LDS Mormon Doctrine Says You Can be Both Saved and Lost

mmksparbud said:

Is of Greek origin first used in the 14 century.

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I found this article to be rather interesting:

“Satyrs” or “Goats” in Isaiah 13:21 et al.?
"But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there." (Isaiah 13:21, KJV)


"The Hebrew word for goat is "שׂעיר (saiyr)." It refers to the animal, but also to goat demons (Leviticus 17:7). The term “satyr” is Greek, but it strongly resembles the Hebrew "saiyr." The Greek "satyr" may actually be based on the Hebrew "saiyr." The roguish and debaucherous half-goat creature of Greek mythology strongly resembles the “goat demon” mentioned in Scripture. The ESV and NASB also translate "saiyr" as "goat demons" in Leviticus 17:7. The NASB even has “satyrs” in 2 Chronicles 11:15 where the KJV has “devils.” In Isaiah 13:21, the satyrs “dance” – a trademark activity of satyrs in mythology. Rather than assuming that the KJV's satyr is based on Greek mythology, it may be more reasonable to think that the Greek mythology is based on the Hebrew goat demon referred to as "saiyr."

From: “Satyrs” or “Goats” in Isaiah 13:21 et al.? - King James Version Today

He is the way said:

I found this article to be rather interesting:

“Satyrs” or “Goats” in Isaiah 13:21 et al.?
"But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there." (Isaiah 13:21, KJV)


"The Hebrew word for goat is "שׂעיר (saiyr)." It refers to the animal, but also to goat demons (Leviticus 17:7). The term “satyr” is Greek, but it strongly resembles the Hebrew "saiyr." The Greek "satyr" may actually be based on the Hebrew "saiyr." The roguish and debaucherous half-goat creature of Greek mythology strongly resembles the “goat demon” mentioned in Scripture. The ESV and NASB also translate "saiyr" as "goat demons" in Leviticus 17:7. The NASB even has “satyrs” in 2 Chronicles 11:15 where the KJV has “devils.” In Isaiah 13:21, the satyrs “dance” – a trademark activity of satyrs in mythology. Rather than assuming that the KJV's satyr is based on Greek mythology, it may be more reasonable to think that the Greek mythology is based on the Hebrew goat demon referred to as "saiyr."

From: “Satyrs” or “Goats” in Isaiah 13:21 et al.? - King James Version Today

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I've read that article before---the word "satyrs" did not appear until the 14th century.
First Known Use of satyr
14th century, in the meaning defined at sense 1

Peter1000 said:

We put an emphasis on grace, because without grace you cannot be saved. It is an important doctrine to us. But to us, grace is not the only factor that brings eternal life, but it is the last and most important factor.

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He is the way said:

Although there are a lot of verses in the Book of Mormon that came from the Bible, Unicorn is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon and many of the verses have wording that is different because it is more correct.

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Not responding to these---I just grabbed them to get your attention.

Mormon Family Massacre Stuns Mexico, Laying Bare Government’s Helplessness

Right now, Mexico is becoming controlled by the drug cartels.

I just read this and was totally stunned. We've had our differences, but this is horrible. I don't think they were gunned down for being Mormon but I do not know. There is so much violence in Mexico that no one is safe. I know there have been many Mormons in Mexico but had not heard of any violence against them. I just wish to express the sadness I feel and the grief over this horrible act---even children were shot in the back. I just pray the Lord comes soon.

Gen_6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

This has grieved me to tears. I am not Mexican, but being Hispanic, I am ashamed of such acts done my other Hispanics. And I know that I do have family in Mexico, but do not know where. My deepest sympathies. It doesn't matter if they are not family to you or not, they are your brothers and sister in your faith.

mmksparbud said:

Not responding to these---I just grabbed them to get your attention.

Mormon Family Massacre Stuns Mexico, Laying Bare Government’s Helplessness

Right now, Mexico is becoming controlled by the drug cartels.

I just read this and was totally stunned. We've had our differences, but this is horrible. I don't think they were gunned down for being Mormon but I do not know. There is so much violence in Mexico that no one is safe. I know there have been many Mormons in Mexico but had not heard of any violence against them. I just wish to express the sadness I feel and the grief over this horrible act---even children were shot in the back. I just pray the Lord comes soon.

Gen_6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

This has grieved me to tears. I am not Mexican, but being Hispanic, I am ashamed of such acts done my other Hispanics. And I know that I do have family in Mexico, but do not know where. My deepest sympathies. It doesn't matter if they are not family to you or not, they are your brothers and sister in your faith.

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Thank you so much for your heartfelt sympathy. I don't know what this world is coming to. Someone was stabbed to death over a chicken sandwich. Then there was the man who stabbed his stepmother to death over a football game. It seems that there is not enough patience and love on earth. It is also sad when money becomes more important than life itself. When people sell harmful drugs like fentanyl knowing that someone may die from it. It seems that they are unloving, uncaring, and cold hearted. I appreciate your concern and love.

mmksparbud said:

I don't think they were gunned down for being Mormon but I do not know.

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In the late 1800s, the federal government's ban on polygamy sought to strip Mormons living in the United States of their human rights, all part of an effort to annihilate the last of the "twin relics of barbarism" and anyone who might still practice it.

Yes, at least one source I've read has it that individual US marshals operating in the Rocky Mountains were seeking permission to shoot on sight any Mormon they encountered simply because that person was Mormon.

It's one of the darkest chapters in American history, but because we Mormons don't rate highly enough on the "progressive stack" almost nobody outside of the church wants to talk about it, or the fact that even to this day there are people in the US who hate the church so much that they are probably drinking champagne over the news.

As you can imagine, under the circumstances large numbers of members fled to Mexico and Canada in the fear that it wouldn't be long before the US government issued a general extermination order as had happened in Missouri. The town of Cardston, Alberta, Canada was one such settlement, its founder being a direct ancestor of sci-fi writer Orson Scott Card.

The history of the church in Mexico is rather tumultuous, especially since a number of members living there broke off to form their own religious group once Official Declaration #2 reached them. While there were people who remained members of the main body of the church, various groups began to operate in Northern Mexico as well, including the group these individuals were a member of.

Violence against Mormons living in Mexico has waned and waxed with the general level of stability in the nation. If the nation is calm then all Mormons are relatively safe, but if things become unstable the church is just another foreign organization to be removed by force.

And yeah - as I noted, even here in the US there is anti-Mormon sentiment to the point that folks want us dead. I've had threats, as have others.

Way to take advantage of a tragic incident to stand on your soapbox of supposed Mormon persecution. I knew this would happen. Pathetic.

Dale said:

The Latter Day Saints would certainly be considered an Old Testament-oriented faith because of the emphasis the LDS puts on works. The Seventh Day Adventists would also be considered Old Testament-oriented, largely because of their emphasis on Saturday worship. .

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So then all Seventh-day groups ... "OT oriented" if they don't edit the Ten Commandments?

Seventh-day Baptists?
Messianic groups?
Seventh-day church of God?

What about other groups who accept the TEN commandments but they agree to edit the Word of God and make the 4th commandment point to week-day-1. Would that get them "not OT oriented"?

What about folks that agree that Christians should not "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7... are they considered "OT oriented"??

Dale said:

The Latter Day Saints would certainly be considered an Old Testament-oriented faith because of the emphasis the LDS puts on works. The Seventh Day Adventists would also be considered Old Testament-oriented, largely because of their emphasis on Saturday worship. One of the differences between these two groups is that the SDA put considerable importance on the Ark of the Covenant. According to SDA founder Ellen White, there is an Ark in heaven, the earthly one is only a copy. Jesus is serving as a priest before the heavenly Ark, in a heavenly Tabernacle.

In contrast, the LDS are not much concerned with the Ark. Bruce McConkie's Mormon Doctrine is over 600 pages. The Ark of the Covenant is only mentioned once, and that only in passing, as a bit of history. It has no continuing role.
Is it surprising that a church that puts so much emphasis on law and obedience is so little concerned with the Ark? The Old Testament Ark contained the tablets which represented God's Law.

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Actually, they are neither OT or NT oriented, they are JS, and their prophets, oriented. It is what they say that matters, not really what the bible says, unless it agrees with what their prophets say.

Dale said:

The Latter Day Saints would certainly be considered an Old Testament-oriented faith because of the emphasis the LDS puts on works. The Seventh Day Adventists would also be considered Old Testament-oriented, largely because of their emphasis on Saturday worship. One of the differences between these two groups is that the SDA put considerable importance on the Ark of the Covenant. According to SDA founder Ellen White, there is an Ark in heaven, the earthly one is only a copy. Jesus is serving as a priest before the heavenly Ark, in a heavenly Tabernacle.

In contrast, the LDS are not much concerned with the Ark. Bruce McConkie's Mormon Doctrine is over 600 pages. The Ark of the Covenant is only mentioned once, and that only in passing, as a bit of history. It has no continuing role.

Is it surprising that a church that puts so much emphasis on law and obedience is so little concerned with the Ark? The Old Testament Ark contained the tablets which represented God's Law.

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Jesus gave us the higher law during the sermon on the mount.

BigDaddy4 said:

Way to take advantage of a tragic incident to stand on your soapbox of supposed Mormon persecution. I knew this would happen. Pathetic.

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Fundamentalist Mormons are apostates from the main denomination; they are polygamists like Warren Jeff's followers. Murder is evil no matter what the victims believe.

Attention, Christians!

You are not allowed to question SDAs in this section.

Dale said:

Do Morrmons in general believe this? I haven't seen them putting an emphasis on the Sermon on the Mount.

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Emphasizing the Beatuitudes is a recent tactic.

Phoebe Ann said:

Attention, Christians!

You are not allowed to question SDAs in this section.

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Sorry, actually BobRyan, SDA, questioned another Christian---Dale--I butted in, It was really an SDA questioning another Christian and another SDA answering, which is not allowed anyway!! We keep forgetting we can not discuss with other Christians, only with Mormons.

Dale said:

Do Morrmons in general believe this? I haven't seen them putting an emphasis on the Sermon on the Mount.

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Yes, we do believe that Jesus gave us the higher law when He gave the sermon on the mount.

Sermon on the Mount: The Higher Law

Lesson 8: The Sermon on the Mount: “A More Excellent Way”

Phoebe Ann said:

Emphasizing the Beatuitudes is a recent tactic.

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I have always emphasized the higher law. God is LOVE and the commandments are LOVE. I have referred to the sermon on the mount many times.

He is the way said:

I have referred to the sermon on the mount many times.

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Have you lived it?

[ ] 100%
[ ] 90%
[ ] 80%
[ ] >80%

Does that make you saved or lost?


.... CRICKETS

drstevej said:

Have you lived it?

[ ] 100%
[ ] 90%
[ ] 80%
[ ] >80%

Does that make you saved or lost?


.... CRICKETS

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Everyone needs to work out their own salvation:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:1 - 11)

1 FORASMUCH then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

(New Testament | Philippians 2:12 - 16)

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.