How did the ark Kinds give rise to extant taxa?

SLP

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The house cat is a different kind. Kind of obvious given the size difference. The same kind can breed together.
So whether or not something is a "kind" depends on purely arbitrary and ad hoc criteria, depending upon what argument one needs to make Got it.

Be warned, however, that this sort of arbitrariness will sink your ark.
I don't hold to evolution at all.
But you have to in order to explain post-flood speciation.
If by that you mean big cats or other animals who look to be the same kind but cannot breed together, I already answered that.
No, you asserted it.
Mutations and lost DNA or they are not the same kind even if similar. The creationist view of mutations is benign or harmful.
What good is a view it it rests on mere assertion?

If whether or not critters can interbreed is one of your ad hoc criteria, this should give you pause:

Anat Rec. 1977 Aug;188(4):477-87.
Sperm/egg interaction: the specificity of human spermatozoa.
Bedford JM.

Abstract
Human spermatozoa display unusually limited affinities in their interaction with oocytes of other species. They adhered to and, when capacitated, penetrated the vestments of the oocyte of an ape--the gibbon, Hylobates lar--both in vivo and in vitro. On the other hand, human spermatozoa would not even attach to the zona surface of sub-hominoid primate (baboon, rhesus monkey, squirrel monkey), nor to the non-primate eutherian oocytes tested. Among the apes the gibbon stands furthest from man. Thus, although the specificity of human spermatozoa is not confined to man alone, it probably is restricted to the Hominoidea. ...​

This means that if allowed to continue, it is plausible that human sperm could fertilize gibbon oocytes. I'm guessing some more ad hoc stuff will rescue your position.

I am not a scientist, don't claim to be a scientist and am not really interested in arguing from a science standpoint.
And yet you employ scientific arguments. Not very good ones, by the way, but scientific nonetheless. Your science fails.
Read my posts you will see I don't believe in claiming the Bible is a science book.
Good - I applaud that.
It is however, my framework and any science that contradicts that I do not hold to.
I retract that applause.

Do you really think that is a rational position to take? You are merely dismissing data/evidence because it does not comport with your preferred religious tales based on uncorroborated miracle tales from ancient times.
I did some study on genetics at college years ago, just basic stuff, that was quite interesting. If you want to argue science there are other creationists on here happy to do so.
They are happy, but not very well informed.
I'm sure that is all very interesting. Similarities simply mean there are similarities.
Here, your non-science background shines through.
That doesn't prove or disprove common descent.
How would you even know, given what you've admitted?
That is an evolutionist theory to answer why they are similar.
Actually, those papers were not even explicitly about evolution, so I don't know what you are referring to.
There are published experiments confirming the reliability of DNA analysis in reconstructing evolutionary relationships using tested analytical methods. The changes in DNA sequence/content match hypotheses of descent.
As you already indicated, you merely reject things that do not match up with your biblical view, so why should we entertain your attempted dismissal of science via rather naive 'science' arguments?
The same creator made them all out of the same materials, so the question back is why wouldn't they be similar?

Or better yet, why rely on the fallacy of begging the question?
Evidence can be presented supporting evolution. What - other than ancient, uncorroborated and evidence-free tales - can you present for your view?
As an evolutionst do you think we (creationists) need them to all be vastly different?
I don't - you folks seem to enjoy constraining your Creator's supposed powers of creation to relying on a few basic forms, and reusing/re-purposing them.
Well, we don't. And why do evolutionists keep shoving similarities in my face like it prooves something? All it proves is that they are similar. The difference comes down to how you and I interpret those similarities.
Not really. Not at all, in fact. If it were really 'just similarities', you might have a point. But it is NOT mere similarities - it is, among other things, the patterns of shared unique mutations, the patterns of biogeographic distribution, etc.
So tell me again how that one-cell creature became a big cat.
For you to merely reject it because it does not prop up your tribal stories?

How about, for once, present evidence FOR creation? Tell me - for the first time ever - how a tribal deity transformed dust of the ground into Adam.
 
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loveofourlord

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So whether or not something is a "kind" depends on purely arbitrary and ad hoc criteria, depending upon what argument one needs to make Got it.

Be warned, however, that this sort of arbitrariness will sink your ark.

But you have to in order to explain post-flood speciation.
No, you asserted it.

What good is a view it it rests on mere assertion?

If whether or not critters can interbreed is one of your ad hoc criteria, this should give you pause:

Anat Rec. 1977 Aug;188(4):477-87.
Sperm/egg interaction: the specificity of human spermatozoa.
Bedford JM.

Abstract
Human spermatozoa display unusually limited affinities in their interaction with oocytes of other species. They adhered to and, when capacitated, penetrated the vestments of the oocyte of an ape--the gibbon, Hylobates lar--both in vivo and in vitro. On the other hand, human spermatozoa would not even attach to the zona surface of sub-hominoid primate (baboon, rhesus monkey, squirrel monkey), nor to the non-primate eutherian oocytes tested. Among the apes the gibbon stands furthest from man. Thus, although the specificity of human spermatozoa is not confined to man alone, it probably is restricted to the Hominoidea. ...​

This means that if allowed to continue, it is plausible that human sperm could fertilize gibbon oocytes. I'm guessing some more ad hoc stuff will rescue your position.


And yet you employ scientific arguments. Not very good ones, by the way, but scientific nonetheless. Your science fails.

Good - I applaud that.

I retract that applause.

Do you really think that is a rational position to take? You are merely dismissing data/evidence because it does not comport with your preferred religious tales based on uncorroborated miracle tales from ancient times.

They are happy, but not very well informed.

Here, your non-science background shines through.

How would you even know, given what you've admitted?

Actually, those papers were not even explicitly about evolution, so I don't know what you are referring to.
There are published experiments confirming the reliability of DNA analysis in reconstructing evolutionary relationships using tested analytical methods. The changes in DNA sequence/content match hypotheses of descent.
As you already indicated, you merely reject things that do not match up with your biblical view, so why should we entertain your attempted dismissal of science via rather naive 'science' arguments?

Or better yet, why rely on the fallacy of begging the question?
Evidence can be presented supporting evolution. What - other than ancient, uncorroborated and evidence-free tales - can you present for your view?

I don't - you folks seem to enjoy constraining your Creator's supposed powers of creation to relying on a few basic forms, and reusing/re-purposing them.
Not really. Not at all, in fact. If it were really 'just similarities', you might have a point. But it is NOT mere similarities - it is, among other things, the patterns of shared unique mutations, the patterns of biogeographic distribution, etc.

For you to merely reject it because it does not prop up your tribal stories?

How about, for once, present evidence FOR creation? Tell me - for the first time ever - how a tribal deity transformed dust of the ground into Adam.

of course as I've pointed out many times, the biggest issues isn't the simularities that we expect to see, but the differences and simularities we wouldn't expect to sees, where we see especially in humans, and whales, parts of their DNA that are lazy if there is no evolution as they contain alot of DNA that come from the supposed evolutionary ancestors. Again it's like ford making a new car based on a truck and using all the parts, just haphazardly welding parts they don't use to the frame of the car, same designer same design aftr all.
 
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SLP

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One of many potential examples for those seeking the truth:
(internet search mount st helens)

Learning the lessons of Mount St Helens - creation.com
Lessons from Mount St Helens - creation.com
Learning the lessons of Mount St Helens How its eruption backs biblical history. by Tas Walker. It was not until I visited Mount St Helens volcano in Washington State, USA, that I fully appreciated the immensity of its 1980 explosion. Over many years, I had learned a lot about the eruption, watching videos, listening to lectures, and reading ...
What does that have to do with Ark kinds?
 
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SLP

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Let’s see if we’ve figured it out…
This will be rich...
everything got off the ark, and went in the direction God directed them because He knew some plants and animals would only survive in certain areas.
Begging the question.
When they encountered huge bodies of water, animals got on large ‘floating mats or drifts’ (all appropriate plant life was growing on the drifts, after all it was a big flood with a lot of debris no doubt), maybe even crossed land bridges in some instances, and some possibly accompanied people who were dispersing also.
Nice co-option.
We’re not absolutely sure of the interpretation of the time involved, but everything multiplied and diversified relatively quick (that certainly happened on a smaller scale in my hometown, and over the last 20 years). And, most importantly, it doesn’t dispute the Bible. Got it!
Sure - all such evidence-free, ad hoc, fantasy-driven assertions don't dispute the bible.

Got any evidence for the massive required genetic alterations that had to have occurred for your fantasy to have merit?
 
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SLP

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so your response is to just make up a bunch of stuff that has no evidence for beyond, the bible must be interpeted the way I interpet it? Give some evidence for such a thing, and even possible again guess what, it's trying to solve a problem with a miracle with a even bigger more insane miracle.
That is, as I'm sure you know, THE answer that most creationists give.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I just listed 5 verses that tell us there was no death before sin.
No death at all, changing to death and bloodshed is a pretty large change in the worlds governing laws.
WONDERFUL TRUTH !
All Scripture is in perfect harmony that it was sin that brought death and curses.
 
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Show me a Biblical passage that says "animals did not eat other animals".
Before you jump on this tooth & toenail... please take note that I think it's possible there were animal deaths before the Fall. That's in line with the possibility of deep time and dinosaur deaths (for example), and with my continual defense that there is a difference in animals and man. Having said that, Genesis 1:29-30 KJV, makes it pretty clear that all animals were herbivores.

If animals were herbivores before the flood, why are there fossils showing one animal having eaten another within rock layers said to have been deposited by the flood?
I have no doubt the catastrophic nature of the Flood described in the Bible could have put an egg in a bottle.

If you want to claim there was no death before sin you need to find a passage in the bible before Paul makes that claim. Paul makes the claim based on what? Where is the (non-Pauine) support for the claim?
Well, I'm going out on a limb here, and say because God called His creation 'very good' (in Genesis 1), and that He meant no death (for man anyway), since it is referred to elsewhere as our enemy.
You claim that the bible says physical laws were changed, BUT you rely solely on your interpretation of unsupported assertions by Paul and you cannot say which laws were changed? That's an indication that you're making stuff up. That's really not convincing.
Creation Science cannot argue with physics anymore than biological science can.
 
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SLP

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So you don't believe Mount St. Helens erupted ? Nor the effects that followed the eruption ?
Of course I believe it. I also believe that creationists embellish, twist, distort, and even lie about it.

Like how creationist geologist Steve Austin claimed that his study at St. Helens converted him from an old earth evolutionists to a YEC just like that - even though he had been writing creationist essays for at least 4 years prior to the eruption.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Of course I believe it. I also believe that creationists embellish, twist, distort, and even lie about it.
So don't go by what the 'creationists' say. Everyone, evolutionists and creationists may be found to lie, wittingly and unwittingly.
Instead, go find out for yourself what happened.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Well, I'm going out on a limb here, and say because God called His creation 'very good' (in Genesis 1), and that He meant no death (for man anyway), since it is referred to elsewhere as our enemy.
Are you prepared to go out on a limb and address my question about Genesis 3:22? How could Adam have been set to die if there was no death?
Creation Science cannot argue with physics anymore than biological science can.
Funny that. Creationists argue with physics (case in point), but Creation Science(TM) cannot.
 
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Are you prepared to go out on a limb and address my question about Genesis 3:22? How could Adam have been set to die if there was no death?
Yes, I'll go out on a limb... there were two trees (Genesis 2:9 for identification). And, there was death if he ate from the wrong tree (Genesis 2:16-17). Adam chose... poorly.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Yes, I'll go out on a limb... there were two trees (Genesis 2:9 for identification). And, there was death if he ate from the wrong tree (Genesis 2:16-17). Adam chose... poorly.
Ok. Would you now like to address the question? How could Adam have been going to die if there was no death?
 
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Ok. Would you now like to address the question? How could Adam have been going to die if there was no death?
I feel certain he would have asked what death was when he was given the instructions, whether it was currenty happening, or not... don't you?
 
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pitabread

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Before you jump on this tooth & toenail... please take note that I think it's possible there were animal deaths before the Fall. That's in line with the possibility of deep time and dinosaur deaths (for example), and with my continual defense that there is a difference in animals and man. Having said that, Genesis 1:29-30 KJV, makes it pretty clear that all animals were herbivores.

Just in the last couple of days, I've had multiple of your creationist brethren tell me there was no death before the Fall.

So many it's something you guys can work out among yourselves and let me know when you've figured it out. ;)
 
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Just in the last couple of days, I've had multiple of your creationist brethren tell me there was no death before the Fall.

So many it's something you guys can work out among yourselves and let me know when you've figured it out. ;)
So, all evolutionists are in agreement with every aspect of evolution, and see it exactly the same?
 
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