A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Ken-1122 · Nov 8, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
You're talking about naive realism here,

No, I’m talking about reality.

FireDragon76 said:
which is just that, naive. Nobody has direct access to reality as such,

Speak for yourself.

FireDragon76 said:
this is just obvious to anybody who has studied metaphysics and epistemology. Kant worked this out several centuries ago in fact, but it's been known by different philosophers in different times and places.

I’m talking about physical realities here. C’mon. Who uses philosophy to find answers concerning that which is physical?

Ken-1122 · Nov 8, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Being offended is not automatically the same sort of harm as being denied a job or being told you are mentally ill or a bad person because you perceive yourself to be a different gender than the one you were assigned at birth.

How does that justify forcing your beliefs on me?

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 8, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
The God of the Bible as a literal, transcendent being is a fiction. As part of the human psyche, God is of course very real. I do believe human beings are spiritual beings and have some kind of existence after death, but I do not ascribe this all to some mesopotamian war god like YHWH.

So "no" is your answer then ?

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 8, 2019

Ken-1122 said:
That's not what I said. I'm saying you can believe whatever you want, but when your beliefs begin to affect me, that's where the harm begins.

?? Actually the harm started or starts sometimes long before it reaches you or another person, doesn't it ?

Ken-1122 · Nov 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
?? Actually the harm started or starts sometimes long before it reaches you or another person, doesn't it ?

No it does not.

Ana the Ist · Nov 8, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
You seriously think a choice of pronouns is equal to a broken nose?

Either words are harmful or they aren't.

Which is it?

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 8, 2019

Ken-1122 said:
No it does not.

Just like the start of a disease or a plague, it may be long before it is seen, known, felt, or realized.

Ken-1122 · Nov 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Just like the start of a disease or a plague, it may be long before it is seen, known, felt, or realized.

I think I see the point you are making.

FireDragon76 · Nov 8, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
Either words are harmful or they aren't.

Which is it?

They are harmful but not in the same way as physical violence or the denial of fundamental human rights, which ought to be prohibited by law.

Ana the Ist · Nov 9, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
They are harmful but not in the same way as physical violence

Then you wouldn't support any legislation or policies requiring someone to use certain words?

Strathos · Nov 9, 2019

I hope that, after nearly 700 replies, OP can at least agree that his 'simple solution' is not working out.

Kylie · Nov 9, 2019

Ken-1122 said:
My mistake. Gender is your biology, but gender identity is about what is in your head.

Biological sex is your biology.

You may find this link of use. Sex, Gender, and Gender Identity

Ken-1122 · Nov 9, 2019

Kylie said:
Biological sex is your biology.

You may find this link of use. Sex, Gender, and Gender Identity

(According to the link

"Sex is a label — male or female — that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth"

Here I disagree! Sex is not assigned by the doctor at birth, it is DETERMINED by the doctor at birth

(link)
"Gender is much more complex: It’s a social and legal status, and set of expectations from society, about behaviors, characteristics, and thoughts. Each culture has standards about the way that people should behave based on their gender."

Here I disagree also. This idea that cultures of today have standards about the way men and women should behave and think has been dispelled years ago. 100 years ago; perhaps but today? No. If you disagree, perhaps you can provide a list of behaviors our culture says only men should do that women should not, and a list of behaviors only women should do that men should not.
IMO according to this definition, gender no longer exists.

Ken-1122 · Nov 9, 2019

Strathos said:
I hope that, after nearly 700 replies, OP can at least agree that his 'simple solution' is not working out.

There was never anything to work out. After nearly 700 replies, some people agree, some do not; as expected.

Kylie · Nov 9, 2019

Ken-1122 said:
(According to the link
"Sex is a label — male or female — that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth"

Here I disagree! Sex is not assigned by the doctor at birth, it is DETERMINED by the doctor at birth

Sorry, but this is wrong.

All a doctor can do is look at your genitals and say whether you have a penis or a vagina. To accurately determine a person's sex, you need to check the person's chromosomes. And this is almost never done, certainly not as part of the regular checks that babies get at birth. So the doctor is determining nothing more than what genitals the baby has, and that's not a 100% accurate way to determine biological sex.

(link)
"Gender is much more complex: It’s a social and legal status, and set of expectations from society, about behaviors, characteristics, and thoughts. Each culture has standards about the way that people should behave based on their gender."

Here I disagree also. This idea that cultures of today have standards about the way men and women should behave and think has been dispelled years ago. 100 years ago; perhaps but today? No. If you disagree, perhaps you can provide a list of behaviors our culture says only men should do that women should not, and a list of behaviors only women should do that men should not.
IMO according to this definition, gender no longer exists.

Why do you think that these things can't change. True, the ideas we have today about how men and women behave are not the same as they were 100 years ago, but why does that make them any less valid?

Kylie · Nov 9, 2019

Ken-1122 said:
There was never anything to work out. After nearly 700 replies, some people agree, some do not; as expected.

Not what you'd expect if the solution was actually simple....

Ken-1122 · Nov 9, 2019

Kylie said:
Sorry, but this is wrong.

All a doctor can do is look at your genitals and say whether you have a penis or a vagina.

But the doctor does not decide if you have a penis or a vagina, so he is not assigning anything, he is making a determination.

Kylie said:
To accurately determine a person's sex, you need to check the person's chromosomes. And this is almost never done, certainly not as part of the regular checks that babies get at birth. So the doctor is determining nothing more than what genitals the baby has, and that's not a 100% accurate way to determine biological sex.

Whether you agree with the doctors method of determining or not is irrelevant; the doctor is not making a decision on the baby’s sex, the doctor has no choice in the matter, thus the doctor is not assigning anything, he is making a determination based on his observation.

Kylie said:
Why do you think that these things can't change. True, the ideas we have today about how men and women behave are not the same as they were 100 years ago, but why does that make them any less valid?

Because they don’t exist. If you believe they do, answer my question.

Kylie said:
Not what you'd expect if the solution was actually simple….

A simple solution only means it is easy to employ; it doesn’t mean everybody will agree on it.

Kylie · Nov 10, 2019

Ken-1122 said:
But the doctor does not decide if you have a penis or a vagina, so he is not assigning anything, he is making a determination.

You seem to be deliberately missing my point here.

Whether you agree with the doctors method of determining or not is irrelevant; the doctor is not making a decision on the baby’s sex, the doctor has no choice in the matter, thus the doctor is not assigning anything, he is making a determination based on his observation.

Okay, so he is making a determination. Once again I shall point out that quibbling over wordplay is the last refuge of the person who doesn't have a point.

And I will point out ONCE AGAIN that the shape of a person's genitals is not always a reliable indicator of what their chromosomes are.

Because they don’t exist. If you believe they do, answer my question.

So if I told you about someone who was wearing a dress and perfume and had a flower in their long hair, you'd think it was equally likely that the person identified as a man as they identified as a woman?

A simple solution only means it is easy to employ; it doesn’t mean everybody will agree on it.

Simple solution for climate change - kill everyone.

That's how sensible your solution is.

Ken-1122 · Nov 10, 2019

Kylie said:
Okay, so he is making a determination. Once again I shall point out that quibbling over wordplay is the last refuge of the person who doesn't have a point.

You provided the link, I pointed out what I disagreed with concerning the link. Your link said the doctor determines a baby’s sex at birth; speaking of the doctor making a decision about someone else. I find this claim absurd and felt a need to point it out to you. Instead of admitting I was right, you attempt to trivialize it calling it “wordplay”; why am I not surprised.

Kylie said:
And I will point out ONCE AGAIN that the shape of a person's genitals is not always a reliable indicator of what their chromosomes are.

That has nothing to do with anything I said.

Kylie said:
So if I told you about someone who was wearing a dress and perfume and had a flower in their long hair, you'd think it was equally likely that the person identified as a man as they identified as a woman?

If I told you my best friend played football in College, would you think it was equally likely that my friend identified a man or a woman?
Does this mean society says women should not play football?

Kylie said:
Simple solution for climate change - kill everyone.
That's how sensible your solution is.

Great! So now you are equating a decision to not concern myself with someone’s gender identity as equal to genocide? Priceless!

Kylie · Nov 10, 2019

Ken-1122 said:
You provided the link, I pointed out what I disagreed with concerning the link. Your link said the doctor determines a baby’s sex at birth; speaking of the doctor making a decision about someone else. I find this claim absurd and felt a need to point it out to you. Instead of admitting I was right, you attempt to trivialize it calling it “wordplay”; why am I not surprised.

Yes, you are resorting to wordplay, because you knew perfectly well that I was talking about the doctor examining the baby's genitals and placing the baby into the "boy" box or the "girl" box based on that examination.

That has nothing to do with anything I said.

You said the doctor makes a determination on the baby's sex. I have stated numerous times now that this can't be reliably done unless the doctor checks the baby's chromosomes.

If I told you my best friend played football in College, would you think it was equally likely that my friend identified a man or a woman?
Does this mean society says women should not play football?

In today's society, that would not tell me much, because both men and women play football while in college.

Back in the 1940s, it would tell me a lot, because there probably weren't too many women's college football teams back then.

Which just proves the point I made in post 675 - ideas about gender can change.

Great! So now you are equating a decision to not concern myself with someone’s gender identity as equal to genocide? Priceless!

Just pointing out that my solution is simple, and totally unworkable, just like yours.

A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

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