Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said: ↑The Apostle Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in the passage below.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

mkgal1 said:
....the question - addressed in Galatians 4 - was "who is your mother?".....works of the flesh or His promise?
From Adam Clarke's commentary on Gal 4:
Verse 30
What saith the Scripture? - (In Genesis 21:10 ) : Cast out the bond woman and her son: and what does this imply in the present case? Why, that the present Jerusalem and her children shall be cast out of the favor of God, and shall not be heirs with the son of the free woman - shall not inherit the blessings promised to Abraham, because they believe not in the promised seed.

Have you checked out this post?
Notice the COURT being cast out of Herod's Temple in Revelation 11:2.........

Same form of the Greek word used for the casting out of Hagar/1st century Jerusalem..........

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY

From of G1544 in Revelation 11:2 "BE CASTING OUT!"

G1544 ἔκβαλε
Second Aorist Imperative{!} Active
2nd Person Singular

Galatians 4:30
But what/any is saying the Scripture 'be Casting-Out/ekbale<ἔκβαλε<1544> the maid-servant and the son of her, for not no shall be tenanting/inheriting the son of the maid-servant with the son of the freeone.

Revelation 11:2
and the Court<833> outside of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!/ekbale<ἔκβαλε<1544>(5628) out-side,
and thou mayest not be measuring her, that she was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall be trampling forty and two months
======================
This form of G1544 also used in the 3 verses concerning removing the plank from one's eye.......Matthew 7:5 Mark 9:47 Luke 6:42

Mat 7:5 “Hypocrite! First be removing/ Casting-Out!/ekbale<ἔκβαλε<1544> the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's
===============================
G1544

ἐκβάλλω; imperfect 3 person plural ἐξέβαλλον (Mark 6:13 (Tr marginal reading aorist)); future ἐκβάλω; pluperfect ἐκβεβλήκειν (without augment, Mark 16:9; cf. Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; Buttmann, 33 (29)); 2 aorist ἐξέβαλον; (passive and middle present ἐκβάλλομαι); 1 aorist passive ἐξεβλήθην; future passive ἐκβληθήσομαι; (from Homer down); the Sept. generally for גָּרַשׁ, occasionally for הוצִיא, הורִישׁ, הִשְׁלִיך; to cast out; to drive out; to send out;

1. with the included notion of more or less violence;

a. to drive out, (cast out): a person, Matthew 21:12; Mark 9:15; John 2:15 (ἐκ); Luke 20:12, etc.; passive Matthew 8:12 (T WH (rejected) marginal reading ἐξελεύσονται); δαιμόνια, Matthew 7:22; Matthew 8:16, 31; Matthew 9:33; Mark 1:34, 39; Luke 11:20; Luke 13:32, etc.; ἐκ τίνος, Mark 7:26; ἀπό, Mark 16:9 (L WH Tr text παρά); ἐν τίνι, by, through (Winer's Grammar, 389 (364)), Matthew 9:34; Matthew 12:24, 27; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15, 19f; τῷ ὀνόματι τίνος, Matthew 7:22; (Mark 9:38 Rst G); ἐπί τῷ ὀνόματι τίνος, Luke 9:49 (WH Tr marginal reading ἐν; ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Mark 9:38 Relz L T Tr WH); λόγῳ, Matthew 8:16; τινα ἔξω τῆς πόλεως, Luke 4:29; Acts 7:58.

b. to cast out: τινα followed by ἔξω, John 6:37; John 9:34; John 12:31 (namely, out of the world, i. e. be deprived of the power and influence he exercises in the world); Luke 13:28; ἔξω with the genitive, Matthew 21:39; Mark 12:8; Luke 20:15. a thing: excrement from the belly into the sink, Matthew 15:17; middle ἐκβαλλόμενοι (i. e. for themselves, that they might the more easily save the ship and thereby their lives) τόν σῖτον εἰς τήν θάλασσαν, Acts 27:38.

c. to expel a person from a society: to banish from a family, Galatians 4:30 (Genesis 21:10); ἐκ (Tdf. omits ἐκ) τῆς ἐκκλησίας, 3 John 1:10.
d. to compel one to depart: ἀπό τῶν ὁρίων, Acts 13:50; to bid one depart, in stern though not violent language, Matthew 9:25; Mark 5:40; Acts 9:40; Acts 16:37 (where distinguished from ἐξάγειν); to bid one go forth to do some business, Matthew 9:38; Luke 10:2.

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1
The Camp--The Gate--
The Court--The Bronze Altar--The Water Laver
The Tabernacle--
The First Veil--
The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--
The Second Veil
The Mercy Seat and Ark--
The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

quote: "This is a Virtual Reality tour of the Biblical Tabernacle. It was an incredibly valuable structure. In today's currency it would probably be worth over $100,000,000.00 (100 million). It was built by the Children of Israel, according to the instructions given them by God. Every part of it is filled with incredible symbolic meaning. It seems like every truth of the Bible can be found encoded in symbolic form in the Tabernacle! If you want to know more about the Tabernacle and it's meaning (and also about Bible prophecy) see my videos here on youtube and also on my website."

Website: http://SanctuaryofYeshua.wordpress.com. This virtual tour is part of the Virtual Tabernacle project, which can be found at www.VirtualTabernacle.com. It is intended for google cardboard style VR headsets, Oculus Rift, smartphones, desktop computers, laptops, etc. It can also be used by speakers and teachers to give instruction on the symbolic meaning of the Sanctuary.

[/quote][/quote]

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
I am not a "Zionist", but I will have to accept the "Partial-Futurist" label.

Some here claim to be a "Partial-Preterist", but cannot accept the "Partial-Futurist" label, because they are really "Full-Preterists", in disquise.
They do not wish to be labeled as promoting a "heretical" doctrine.

.

Are you claiming that if anyone, such as myself, views 70AD Jerusalem as the great City in Revelation is not an orthodox preterist?

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said: ↑
Based on your logic, since sacrifices are going on today, it must not be over at this time.
It was either finished at Calvary, or it was not.

mkgal1 said: ↑
No - that's NOT based on my logic at all. Modern Orthodox Judaism is NOT related to our religion. What practices they choose to follow....it's all on them......it's their idea, not God's.

I don't understand why you're so dogmatic about this. Where do you get the idea that it's "finished at Calvary or it was not"? You do realize that there was a time that Jesus had said He'd finished all His Father had sent Him to do even before He went to the cross.....right?

John 17:4 ~ "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."

mkgal1 said:
Just pointing out that this question remains unanswered ("where do you get the idea that 'it's finished at CAlvary or it was not' ?").

Good question.

Jesus finished the atonement of the Jewish Nation at the Cross.[and the days of vengeance in 70AD]
As a result, the Jewish priests no longer had to light up the Menorah inside the holy place, as light from the outside could now come into it and it was no longer Holy to the Lord.

Matthew 27:51 Then behold! the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, [Mark 15:38 Luke 23:45 Revelation 11:9]

Revelation 11:19 And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His Sanctuary,
and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail

YLY [1 of the very few versions that use "Sanctuary" instead of "Temple"
Rev 21:
22
And a Sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its sanctuary, and the Lamb,
23
and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it is the Lamb;
24
and the nations of the saved in its light shall walk,
and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it,[/quote]

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Are you claiming that if anyone, such as myself, views 70AD Jerusalem as the great City in Revelation is not an orthodox preterist?

Anyone who is not a partial-futurist would not be an orthodox preterist.

.

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
("where do you get the idea that 'it's finished at CAlvary or it was not' ?").

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

.

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Jewish Christians kept the Law until 70AD

Jesus Christ is the only person to ever keep the Law.

.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Anyone who is not a partial-futurist would not be an orthodox preterist.

.

"Futurist" has certain meaning behind it - but in the way you're meaning it - allowing for some things to be yet fulfilled.....I would consider myself to fall into that category (bodily resurrection is yet future - as is His future return). I described that in the OP of this thread.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

.

Did you not finish reading the rest of that post? Because I cited a time where Jesus had said He had completed ALL the work His Father had sent Him to do even BEFORE He had gone to the cross. So....IOW....He had said "it is finished" before the cross (when we know for sure He wasn't "finished").

John 17:4 ~ I glorified You on the earth, having completed the work that You have given Me that I should do.

In claiming the Cross as "the end" of His work - you're seeming to minimize all that came after that (especially the importance of the Resurrection and Pentecost). I'm grateful that Jesus didn't close up His book and leave the story where you're ending it. There is so much more glory by reading on further.....

Christ’s Descent into Hades – icon explanation

......and His power and sovereignty didn't even stop here at the resurrection. His story doesn't have an ending - the way I see it.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Are you claiming that if anyone, such as myself, views 70AD Jerusalem as the great City in Revelation is not an orthodox preterist?

BABerean2 said:
Anyone who is not a partial-futurist would not be an orthodox preterist.

.

So I take it that viewing the great City in Revelation as symbolizing 70AD Jerusalem is an orthodox Preterist view?

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
So I take it that viewing the great City in Revelation as symbolizing 70AD Jerusalem is an orthodox Preterist view?

Absolutely. The line that is crossed into heterodoxy is when a person claims that resurrection is only spiritual (old life/new life......putting on Christ.....dying with Him & raising to new life) and will NOT be physical. All of those concepts are biblical examples of resurrection language....but that isn't the ONLY understanding of orthodox resurrection. His resurrection was physical - so it is orthodox to believe ours will be as well.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Are you claiming that if anyone, such as myself, views 70AD Jerusalem as the great City in Revelation is not an orthodox preterist?

BABerean2 said: ↑
Anyone who is not a partial-futurist would not be an orthodox preterist.

How does that answer my question?

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
So I take it that viewing the great City in Revelation as symbolizing 70AD Jerusalem is an orthodox Preterist view?

mkgal1 said:
Absolutely. The line that is crossed into heterodoxy is when a person claims that resurrection is only spiritual (old life/new life......putting on Christ.....dying with Him & raising to new life) and will NOT be physical. All of those concepts are biblical examples of resurrection language....but that isn't the ONLY understanding of orthodox resurrection. His resurrection was physical - so it is orthodox to believe ours will be as well.

Hello mkgal. Good post.

BABerean2 created this thread with a question but neglected to include a POLL. He can still do that by clicking on "thread tools" then "create a poll".

Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?
============================================
If I am not mistaken, BABberean2 believes Jerusalem is that City, BUT, he views it as future.

However, I did create a poll thread concerning that great City in Revelation 18, 19.
It hasn't had much input or votes so far.........

I could use more input along with more votes on this. :bow:

What great City is showing in Revelation

*
70AD Jerusalem
2 vote(s)
33.3%
Jerusalem in the future
1 vote(s)
16.7%
The literal city of Babylon
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Some other City
0 vote(s)
0.0%
It is not a literal city
1 vote(s)
16.7%
I don't know at this time
2 vote(s)
33.3%
Other
0 vote(s)
0.0%

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Did you not finish reading the rest of that post? Because I cited a time where Jesus had said He had completed ALL the work His Father had sent Him to do even BEFORE He had gone to the cross. So....IOW....He had said "it is finished" before the cross (when we know for sure He wasn't "finished").

John 17:4 ~ I glorified You on the earth, having completed the work that You have given Me that I should do.

I just finished eating my soup, but not my dessert.

.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
I just finished eating my soup, but not my dessert.

.

I don't know what that has to do with this (are you just catching us up to date on your day?).....but there is no "BUT" in this statement of Jesus' made prior to the cross:

John 17:4 ~ I glorified You on the earth, having completed the work that You have given Me that I should do.

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
From what I understand - this issue Paul was addressing was about one specific part of the Law (circumcision). The people of Galatia were mostly uncircumcised Gentiles (of whom the Law of Moses wasn't relevant)....and the Judaizers were spreading the heresy that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be followers of Christ. The trouble was - again, as far as I understand - this was creating a hybrid religion that God didn't intend. The Law was fading away (in the fullness of His time it would disappear)....and circumcision wasn't meant for Gentiles. They were heirs of a "better promise" going back to Galatians 3 (still with Abraham as their shared father with the Jews just as Ishmael & Isaac shared Abraham as their father):

Galatians 3:29 ~ And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

....the question - addressed in Galatians 4 - was "who is your mother?".....works of the flesh or His promise? Those that aligned themselves with the bondwoman (relying on circumcision for salvation) and rejected the "free woman" as their "mother" were due to be cast out and denied inheritance from the Father.

From Adam Clarke's commentary on Gal 4:
Verse 30
What saith the Scripture? - (In Genesis 21:10 ) : Cast out the bond woman and her son: and what does this imply in the present case? Why, that the present Jerusalem and her children shall be cast out of the favor of God, and shall not be heirs with the son of the free woman - shall not inherit the blessings promised to Abraham, because they believe not in the promised seed.

There is nothing in Galatians 4 about circumcision.

It is about the two covenants.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Circumcision was not put in place at mount Sinai.

.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
There is nothing in Galatians 4 about circumcision.

It is about the two covenants.

Of which, circumcision was one critical aspect of what converts to Judaism were supposed to do in order to be considered an Israelite under the old covenant:

Genesis 17:1-14 ~
The Covenant of Circumcision

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.
I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.
This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
So I take it that viewing the great City in Revelation as symbolizing 70AD Jerusalem is an orthodox Preterist view?

There are many Orthodox Christians today who hold that view. Ken Gentry is one of them.
However, they do not believe we are now living in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

.

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Of which, circumcision was one critical aspect of what converts to Judaism were supposed to do in order to be considered an Israelite under the old covenant:

Genesis 17:1-14 ~
The Covenant of Circumcision
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.
I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.
This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Circumcision is a part of the Abrahamic Covenant.
The son of the bondwoman was also circumcised.

.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Circumcision is a part of the Abrahamic Covenant.
The son of the bondwoman was also circumcised.

.

It's how people became "children of the flesh" (Old Covenant Israelites) as opposed to "children of the promise" - New Covenant Israel (which is what was being set against each other in the New Testament/New Covenant).

Romans 9:8 ~ So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

Erik Nelson · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

.

John 19:30 <---> John 17:4

The Cross finished Jesus' earthly ministry, the work God the Father gave the Son to do on earth

"it" = one thing = Jesus' earthly ministry "marching orders"
!= every single prophetic thing

Hebrews 8:13, the Old Covenant was still "passing away" c.63 AD when Saint Paul wrote to the Jerusalem Jewish Christian congregation, to console them in the wake of their Bishop James' martyrdom

NIV Study Bible Notes

19:30 It is finished. Apparently the loud cry of Mt 27:50; Mk 15:37. Jesus died as a victor and had “finished” (v. 28) what he came to do (cf. 17:4).

Remember,

thirsting = Psalms 22:15
vinegar = Psalms 69:21
"it is finished" (John 19:30)
"into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46) = Psalm 31:5

21 Praise be to the Lord,
for he showed me the wonders of his love
when I was in a city under siege.
22 In my alarm I said,
“I am cut off from your sight!”
Yet you heard my cry for mercy
when I called to you for help.

23 Love the Lord, all his faithful people!
The Lord preserves those who are true to him,
but the proud he pays back in full.
24 Be strong and take heart,
all you who hope in the Lord.

Erik Nelson · Nov 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Did you not finish reading the rest of that post? Because I cited a time where Jesus had said He had completed ALL the work His Father had sent Him to do even BEFORE He had gone to the cross. So....IOW....He had said "it is finished" before the cross (when we know for sure He wasn't "finished").

John 17:4 ~ I glorified You on the earth, having completed the work that You have given Me that I should do.

In claiming the Cross as "the end" of His work - you're seeming to minimize all that came after that (especially the importance of the Resurrection and Pentecost). I'm grateful that Jesus didn't close up His book and leave the story where you're ending it. There is so much more glory by reading on further.....

Christ’s Descent into Hades – icon explanation

......and His power and sovereignty didn't even stop here at the resurrection. His story doesn't have an ending - the way I see it.

just a thought about your icon, the double bar would seem to represent the actual physical crossbar of the crucifix (to which hands/wrists were nailed) plus Pilate's inscription ("king of the Jews") above?

The simplification suggests stick figure line drawings in catacombs ??

Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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