Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

createdtoworship · Nov 8, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, just because the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians talks about the End Times, does not mean that it is referring to future believers in 2 Thessalonians 2 with the words "you" eight times in that chapter. It violates basic rules of grammar to make 2 Thessalonians 2 as referring to the words "you" as being to future believers. It doesn't even make any sense. Is Paul talking to future people? This is why I know you have either:

(a) Not read 2 Thessalonians 2.
(b) Not taken the time to properly read each verse and digest it so as to comprehend what is going on.

Can you maybe offer a word for word commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2 so as to prove that it is referring to future believers when Paul says "you" eight times?

Not true. Your dismal of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, John 5:24, and James 2:24 (in that they all say that we are saved by both Justification, and Sanctification) is duly noted. Yeah, they do not use those exact words your fishing for, but there is a thing in life called synonyms or other related words that say the same thing.

But your view of Repentance does not exist in the Scriptures.
Unless of course you can show me the verses that prove your version of repentance.

30 verses in Scripture say otherwise.

James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22 (cf. John 14:15), Romans 8:1 (cf. Romans 8:13), Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 16:24-26, Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 9:62 etc.

For a complete list of the verses, see again post #150.

I share my faith every chance I get. I go by the leading of the Spirit to talk to the Lord about others. On the forums, I have more of a free reign to tell others the truth to all the good news. But yes, preaching the gospel is a salvation issue (See Luke 9:62). But just so that you may know, God does not say in His Word that you have to preach daily or hourly, or something. Just that we need to be doing so to some capacity.

Yes, I believe it because that is what the Bible plainly teaches.
But not everybody accepts all verses in the Bible in what they plainly say because they do not like them.

Actually, your belief does not make any sense whatsoever.

You provided a Google Document on Lordship Salvation and either you or somebody else had made a commentary to the texts in the Bible that ignores whole swafs of NT Scripture. How do you apply those verses to your life? You simply don't. Ever slowly read 1 Timothy 6:3-4 lately?

I believe in biblical grace, and not OSAS grace, or neither Non-OSAS Belief Alone-ism grace. Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Wrong. I believe I am saved by two works of God. The 1st work of God is God's grace through faith (Justification) and the 2nd work of God are works of faith and or holy living worked out through the believer (Sanctification).

Again, false accusation. Sanctification is also part of the imputation of Christ's sacrifice (See again: 1 John 1:7).

Again, not true. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that we should love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

Again, not true. I already provided the verses, but you just labeled them into your own theological categories and you did not really provide a word for word commentary on them.

You said in post #393 the following words,

"no, no, no indulging in sin will not result in loss of salvation. Jesus died for all sin, past, present and future. " ~ Gradyll.

Care to revise your statement?

Bible Highlighter said:
Also, who gets to define how long one gets to struggle with sin? Somebody can keep indulging in a sin, and say they are just struggling with it, and or they can fool themselves that they are just struggling with such a sin, when they have no real intention of stopping deep down. Sure, they may say to themselves "This is the day I will stop in doing this sin," and then they go right back to doing it again, and again, and again. Who cares to overcome such a sin, right? Jesus saves. So what does it even matter if one abides in sin? It really doesn't matter if one indulges in sin believes they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. This is why this teaching is dangerous. It makes light of the dangers of sin and how it can destroy our souls. Jesus warned about how the sin of looking upon a woman in lust could potentially lead one to be cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Was Jesus kidding? Surely not.

The believers were there presently, but God knew that the same church (present tense) would be there in the end time, so it was salvation FROM the tribulation for the future church. The first twelve verses of that chapter specifically talk about end times chronology, just simply read the previous 12 verses prior to the one you are quoting. Anyway, I won't reply to all of your post. I just recommend praying. The Bible is spiritual. That means that we can literally read it all day long and not understand a single word, if God does not want us to. In the gospels Jesus spoke in parables, many people believe that the parables were illustrations to teach truth to the general public. Actually it was not. Parables were encoded information, and only the disciples were given the key code to interpret the parable, usually in a private meeting. So God basically spoke in parables to hide information, and secondly to relay information that would be readily misunderstood. This is important. Much of the Bible is readily misunderstood. And God designed it that way. If you are a true disciple and you pray, God will reveal the truth to you in time. So pray, prepare your heart, read in humility, seek God. Just so you know in 15 years on this forum, I have never seen someone change a view publicly on the forums. I can prove something upwards and downwards, right and left, not in only one way, but in all ways, and they will literally not see it. Because their is a veil over their eyes. All the answers will come to you in time, if you remain humble. If you approach this as if you have studied it and obtained the knowledge, then like the general multitude you will read and not understand, "seeing you won't see, and hearing you will not comprehend." My conversation here is to help the other posters to understand the truth, I know that you won't get it, and that is fine. So back to the topic at hand....If like I said you can simply provide 7 verses that say that sanctification is part of salvation I will agree whole hearted with you, and admit defeat. But I have refuted the only verse you mention. And you are defending it unsuccessfully. All we have to do is read it to see that it's not saying what you say it is. I am not hear to convert you to my view. I wish for people to come to know Jesus and His love for us. His love is never to create a wage for us to earn His love, but His love is a free gift. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will hear the liberty bells ring and find true freedom in Christ. I hope and pray you find that soon in your life. It's night and day different. One is bondage to religion, the other is falling in love with God.

JLB777 · Nov 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
The only real issue regarding whether salvation is secure or conditional on behavior is reading what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

He said they shall never perish.

That says it all.

Once saved, always saved. OSAS

Once a son, always a son. OSAS

Once justified, always justified. OJAJ

Once regenerated, always regenerated. ORAR

Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, always sealed with the Holy Spirit. OSAS

None of these 5 statements can be shown from Scripture to be false. There is no evidence in the Bible that teaches that any of these can be rescinded, revoked, ended, stopped, removed, lost.

If His sheep, that becomes lost was still called justified, then why does Jesus call him a sinner in need of repentance?

The 99 were called just.
The one is called a sinner

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Still rejecting what Jesus taught and in its place, you are leaning own your opinion.

The meaning of biblical words is everything.

According to your “redefinition” of biblical words, lost now means “out of fellowship” and found means “restored to fellowship”?

You don’t just get make up His own definition’s as you goes along, to suit tour own personal theology.

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2 Peter 1:20-2:2

Lost means - Separated from Christ; sinner in need of repentance
Spiritually dead to God

likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

Found means - reconciled to God; justified; spiritually alive to God

over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A sinner by definition is a person separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26

again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Nov 8, 2019

JLB777 said:
If His sheep, that becomes lost was still called justified, then why does Jesus call him a sinner in need of repentance?

As I have previously explained, the word "sheep" can mean different things. There is not one meaning of the word, as it seems you think.

The point of it all is found in your opening words of your post, "If His sheep". That defines who his sheep are. They are His. He owns them. And John 10:28 specifically says that He gives eternal life to them (His sheep). And the result is that they shall never perish.

So, whatever "lost" means, in your question, it CANNOT mean loss of salvation. Because that would contradict what Jesus said about His sheep.

From John 10:28, one thing is clear. His sheep shall never perish. So, what does "lost" mean, in the Luke 151-7 account? It means they got away from His other sheep and need to be brought back to the fold. That isn't any kind of clear statement about loss of salvation.

I believe that "lost" in Luke 15 refers to loss of fellowship with the Lord, an idea that you have shown an extreme unwillingness to even consider. Well, that's on you.

But since your question was about "His sheep", then, they have eternal life and shall never perish. So said Jesus. I'm not one to argue with the clear words of Jesus.

btw, in my understanding of the word "lost", such a sheep of Jesus WILL NEED to repent if they get lost. Just as the prodigal needed to repent. And his father described him as "lost" and "dead", though he never died physically in the parable, and he knew where he was and where his father was.

So, in the prodigal parable, both "lost" and "dead" can easily refer to having no fellowship with the father, which was very obvious.

Spiritualizing the parable to turn "lost" and "dead" into loss of salvation is a gross error.

The 99 were called just.
The one is called a sinner

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

When a believer is out of fellowship, they ARE sinning. No doubt about it. That is why Paul commands believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18), to walk by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) and to NOT grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

So yes, a "lost sheep" of Jesus is in need of repentance, and is sinning. But still possesses eternal life and still shall never perish.

Still rejecting what Jesus taught and in its place, you are leaning own your opinion.

Not at all. I've given the verses that back up my view. Unlike yourself. You assume "lost" means lost salvation across the board.

The meaning of biblical words is everything.

I fully agree.

According to your “redefinition” of biblical words, lost now means “out of fellowship” and found means “restored to fellowship”?

There is no redefinition here. It's OBVIOUS that it means that in that particular parable, and the prodigal parable.

But you have shown an extreme unwillingness to consider being out of fellowship as a meaning of the word. Why? Because it removes your opinion about losing salvation.

You don’t just get make up His own definition’s as you goes along, to suit tour own personal theology.

What I've explains FITS both parables perfectly and DOESN'T CONTRADICT what Jesus said about His sheep in John 10:28.

Your definition DOES CONTRADICT what Jesus said about His sheep in John 10:28.

Lost means - Separated from Christ; sinner in need of repentance
Spiritually dead to God

I'll repeat this again. The word has specific meaning ONLY IN ITS immediate context. And I've proven it from Scripture.

likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

Where do you get the idea that this means getting saved or re-saved? Repentance and confession of sin go together, just as the prodigal son demonstrated. He confessed his sin and he repented by returning to his father.

He wasn't lost directionally. He knew exactly where he was. And since Jesus was telling a human story, it's obvious what was lost. Fellowship with his father.

Found means - reconciled to God; justified; spiritually alive to God

Why can't it refer to restored fellowship with the Lord, in specific contexts? Please explain.

over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Right. Believers IN fellowship are NOT in need of repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Why don't you think that God's angels wouldn't rejoice when a believer gets back into fellowship with the Lord? Why is that so foreign to you?

A sinner by definition is a person separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26

Not even close. This is a description of Jesus, the God-man, who was perfect in His humanity. That's what "separate from sinners" means. He never sinned. That is what separates Him from the rest of humanity.

So your so-called definition is bogus.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Luke 15:32

Thanks. This clearly demonstrates my point.

The prodigal son left under very unpleasant circumstances. Every 1st Century Jew would have understood that what the prodigal son was really saying was this:

I wish you were dead, so I could get my share of the inheritance. But since you're not dead, just give me my inheritance so I can blow this place and go have some fun.

That IS the context for the prodigal. So the concept of fellowship is very much in play here. The son left after highly insulting his father by his request.

But you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. Or make up your own opinion about it.

Doesn't matter. Truth is truth.

One thing is quite clear in the story of the prodigal. He neither died physically or got lost geographically.

What died and was lost was fellowship.

But I know how much this refutes your narrow minded definition of "lost" and "dead".

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2019

gradyll said:
The believers were there presently, but God knew that the same church (present tense) would be there in the end time, so it was salvation FROM the tribulation for the future church.

That's ridiculous. If that was what Paul was saying, he would have clarified that fact. He would have said,

"Now on this point, I speak of those believers who will face the man of sin, and who have missed out on being taken up by our Lord, ...God has chosen them to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (Belief Alone-ism Altered version of 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

However, this is not what Paul said. Paul is still talking to the believers at Thessalonica and Paul even includes himself in the conversation. Paul says,

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:13-15).

If I say "we" or "our" that includes me. So Paul is not referring exclusively to some future group of believers during the end times only. That is only you inserting something into the text that does not simply exist.

Again, you do not like what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. So you are attempting to change what the surrounding verses say in order to make it fit your view of Soteriology that is not biblical.

You said:
The first twelve verses of that chapter specifically talk about end times chronology, just simply read the previous 12 verses prior to the one you are quoting.

2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, verses 1-12:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

My Commentary to the first few verses to the above text:

Verse 1 - Paul urgently requests the brethren in regards to the teaching on the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and by their gathering unto him not to be in a panic about such a thing (verse 2 - "shaken in mind"). What is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ? It is the Pre-Trib Rapture followed by the 7 year tribulation which includes the 2nd coming (at the end of the 7 years). What is our gathering unto Him? This is the Pre-Trib Rapture. Important Note: The gathering up of believers (Pre-Trib Rapture) is still before the 7 year tribulation. Paul says, "and by our gathering together unto him." So this means that Paul is referring to these Thessalonians with the hope that they would be partakers of the Pre-Trib Rapture. For those in the Pre-Trib Rapture will not face the man of sin, or any of the other dark things in the 7 year tribulation.

Verse 2 - Paul assures the believers at Thessalonica in his own time that the Day of the Lord (The sixth seal) or God's wrath has not come (Side Note: The man of sin, the antichrist would still need to be revealed before that can happen) (Note: This is AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture, and Paul is having the hope that these believers will be gathered together up by Christ to be with Him before this judgment of the Day of the Lord can happen). Paul is not referring to the reader (who is a believer) as if they are going to miss out on the Rapture. Verse 1 says, "and by our gathering together unto him." (Which can either be at the Pre-Trib Rapture, or in the Mid Tribulation Gathering up of the saints by angels before God lays down the really bad stuff upon the Earth with the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath).

Verse 3 - The "Day of the Lord" or God's Wrath (i.e. The really bad stuff coming upon the Earth) mentioned in verse 2 will not happen until the following two things happen first.

(a) The falling away (needs to happen first before the Day of the Lord can happen).
I believe this happening now and it will continue to only get worse. The falling away of believers is as a whole involving the church is becoming more and more each day. Most do not want to believe ALL of what God's Word says anymore. They just want to obey those parts that they can alter from their perspective. So they will speak against many verses in their bibles and they won't believe them. The scary thing is that they do not even realize that they are speaking against the many words in their Bible. I believe the falling away will build up to an event in the the future when believers will lose their faith en mass in large numbers (unlike ever before in history).

(b) The man of sin is revealed (the antichrist) (which needs to happen first before the Day of the Lord, the six seal can happen).

So far, in verses 1-3, we do not learn of anything that supports the claim of believers living after the Pre-Trib Rapture. I also just re-read again verses 4-12 and there is also nothing of any talk of believers existing in the time after the Pre-Trib Rapture as a part of Paul's conversation to these believers at Thessalonica in his own time. If you think there is something that indicates Paul was talking exclusively to future believers in the 7 year tribulation, then by all means show the verse. But we know you cannot do that because no actual verse exists that says that. That is why you just refer to the verses generally here and you are not quoting specific words that proves your case.

You said:
Anyway, I won't reply to all of your post. I just recommend praying. The Bible is spiritual. That means that we can literally read it all day long and not understand a single word, if God does not want us to.

I think you need to take your own advice, but you need to stop believing in a belief that justifies sin on some level, my friend. Why do I say this? Jude 1:4 warns against the idea of turning God's grace into a license for immorality. No offense, but I got the impression before that you are saying that a believer can sin and still be saved on some level. How so? Well, you implied before that I could not stop in lusting after women and or lying by your asking me if I stopped in doing these things (Meaning: You are suggesting that no believer can really overcome these kinds of sins, which is simply not what the Bible teaches - See 2 Corinthians 7:1).

By what you said so far: I think in your view, if a believer is fighting against sin or resisting it in some way, they are okay with God, but they really cannot overcome certain sins in this life (like lying, and or lusting after women); But of course, sins such as murder, and rampant sexual sins that society now wants us to approve of these days, no believer will do these kinds of sins). Is this correct? If I am wrong about your belief here, then please tell me otherwise.

You said:
In the gospels Jesus spoke in parables, many people believe that the parables were illustrations to teach truth to the general public. Actually it was not. Parables were encoded information, and only the disciples were given the key code to interpret the parable, usually in a private meeting. So God basically spoke in parables to hide information, and secondly to relay information that would be readily misunderstood. This is important. Much of the Bible is readily misunderstood. And God designed it that way. If you are a true disciple and you pray, God will reveal the truth to you in time. So pray, prepare your heart, read in humility, seek God.

Psalms 66:18 says,
"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:"

So if a believer is doing all things that you are suggesting above, and they are regarding sin or iniquity, God will not hear them when they ask for understanding on His Word.

You said:
Just so you know in 15 years on this forum, I have never seen someone change a view publicly on the forums.

I have. I have seen others change their view on the Scriptures based on what I said before (This included the teaching on Non-Resistance, the story of Noah and Ham, etc.). I have also changed my own views based on what others said before with the Bible, too (and I have been talking on Christian forums for almost 10 years).

You said:
I can prove something upwards and downwards, right and left, not in only one way, but in all ways, and they will literally not see it. Because their is a veil over their eyes. All the answers will come to you in time, if you remain humble. If you approach this as if you have studied it and obtained the knowledge, then like the general multitude you will read and not understand, "seeing you won't see, and hearing you will not comprehend." My conversation here is to help the other posters to understand the truth, I know that you won't get it, and that is fine. So back to the topic at hand....If like I said you can simply provide 7 verses that say that sanctification is part of salvation I will agree whole hearted with you, and admit defeat. But I have refuted the only verse you mention. And you are defending it unsuccessfully. All we have to do is read it to see that it's not saying what you say it is. I am not hear to convert you to my view. I wish for people to come to know Jesus and His love for us. His love is never to create a wage for us to earn His love, but His love is a free gift. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will hear the liberty bells ring and find true freedom in Christ. I hope and pray you find that soon in your life. It's night and day different. One is bondage to religion, the other is falling in love with God.

Sorry. No offense again, but I do not believe you currently will admit defeat in what the Bible says plainly. I have already shown you 30 verses that clearly teach we need Sanctification as a part of our salvation in post #150 within this thread. Until you give a word for word commentary on a select handful of those verses, I believe you are avoiding them and you are not wanting to believe what they plainly say.

In any event, I want you to know that I say this all with love and respect.

May you please be well and may God bless you today.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 8, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, verses 1-12:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

My Commentary to the first few verses to the above text:

Verse 1 - Paul urgently requests the brethren in regards to the teaching on the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and by their gathering unto him not to be in a panic about such a thing (verse 2 - "shaken in mind"). What is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ? It is the Pre-Trib Rapture followed by the 7 year tribulation which includes the 2nd coming (at the end of the 7 years). What is our gathering unto Him? This is the Pre-Trib Rapture. Important Note: The gathering up of believers (Pre-Trib Rapture) is still before the 7 year tribulation. Paul says, "and by our gathering together unto him." So this means that Paul is referring to these Thessalonians with the hope that they would be partakers of the Pre-Trib Rapture. For those in the Pre-Trib Rapture will not face the man of sin, or any of the other dark things in the 7 year tribulation.

Verse 2 - Paul assures the believers at Thessalonica in his own time that the Day of the Lord (The sixth seal) or God's wrath has not come (Side Note: The man of sin, the antichrist would still need to be revealed before that can happen) (Note: This is AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture, and Paul is having the hope that these believers will be gathered together up by Christ to be with Him before this judgment of the Day of the Lord can happen). Paul is not referring to the reader (who is a believer) as if they are going to miss out on the Rapture. Verse 1 says, "and by our gathering together unto him." (Which can either be at the Pre-Trib Rapture, or in the Mid Tribulation Gathering up of the saints by angels before God lays down the really bad stuff upon the Earth with the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath).

Verse 3 - The "Day of the Lord" or God's Wrath (i.e. The really bad stuff coming upon the Earth) mentioned in verse 2 will not happen until the following two things happen first.

(a) The falling away (needs to happen first before the Day of the Lord can happen).
I believe this happening now and it will continue to only get worse. The falling away of believers is as a whole involving the church is becoming more and more each day. Most do not want to believe ALL of what God's Word says anymore. They just want to obey those parts that they can alter from their perspective. So they will speak against many verses in their bibles and they won't believe them. The scary thing is that they do not even realize that they are speaking against the many words in their Bible. I believe the falling away will build up to an event in the the future when believers will lose their faith en mass in large numbers (unlike ever before in history).

(b) The man of sin is revealed (the antichrist) (which needs to happen first before the Day of the Lord, the six seal can happen).

So far, in verses 1-3, we do not learn of anything that supports the claim of believers living after the Pre-Trib Rapture. I also just re-read again verses 4-12 and there is also nothing of any talk of believers existing in the time after the Pre-Trib Rapture as a part of Paul's conversation to these believers at Thessalonica in his own time. If you think there is something that indicates Paul was talking exclusively to future believers in the 7 year tribulation, then by all means show the verse. But we know you cannot do that because no actual verse exists that says that. That is why you just refer to the verses generally here and you are not quoting specific words that proves your case.

v.12 needs to be noted.

"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The vast majority of translations have "have not believed" or "did not believe".

These wordings indicate someone who NEVER believed, and thus, will be condemned.

The same teaching is found in John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

The point is clear. Those who "have not believed" will be condemned.

It cannot said of someone who had EVER believed that they "have not believed".

So, from the moment one does believe, they cannot and will not be condemned.

This is why Jesus could say that those who have received eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2019

I don’t think it is a coincidence that while Romans 3:23 says for all have sinned, Acts of the Apostles 3:23 on the other hand says the following:

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

Jesus is that prophet!

In other words, think of the number 323 (3:23). Romans 3:23, and Acts of the Apostles 3:23.

createdtoworship · Nov 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
That's ridiculous. If that was what Paul was saying, he would have clarified that fact. He would have said,

"Now on this point, I speak of those believers who will face the man of sin, and who have missed out on being taken up by our Lord, ...God has chosen them to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (Belief Alone-ism Altered version of 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

However, this is not what Paul said. Paul is still talking to the believers at Thessalonica and Paul even includes himself in the conversation. Paul says,

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:13-15).

If I say "we" or "our" that includes me. So Paul is not referring exclusively to some future group of believers during the end times only. That is only you inserting something into the text that does not simply exist.

Again, you do not like what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. So you are attempting to change what the surrounding verses say in order to make it fit your view of Soteriology that is not biblical.

2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, verses 1-12:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

My Commentary to the first few verses to the above text:

Verse 1 - Paul urgently requests the brethren in regards to the teaching on the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and by their gathering unto him not to be in a panic about such a thing (verse 2 - "shaken in mind"). What is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ? It is the Pre-Trib Rapture followed by the 7 year tribulation which includes the 2nd coming (at the end of the 7 years). What is our gathering unto Him? This is the Pre-Trib Rapture. Important Note: The gathering up of believers (Pre-Trib Rapture) is still before the 7 year tribulation. Paul says, "and by our gathering together unto him." So this means that Paul is referring to these Thessalonians with the hope that they would be partakers of the Pre-Trib Rapture. For those in the Pre-Trib Rapture will not face the man of sin, or any of the other dark things in the 7 year tribulation.

Verse 2 - Paul assures the believers at Thessalonica in his own time that the Day of the Lord (The sixth seal) or God's wrath has not come (Side Note: The man of sin, the antichrist would still need to be revealed before that can happen) (Note: This is AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture, and Paul is having the hope that these believers will be gathered together up by Christ to be with Him before this judgment of the Day of the Lord can happen). Paul is not referring to the reader (who is a believer) as if they are going to miss out on the Rapture. Verse 1 says, "and by our gathering together unto him." (Which can either be at the Pre-Trib Rapture, or in the Mid Tribulation Gathering up of the saints by angels before God lays down the really bad stuff upon the Earth with the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath).

Verse 3 - The "Day of the Lord" or God's Wrath (i.e. The really bad stuff coming upon the Earth) mentioned in verse 2 will not happen until the following two things happen first.

(a) The falling away (needs to happen first before the Day of the Lord can happen).
I believe this happening now and it will continue to only get worse. The falling away of believers is as a whole involving the church is becoming more and more each day. Most do not want to believe ALL of what God's Word says anymore. They just want to obey those parts that they can alter from their perspective. So they will speak against many verses in their bibles and they won't believe them. The scary thing is that they do not even realize that they are speaking against the many words in their Bible. I believe the falling away will build up to an event in the the future when believers will lose their faith en mass in large numbers (unlike ever before in history).

(b) The man of sin is revealed (the antichrist) (which needs to happen first before the Day of the Lord, the six seal can happen).

So far, in verses 1-3, we do not learn of anything that supports the claim of believers living after the Pre-Trib Rapture. I also just re-read again verses 4-12 and there is also nothing of any talk of believers existing in the time after the Pre-Trib Rapture as a part of Paul's conversation to these believers at Thessalonica in his own time. If you think there is something that indicates Paul was talking exclusively to future believers in the 7 year tribulation, then by all means show the verse. But we know you cannot do that because no actual verse exists that says that. That is why you just refer to the verses generally here and you are not quoting specific words that proves your case.

I think you need to take your own advice, but you need to stop believing in a belief that justifies sin on some level, my friend. Why do I say this? Jude 1:4 warns against the idea of turning God's grace into a license for immorality. No offense, but I got the impression before that you are saying that a believer can sin and still be saved on some level. How so? Well, you implied before that I could not stop in lusting after women and or lying by your asking me if I stopped in doing these things (Meaning: You are suggesting that no believer can really overcome these kinds of sins, which is simply not what the Bible teaches - See 2 Corinthians 7:1).

By what you said so far: I think in your view, if a believer is fighting against sin or resisting it in some way, they are okay with God, but they really cannot overcome certain sins in this life (like lying, and or lusting after women); But of course, sins such as murder, and rampant sexual sins that society now wants us to approve of these days, no believer will do these kinds of sins). Is this correct? If I am wrong about your belief here, then please tell me otherwise.

Psalms 66:18 says,
"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:"

So if a believer is doing all things that you are suggesting above, and they are regarding sin or iniquity, God will not hear them when they ask for understanding on His Word.

I have. I have seen others change their view on the Scriptures based on what I said before (This included the teaching on Non-Resistance, the story of Noah and Ham, etc.). I have also changed my own views based on what others said before with the Bible, too (and I have been talking on Christian forums for almost 10 years).

Sorry. No offense again, but I do not believe you currently will admit defeat in what the Bible says plainly. I have already shown you 30 verses that clearly teach we need Sanctification as a part of our salvation in post #150 within this thread. Until you give a word for word commentary on a select handful of those verses, I believe you are avoiding them and you are not wanting to believe what they plainly say.

In any event, I want you to know that I say this all with love and respect.

May you please be well and may God bless you today.

again let me repeat. Thessalonians is a book of eschatology. Eschatology is future. The verse you mention speaks of a future "man of sin." A simple google search of the "thessalonians man of sin" will bring up articles that mention this is the antichrist. Then the very next verse it speaks of salvation from that time period. (the tribulation). So again you have to ask a few questions rather than assuming that verse is speaking to all Christians in every generation. Who is being saved? And what are they being saved from? Does that make sense? Lastly, lets say it was for all christians of every generation, this is literally the only verse in the Bible that says that, so we must be careful to adopt critical soteriology off of one verse. God realizes we are not that smart. That is why He wrote four gospels. He repeated Himself multiple times in the scripture. And that's a good thing. So most if not all critical doctrines are not merely supported by one verse alone, but are supported by the majority of the new testament. Some call this expositional constancy, meaning that the majority of text support a particular viewpoint. This avoids heresy. But this would violate that. I hope this helps you in your study, thanks for the comment.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 9, 2019

gradyll said:
again let me repeat. Thessalonians is a book of eschatology. Eschatology is future. The verse you mention speaks of a future "man of sin." A simple google search of the "thessalonians man of sin" will bring up articles that mention this is the antichrist. Then the very next verse it speaks of salvation from that time period. (the tribulation). So again you have to ask a few questions rather than assuming that verse is speaking to all Christians in every generation. Who is being saved? And what are they being saved from? Does that make sense? Lastly, lets say it was for all christians of every generation, this is literally the only verse in the Bible that says that, so we must be careful to adopt critical soteriology off of one verse. God realizes we are not that smart. That is why He wrote four gospels. He repeated Himself multiple times in the scripture. And that's a good thing. So most if not all critical doctrines are not merely supported by one verse alone, but are supported by the majority of the new testament. Some call this expositional constancy, meaning that the majority of text support a particular viewpoint. This avoids heresy. But this would violate that. I hope this helps you in your study, thanks for the comment.

I gave my commentary on the first couple of verses in 2 Thessalonians 2. If you disagree, then please comment on what I actually said in regards to 2 Thessalonians 2. I tried to keep my comments as close to the words as possible.

From my perspective: I believe you are just making a generalized over sweeping comment on 2 Thessalonians 2 without really reading all of the words involved. So there is no point to reply to some forced overly generalized opinion on 2 Thessalonians 2. Why don't you try giving a word for word commentary on it? My guess is that is not going to happen because the actual words refute what you are saying here. But I do like to be proven wrong, though.

createdtoworship · Nov 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I gave my commentary on the first couple of verses in 2 Thessalonians 2. If you disagree, then please comment on what I actually said in regards to 2 Thessalonians 2. I tried to keep my comments as close to the words as possible.

From my perspective: I believe you are just making a generalized over sweeping comment on 2 Thessalonians 2 without really reading all of the words involved. So there is no point to reply to some forced overly generalized opinion on 2 Thessalonians 2. Why don't you try giving a word for word commentary on it? My guess is that is not going to happen because the actual words refute what you are saying here. But I do like to be proven wrong, though.

Sir in verse 3 before the verse you are quoting mentions a "man of sin." That is a futuristic man (who most theorize) is the anti christ. So again the whole passage is future. And that would match the context of a book that was written to explain eschatology. (And I can probably post six commentaries that mention this, if I wanted to). But I refrain from posting commentaries because those are mans words, not God's words. If you figure out who the man of sin is in that passage, that may help you understand. This is a key passage regarding end times, they mention the passage that says "he that letteth will let" basically saying that the spirit of God will hinder the "man of sin" - the antichrist from coming to power currently in our history. They theorize that the presence of the church on earth, is the restraining power that holds the antichrist from coming to power.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 9, 2019

gradyll said:
Sir the very verse before the verse you are quoting mentions a "man of sin." That is a futuristic man (who most theorize) is the anti christ. So again the whole passage is future. And that would match the context of a book that was written to explain eschatology.

Sir. Verse 1 says, "by our gathering together unto him," which is in reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture (which happens before the man of sin appears). Nowhere will you see 2 Thessalonians 2 mention anything about any kind of future believer. Paul is talking about if they were in the Day of the Lord (or Day of Christ), it would mean that they missed on the Rapture (and thus see the man of sin). This would be bad news for them if this happened. But it didn't. They did not see the man of sin. Please. Just read the chapter several times in a couple of different translations.

Anyways, the problem I see with your understanding here is that you are reading a few words in the chapter within a vacuum. Meaning, you are reading a certain set of words while ignoring the context or the whole of what the chapter says. This is why I want you to offer a word for word commentary. If you do so, you will see how silly your view is here.

createdtoworship · Nov 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Sir. Verse 1 says, "by our gathering together unto him," which is in reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture (which happens before the man of sin appears). Nowhere will you see 2 Thessalonians 2 mention anything about any kind of future believer. Paul is talking about if they were in the Day of the Lord (or Day of Christ), it would mean that they missed on the Rapture (and thus see the man of sin). This would be bad news for them if this happened. But it didn't. They did not see the man of sin. Please. Just read the chapter several times in a couple of different translations.

Anyways, the problem I see with your understanding here is that you are reading a few words in the chapter within a vacuum. Meaning, you are reading a certain set of words while ignoring the context or the whole of what the chapter says. This is why I want you to offer a word for word commentary.

So thank you, discussing this helped me understand this passage a little more. I agree with you that the passage is for local believers, I was thrown off by a commentary, and that is why I stress not using commentaries in general as they are mans words. I see you posted one above. I don't typically honor commentaries in a debate, but I do read them in study. I read about 8 commentaries and this is what I came up with. Yes the sanctification was in relation to salvation, but the sanctification was not in relation to becoming more like Christ (progressive). A simple Bible study on positional sanctification verses progressive sanctification may help here:

What is positional sanctification? | GotQuestions.org

Bible Highlighter · Nov 9, 2019

gradyll said:
So thank you, discussing this helped me understand this passage a little more. I agree with you that the passage is for local believers,

I am glad you are seeing 2 Thessalonians 2 as referring to local believers.

You said:
I was thrown off by a commentary, and that is why I stress not using commentaries in general as they are mans words. I see you posted one above. I don't typically honor commentaries in a debate, but I do read them in study.

But this is not a commentary I copied from another. They are my own words based on what I see what the Bible says.

You said:
I read about 8 commentaries and this is what I came up with.

Yet, a moment ago you said, "I stress not using commentaries in general as they are man's words. I don't typically honor commentaries."

It sounds like you are contradicting yourself, my friend. Either you are for using them or you are not for using them. You read 8 commentaries and then you turn around and tell others not to use them. So you can use them, but others cannot? Doesn't sound fair. Again, in order to properly understand just try reading the text over and over in several different translations and it will become clear that Paul is referring to Sanctification as in one's actions. Look at the last two verses in the chapter. It mentions good works and it does not refer to some kind of Positional Sanctification (Where you can sin and still be saved).

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given useverlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

You said:
Yes the sanctification was in relation to salvation, but the sanctification was not in relation to becoming more like Christ (progressive). A simple Bible study on positional sanctification verses progressive sanctification may help here:

What is positional sanctification? | GotQuestions.org

While the word "sanctified" can be used to refer to the Justification Process sometimes, Got Questions is wrong on their view of Soteriology. They believe that a person can go prodigal or backslide and still be saved while doing so.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

This supports their unbiblical view on Positional Sanctification (in that a person can sin and still be saved). But is that what Jesus taught? Jesus said just looking upon a woman in lust is enough to cast a person's body entirely into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

In fact, when Jesus told us about the "Parable of the Prodigal Son," we learn that when the son came home to the father and sought forgiveness with him over living a riotous life in sin, the father said two times that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" (See Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). This is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was "dead spiritually" while living a prodigal life of sin, and he was "alive again spiritually" when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. The father said twice that his son was "lost" and he is now "found." When Christians refer to the lost in the Bible, they are referring to unsaved people. In fact, the son was sleeping around with harlots (Luke 15:30). This is why he was dead spiritually and he needed to be made "alive AGAIN" spiritually.

James 5:19-20 also teaches that you can die spiritually by backsliding into sin, and you can come back to rededicating your life to Christ by seeking his forgiveness with Him and in living for Him. A faithful brother can lead a backslidden brother back to the faith (as long as they did not deny Jesus) to seeking forgiveness with the Lord (Whereby the faithful brother should know that they are helping to save the soul of the backslidden brother from “death,” and they are helping to cover a multitude of their sins by pointing them to Jesus in seeking His forgiveness).

1 Timothy 5:6 says,

"But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (1 Timothy 5:6).

The believing widows who live in pleasure are dead spiritually while they live physically. This is what happened to the prodigal son when he was living in the pleasure of his sin. He was dead spiritually while he lived physically (during his prodigious sinful time).

So sin can still separate us from God.

In other words, I would rather stick with what Jesus and His followers say instead of what “Got Questions” says. My soul and the souls of others is too important to justify sin (as many like to teach these days).

JLB777 · Nov 9, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
So, whatever "lost" means, in your question, it CANNOT mean loss of salvation. Because that would contradict what Jesus said about His sheep.

Do the lost need salvation?

createdtoworship · Nov 9, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I am glad you are seeing 2 Thessalonians 2 as referring to local believers.

But this is not a commentary I copied from another. They are my own words based on what I see what the Bible says.

Yet, a moment ago you said, "I stress not using commentaries in general as they are man's words. I don't typically honor commentaries."

It sounds like you are contradicting yourself, my friend. Either you are for using them or you are not for using them. You read 8 commentaries and then you turn around and tell others not to use them. So you can use them, but others cannot? Doesn't sound fair. Again, in order to properly understand just try reading the text over and over in several different translations and it will become clear that Paul is referring to Sanctification as in one's actions. Look at the last two verses in the chapter. It mentions good works and it does not refer to some kind of Positional Sanctification (Where you can sin and still be saved).

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given useverlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

While the word "sanctified" can be used to refer to the Justification Process sometimes, Got Questions is wrong on their view of Soteriology. They believe that a person can go prodigal or backslide and still be saved while doing so.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

This supports their unbiblical view on Positional Sanctification (in that a person can sin and still be saved). But is that what Jesus taught? Jesus said just looking upon a woman in lust is enough to cast a person's body entirely into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

In fact, when Jesus told us about the "Parable of the Prodigal Son," we learn that when the son came home to the father and sought forgiveness with him over living a riotous life in sin, the father said two times that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" (See Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). This is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was "dead spiritually" while living a prodigal life of sin, and he was "alive again spiritually" when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. The father said twice that his son was "lost" and he is now "found." When Christians refer to the lost in the Bible, they are referring to unsaved people. In fact, the son was sleeping around with harlots (Luke 15:30). This is why he was dead spiritually and he needed to be made "alive AGAIN" spiritually.

James 5:19-20 also teaches that you can die spiritually by backsliding into sin, and you can come back to rededicating your life to Christ by seeking his forgiveness with Him and in living for Him. A faithful brother can lead a backslidden brother back to the faith (as long as they did not deny Jesus) to seeking forgiveness with the Lord (Whereby the faithful brother should know that they are helping to save the soul of the backslidden brother from “death,” and they are helping to cover a multitude of their sins by pointing them to Jesus in seeking His forgiveness).

1 Timothy 5:6 says,

"But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (1 Timothy 5:6).

The believing widows who live in pleasure are dead spiritually while they live physically. This is what happened to the prodigal son when he was living in the pleasure of his sin. He was dead spiritually while he lived physically (during his prodigious sinful time).

So sin can still separate us from God.

In other words, I would rather stick with what Jesus and His followers say instead of what “Got Questions” says. My soul and the souls of others is too important to justify sin (as many like to teach these days).

Again you misunderstand positional sactification. Instead of using a common fallacy called poisoning the well, it is where we find one problem with a source and then assume it is 100 percent wrong. Let's look at the scripture quoted on the got questions link and do a bible study there. I see your a little fighty relating to commentaries. I was just saying that in debate they don't work, but can work well for personal bible study. Just so you know I have never found a perfect bible commentary. They are just guiding tools. But ultimately they are man's words not God's words. Anyway I feel this discussion is over unless you can refute the concept of positional sanctification which is similar in concept to justification (soteriologically speaking). In conclusion, don't throw a baby out with the bath water, just because you disagree with a source one out of ten aspects does not mean the other 9 are also wrong. Use the link, comment on the half a dozen verses he uses to support the view of positional sanctification so we can move on. I posted a complete refutation including half a dozen verses. So please address those verses themselves to move on. I personally don't care what the article says, I was simply saying to refute the verses posted suggesting that there is two types of sanctification in the Bible.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 10, 2019

I said:
"So, whatever "lost" means, in your question, it CANNOT mean loss of salvation. Because that would contradict what Jesus said about His sheep."

JLB777 said:
Do the lost need salvation?

You need to cite or quote a verse or passage and then DEFINE what you mean by "lost" before your question can be answered.

In some passages, we find both sheep and goats. In other passages, we find only sheep, some of which are NOT Jesus' sheep.

So, context determines the meaning of who the sheep are and how the word "lost" is used.

This isn't a "one size fits all" kind of definition, as you obviously assume.

So I'll answer your question after you cite/quote the verse/passage and explain what "lost" means to you in that particular passage.

JLB777 · Nov 10, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"So, whatever "lost" means, in your question, it CANNOT mean loss of salvation. Because that would contradict what Jesus said about His sheep."

You need to cite or quote a verse or passage and then DEFINE what you mean by "lost" before your question can be answered.

In some passages, we find both sheep and goats. In other passages, we find only sheep, some of which are NOT Jesus' sheep.

So, context determines the meaning of who the sheep are and how the word "lost" is used.

This isn't a "one size fits all" kind of definition, as you obviously assume.

So I'll answer your question after you cite/quote the verse/passage and explain what "lost" means to you in that particular passage.

You can’t even answer a simple basic question concerning salvation.

You have to spin and twist and distort it so as to bring confusion to the the question as if the word “lost” doesn’t have a common meaning to all Christians.

Do the lost need salvation?

Can you answer this simple question?

If the lost don’t need salvation then who does?

JLB

Concord1968 · Nov 10, 2019

Sigh. It never ceases to amaze me how often the heresy of works-righteouness gets peddled around here.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 10, 2019

I said:
"So I'll answer your question after you cite/quote the verse/passage and explain what "lost" means to you in that particular passage."

JLB777 said:
You can’t even answer a simple basic question concerning salvation.

I explained WHY I can't answer your question. I have no idea what your definition of words mean. And they mean different things in different contexts.

You have to spin and twist and distort it so as to bring confusion to the the question as if the word “lost” doesn’t have a common meaning to all Christians.

If you think the word "lost" only means 1 thing all the time in all contexts, well then, I guess there just isn't any use for further discussion.

Do the lost need salvation?

When 'lost' means unsaved, then of course they do.

But, if 'lost' means having lost fellowship, then of course they don't. They need to get back into fellowship.

Can you answer this simple question?

Yes, of course I can. But only when certain words need to be clearly defined or explained first.

If the lost don’t need salvation then who does?

Again, depends on what you mean by "lost" here. If 'unsaved', they sure do need to be saved.

So I'll ask you a question.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Simple yes or no will suffice.

Are you brave enough to answer my easy question?

JLB777 · Nov 10, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"So I'll answer your question after you cite/quote the verse/passage and explain what "lost" means to you in that particular passage."

I explained WHY I can't answer your question. I have no idea what your definition of words mean. And they mean different things in different contexts.

If you think the word "lost" only means 1 thing all the time in all contexts, well then, I guess there just isn't any use for further discussion.

When 'lost' means unsaved, then of course they do.

But, if 'lost' means having lost fellowship, then of course they don't. They need to get back into fellowship.

Yes, of course I can. But only when certain words need to be clearly defined or explained first.

Again, depends on what you mean by "lost" here. If 'unsaved', they sure do need to be saved.

So I'll ask you a question.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Simple yes or no will suffice.

Are you brave enough to answer my easy question?

So this is three times you have dodged a simple question.

Do the lost need salvation?

Yes or No.

If the lost don’t need salvation then who does?

I think everyone see’s just how deceitful you are Freegrace.

JLB

createdtoworship · Nov 11, 2019

JLB777 said:
So this is three times you have dodged a simple question.

Do the lost need salvation?

Yes or No.

If the lost don’t need salvation then who does?

I think everyone see’s just how deceitful you are Freegrace.

JLB

be careful not to call someone deceitful, or a liar, or other flames. It is important to keep our head in the game. Even with people who disagree with us. If a non believer came in here, and they see us name calling and flaming one another, what does that say? Besides it is very difficult to prove someone is deceitful, that is like saying they are a liar. But how to you differentiate from someone being misinformed, and deceiving? You can't. Unless you can crawl into their ear, plug into their brain and record their motive for debating. Which we can't do. So we don't know if they are lying, or simply misinformed. I don't agree entirely with free grace, nor with you guys, I am in the middle. But I won't be name calling. It's unloving and it sets a tone here that should not be here. If it gets heated then that is a good time to walk away for awhile, unfollow the thread, post somewhere else for a week, and come back when we cool off. I exhort myself too. I simply am not strong enough to debate in the theology threads, it gets too heated there. nor the apologetics forums. Some people are so rude towards christianity I just get all defensive. But what happens more often is I get reported not them. So I have been banned for a month already and already given a further warning. Two more warnings and I get a three month ban. So I am not saying this from a perspective that I am all calm and collective, I am just saying that I struggle too with getting heated. And don't let it get to you. For one we don't know. The Bible is purposefully written with a question mark. Do you think God could have made the Bible controversial free? Sure He could have. He is God. But He didn't and that should tell us something, there is something purposeful in loving conversation about soteriology that honors God. As long as we don't teach a works righteousness, or an easy believism and teach a correct salvation. Which is why this thread was created. So anyway, I am glad you two are talking it out, but keep it loving. If someone disagrees with you, God knows. God again created a Bible that was controversial. Probably so that we would have to be disciplined enough to debate it politely and lovingly and also to pray over it, and ask His guidance.

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

salvation by grace alone (sola gracia)

salvation by faith alone (sola fide)

salvation by grace through faith

Saved by turning from our sins and trusting in Christ's salvation

saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

saved by works of the law, plus faith

In the grip of grace

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Senior Veteran

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Senior Veteran

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Newbie

In the grip of grace

Senior Veteran

Newbie

LCMS Lutheran

Senior Veteran

Newbie

In the grip of grace

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