themselves.

Others that the removal, or end of the Roman Empire would signal a time of lawlessness, though of course the Roman Empire historically suffered two major defeats (the first the fall of the western Empire in the 5th century, and the second and final blow being the capture of Constantinople in 1453 by the Ottomans) and has since no longer been with us for centuries.

So how one approaches the text and seeks to understand what the Apostle means will almost certainly depend on whether they understand the man of sin to be an historical figure (e.g. Nero) or a still as of yet future figure, a future antichrist.

The vagueness with which the Apostle speaks, unfortunately, makes this a difficult task. As such it has been a long, hotly contested subject in biblical interpretation down through the ages.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Nov 9, 2019

Revealing Times said:
And "GAY" used to mean happy, you using an English dictionary to try to understand a Greek word from 2000 years ago is not the proper wordsmith technique tbh. I have an old blog on this very subject that I delved into 4 or 5 years ago. Its quite clear the subject is the "GATHERING" unto Christ as per the Departure and not a REVOLT from the Faith, because FAITH is spoken of in ZERO PLACES in the passage, but the gathering unto Christ is spoken of in the very first verse.

Is the Falling Away [from the faith] a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left on earth by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings" of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away/Revolt of the faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1400 or so years it seems.

Except, of course, the KJV didn't change the "known understanding", because the historic understanding--the view which had been understood since antiquity, was that this does refer to a falling away from the faith.

St. John Chrysostom's 3rd homily on 2 Thessalonians,

"Here he discourses concerning the Antichrist, and reveals great mysteries. What is 'the falling away?' He calls him Apostasy, as being about to destroy many, and make them fall away. So that if it were possible, He says, the very Elect should be offended. And he calls him 'the man of sin.' For he shall do numberless mischiefs, and shall cause others to do them. But he calls him 'the son of perdition,' because he is also to be destroyed. But who is he? Is it then Satan? By no means; but some man, that admits his fully working in him. For he is a man. 'And exalts himself against all that is called God or is worshipped.' For he will not introduce idolatry, but will be a kind of opponent to God; he will abolish all the gods, and will order men to worship him instead of God, and he will be seated in the temple of God, not that in Jerusalem only, but also in every Church. 'Setting himself forth,' he says; he does not say, saying it, but endeavoring to show it. For he will perform great works, and will show wonderful signs."

So you have an interesting theory--but the claim that it somehow represents the older, historic view is simply false.

-CryptoLutheran

Dave L · Nov 9, 2019

Douggg said:
Dave, read the text. It is talking about God's wrath, not suffering for Christ. The church will be taken out of the world because Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Wrath = hell.

Dave L · Nov 9, 2019

Douggg said:
Dave, read the text. It is talking about God's wrath, not suffering for Christ. The church will be taken out of the world because Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Wrath = hell. God has not appointed us to that.

Revealing Times · Nov 9, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Except, of course, the KJV didn't change the "known understanding", because the historic understanding--the view which had been understood since antiquity, was that this does refer to a falling away from the faith.

Wrong brother, I just showed you the first 7 English Translations was speaking of a DEPARTURE and the Latin Vulgate word used meant Departure also for 1000 years. What is being spoken of ? This ain't that hard to digest be honest, its the Gathering together unto Christ that is being pointed towards as the Definite Article shows, the DEPARTURE of the Church. Nowhere is faith being pointed towards in that whole passage !! All of scriptures confirms the Church is not on earth when the Day of the Lord arrives.

But of course people can't see these things at times because they have tunnel vision on the Rapture or something. People can cite anything they want to about an Apostasy, and I can cite how Gay now means being Homosexual, but in 1930 it meant to be happy, words change over time. The word used by Paul meant a Departure FROM SOMETHING, if it was the Church DEPARTING from the earth then it didn't mean the Church Departing from THE FAITH, and we can see with our own eyes its speaking about the Gathering unto Christ.

I don't allow Men's Traditions to sway me into an erroneous way of thinking if it doesn't jibe.

God Bless...

Abraxos · Nov 9, 2019

Revealing Times said:
The Holy Spirit does not leave the earth, it just reverts back to the situation it was in before the Church "MULTIPLIED"

Can you provide the verses for me on where it states that the Holy Spirit will revert back to the situation it was in before the Church multiplied?

Douggg said:
Abraxos, I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world because of the rapture. No more than the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world whenever a Christian dies.

This isn't that much of a compelling argument because there are no scriptures that imply this, even just a little bit. How can the Holy Spirit (an omnipresent being) be "taken out of the way" and yet still be present on earth?

@Douggg & @Revealing Times
It seems that you both agree (correct me if I'm wrong) on that once the restrainer is removed (the departure of the church) this triggers the great apostasy. It may well be true, that the church being raptured before the great tribulation would cast a heavy sense of despair on the minds of Christians left behind; and with the prosperity of deceit and delusion (the iniquity of lawlessness) gone rampant in the world with the Antichrist at its lead, the result will be a great falling away from the Christian faith. This I very much agree with, but, unfortunately, there are contradictions to the text that bring a pre-trib view to appear as overemphasising a point that is simply not there in the text.

There is, however, another cause for the 'falling away', and that is due to one man many Christians often overlook -- Elijah (Mal 4:6, Rev 6:2, Lk 1:7, Is 49:1-7 Is 55:5, Zech 3, Zech 4:6-10, etc). And I will say that this end-time Elijah archetype is profoundly linked to The Restrainer if not are one of the same.

Dave L · Nov 9, 2019

OK............. John said in Revelation (These) things "which must shortly come to pass". So the restrainer has already been taken out of the way. What was it? How did things change to fulfill Daniel's prophecy? How well do you know history?

Berean Tim · Nov 9, 2019

Revealing Times said:
And "GAY" used to mean happy, you using an English dictionary to try to understand a Greek word from 2000 years ago is not the proper wordsmith technique tbh. I have an old blog on this very subject that I delved into 4 or 5 years ago. Its quite clear the subject is the "GATHERING" unto Christ as per the Departure and not a REVOLT from the Faith, because FAITH is spoken of in ZERO PLACES in the passage, but the gathering unto Christ is spoken of in the very first verse.

Is the Falling Away [from the faith] a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left on earth by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings" of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away/Revolt of the faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1400 or so years it seems.

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
I don't think Paul would say "our gathering together to Him (rapture)" can't come until the "Apostasy ( rapture ?) comes first , makes no sense.
The Departure comes first , then the rapture

Douggg · Nov 9, 2019

Abraxos said:
This isn't that much of a compelling argument because there are no scriptures that imply this, even just a little bit. How can the Holy Spirit (an omnipresent being) be "taken out of the way" and yet still be present on earth?

The body of Christ is what is taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit is not removed from the earth. I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote.

Abraxos said:
It seems that you both agree (correct me if I'm wrong) on that once the restrainer is removed (the departure of the church) this triggers the great apostasy.

Speaking for myself and not RT, the great apostasy is when the world thinks that the Antichrist is the true messiah, and many in Christianity will turn from believing in Jesus and will be among those who will believe that the Antichrist is the messiah.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 9, 2019

Berean Tim said:
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
I don't think Paul would say "our gathering together to Him (rapture)" can't come until the "Apostasy ( rapture ?) comes first , makes no sense.
The Departure comes first , then the rapture

Paul was taught by Jesus directly. He spoke the Breathed Word of Yahuweh, Inspired by Yahuweh - not his own personal interpretation but Yahuweh's Word, Yahuweh's meaning, Yahuweh's Plan, Yahuweh's Purpose.
IF someone got something different, it is not right. This is how the Bereans knew when anyone brought a message that was wrong - it was different from the Gospel Message that they had already received once for all. It was different from God's Word.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 9, 2019

Corrie ten Boom more recently (than Paul

) , also got the message from God right, in line with the original message - in perfect harmony with all Scripture.
Her letter, or a utube video of her message, is available online. Something like "Corrie ten Boom" and the tribulation, or similar. (I use various search terms to find it at different times)

ViaCrucis · Nov 9, 2019

Revealing Times said:
Wrong brother, I just showed you the first 7 English Translations was speaking of a DEPARTURE and the Latin Vulgate word used meant Departure also for 1000 years. What is being spoken of ? This ain't that hard to digest be honest, its the Gathering together unto Christ that is being pointed towards as the Definite Article shows, the DEPARTURE of the Church. Nowhere is faith being pointed towards in that whole passage !! All of scriptures confirms the Church is not on earth when the Day of the Lord arrives.

But of course people can't see these things at times because they have tunnel vision on the Rapture or something. People can cite anything they want to about an Apostasy, and I can cite how Gay now means being Homosexual, but in 1930 it meant to be happy, words change over time. The word used by Paul meant a Departure FROM SOMETHING, if it was the Church DEPARTING from the earth then it didn't mean the Church Departing from THE FAITH, and we can see with our own eyes its speaking about the Gathering unto Christ.

I don't allow Men's Traditions to sway me into an erroneous way of thinking if it doesn't jibe.

God Bless...

Just so we're clear, just because those translations say "departure" doesn't mean that the translators understood this to refer to anything other than a departure from the faith.

If you want to argue that the view, the understanding which was held, was that this "departure" isn't a departure from the faith but something else then you are beholden to provide evidence for that claim. You have not done so.

If you want to argue that St. Jerome chose discessio in his Latin translation because Jerome (and others at the time) believed this referred to a departure of Christians from the earth, then you need to present that argument by pointing to actual statements to that effect. Do you have evidence of Jerome believing this? Do you have evidence of any from this time period believing this? Do you have evidence of anyone before believing this? Do you have evidence of anyone afterward believing this?

Now, further:

Here is how Wycliffe translates 2 Thessalonians 2:3

"No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun,"

Wycliffe doesn't say "departure", but "dissension" (or rather the Middle English spelling thereof), a rather sensible translation of the Latin discessio (as Wycliffe was translating from the Vulgate); and the Latin word discessio can mean "withdrawal", "dispersion", or "separation". Here Wycliffe has chosen dissension, a break (separation) with something.

Now, you are correct that that Tyndale translates this as "departing"

"Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion" - Tyndale

But it is not unanimous, as from the Bishop's Bible of 1568 we have,

"Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for [the Lorde shall not come] excepte there come a fallyng away first, & that that man of sinne be reuealed, the sonne of perdition,"

So, correct that Tyndale, Coverdale, and the Geneva use "departing". That's three translations.

Otherwise we have the Vulgate's discessio, which Wycliffe understands with the English "dissension". We have the Bishop's Bible's "fallyng away".

Further, we can look at other translations, such as the ancient Peshitta (Aramaic Bible), in which the word has been translated from Greek as ܡܪܘܕܘܬܐ (mrwdwt) meaning "rebellion".

Contemporary 16th century translations, such as the 1569 Spanish language Sagradas Escrituras translation,

"No os engañe nadie en ninguna manera; porque no vendrá sin que venga antes la apostasía, y se manifieste el hombre de pecado, el hijo de perdicion"

The 1545 Lutherbibel has "Lasset euch niemand verführen in keinerlei Weise! Denn er kommt nicht, es sei denn, daß zuvor der Abfall komme, und offenbaret werde der Mensch der Sünde und das Kind des Verderbens," (literally "the rubbish" or "the garbage", possibly from the sense of trash being swept away).

-CryptoLutheran

Douggg · Nov 9, 2019

Dave L said:
Wrath = hell. God has not appointed us to that.

Dave, go to your bible, in Revelation read about the vials (some translations have bowls) of God's wrath. And about the wrath of the Lamb. And about Satan's wrath.

The church is not appointed to any of those.

Abraxos · Nov 9, 2019

Douggg said:
The body of Christ is what is taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit is not removed from the earth. I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote.

It's difficult for me to understand this because as I said previously, this is an argument from silence for the restrainer to be the church. It's simply not in the Bible.

Speaking for myself and not RT, the great apostasy is when the world thinks that the Antichrist is the true messiah, and many in Christianity will turn from believing in Jesus and will be among those who will believe that the Antichrist is the messiah.

The sequence of events 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8:

The restrainer is removed
Man of sin is revealed
The great apostasy takes place
Then the saints are gathered to Christ (i.e. the rapture)

This much we agree with, correct? If that is the case, then we agree that there cannot be a pre-trib rapture.

Douggg · Nov 9, 2019

Abraxos said:
It's difficult for me to understand this because as I said previously, this is an argument from silence for the restrainer to be the church. It's simply not in the Bible.

Who is the head of the Church?

Is the Church the body of Christ?

Does Jesus has the power to restrain the Anitchrist from committing the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, until after the church is taken out of the world, via the rapture?

The restrainer is He who is the head of the Church. The church is figuratively his body.

Who is THE RESTRAINER

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Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.

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Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.

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