Salvation is a process of co-operation between man and God

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Swan7

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How about the Grace of the Lord Jesus is so great that when the thief repented and declared Jesus Lord (yes he did) then Jesus saved him. There was no process sorry.

There is. You are just unwilling to see/read it for some reason. That's unfortunate.
As I said before, and if you even read the passages given to you, the thief changed his mind. How is that not a process?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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How about the Grace of the Lord Jesus is so great that when the thief repented and declared Jesus Lord (yes he did) then Jesus saved him. There was no process sorry.
God knows the heart. That thief may have done things for God which only God knows...one good deed is as you said...He declared Jesus the Christ which is a confession before men and then too all who then read and will read his account have this testimony of Christ's love and mercy. His deeds bring hope to many I'm sure like those on death row or to any would be deathbed converts.
 
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Steven Beck

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God knows the heart. That thief may have done things for God which only God knows...one good deed is as you said...He declared Jesus the Christ which is a confession before men and then too all who then read and will read his account have this testimony of Christ's love and mercy. His deeds bring hope to many I'm sure like those on death row or to any would be deathbed converts.

His deed brings hope to everyone since we don't know when we will die.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Methinks that's why you don't know how unpopular your (spiritual Truth) views are!
Just what spiritual truths are you talking about? Perhaps it is your views that are unpopular sense people tend to judge others for what they are guilty of. "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:2)
 
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Steven Beck

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Just what spiritual truths are you talking about? Perhaps it is your views that are unpopular sense people tend to judge others for hey arwhat they are guilty of. "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:2)
It is called "projection". For example a thief thinks everyone are thieves, liars think everyone tells lies.
Many so called Christians accuse other Christians of being afraid of their teaching when in fact afraid that the person that they are accusing is telling the truth.
 
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BCsenior

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Just what spiritual truths are you talking about?
Perhaps it is your views that are unpopular since people tend to judge others for what they are guilty of.
"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use,
it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:2)
Spiritual Truths such as: salvation is a process and can be lost (forfeited).
I'm not judging anyone, simply quoting NT verses, which are to be taken seriously.
Most of today's churches are FAST ASLEEP and need to WAKE UP!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Spiritual Truths such as: salvation is a process and can be lost (forfeited).
I'm not judging anyone, simply quoting NT verses, which are to be taken seriously.
Most of today's churches are FAST ASLEEP and need to WAKE UP!

I agree with you. Although we have our disagreements on other things. On this we agree. I agree that salvation is a process and that it is a cooperation between man and God. I believe this would be both in Justification and Sanctification. We have to always trust in Jesus as our Savior, and seek forgiveness with Him (if we stumble on rare occasion) (Justification), and we have to live holy and not justify sin, and do good works befitting of the Master's service (like preaching the gospel, helping the poor, and loving the brethren, etc.). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

May you be well BCsenior.
May God bless you this fine day.
 
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BCsenior

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I agree with you. Although we have our disagreements on other things. On this we agree. I agree that salvation is a process and that it is a cooperation between man and God. I believe this would be both in Justification and Sanctification. We have to always trust in Jesus as our Savior, and seek forgiveness with Him (if we stumble on rare occasion) (Justification), and we have to live holy and not justify sin, and do good works befitting of the Master's service (like preaching the gospel, helping the poor, and loving the brethren, etc.). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
May you be well BCsenior. May God bless you this fine day.
Many thanks, BH, for your kind words, and blessings likewise!
 
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joshua 1 9

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salvation is a process and can be lost
We need to die to self. We put off the old and put on the new. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" (2cor5:17)
 
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fhansen

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One of the things that possibly Catholics may just assume others would know is the particular way Catholics use the word "grace", which is more...extensive (maybe is the word) than many not having grown up Catholic would be accustomed to using the word. So that I'm aware you can write 'grace' in a sentence, and I know it's possible for us not growing up Catholic to not get exactly what you are saying. At this point, I'm having been exposed to the Catholic catechism section on Grace am unsure even how typical my own usage for the word is any longer, but as best I recall it meant (to me in the past) only just that God overlooked/forgot our sins for the sake of Christ, so that the word meant 'forbearance' if you like. See, for many, when you write 'grace' they would only take the meaning 'forbearance' or 'forgiveness' or 'mercy', alone, and not even slightly get that you might mean something else, something more, like God changing you to be able to do things you could not do otherwise. Your sentence: "But the primary measure, which is the work and operation of the Spirit in us, is love, which acts for the good of others by its nature and which therefore is the right motivating factor for any work or act of righteousness that it may compel. "
may not register fully, the meaning come across: that God is working through us, causing us to be able to do the "good works which God has prepared for us to do" (Eph 2:10) -- that these are 'works' -- fruits from the Vine (John chapter 15). In other words, you practically need to write several really clear sentences on just that.
Yes, you're right-and that issue certainly does come up now and then. In Catholicism, grace is more than forgiveness or unmerited favor only but it is the life of God in us, the work of the Holy Spirit as he urges and helps and challenges and heals and changes and transforms us. Grace is necessary for sanctification, for example. Virtues such as faith are gifts of grace. The justified state is a state of grace.
 
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Blade

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I like the words of David.. or God through David "My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from him. He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. ... Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him."

I can see how some might come to this conclusion. I always wondered... what would we tell people if all we had (some did) was just word of mouth by those that heard Christs words and the OT. Did it all change because of what GOD said through Paul? :) I would have back then offered something for my sins. This time.. I am doing nothing. This time GOD is making the offering for the worlds sin. So this co-op is not to keep anything but to grow?
 
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fhansen

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There is. You are just unwilling to see/read it for some reason. That's unfortunate.
As I said before, and if you even read the passages given to you, the thief changed his mind. How is that not a process?
Right, and there's more expected/demanded from those given more (Luke 12:48). The thief had whatever time and grace and knowledge he had-and did the best with that! And had he been given more-had he been allowed down from the cross, then he would've been expected to follow God's commands in whatever else was expected of him with whatever more time he had.
 
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Steven Beck

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Right, and there's more expected/demanded from those given more (Luke 12:48). The thief had whatever time and grace and knowledge he had-and did the best with that! And had he been given more-had he been allowed down from the cross, then he would've been expected to follow God's commands in whatever else was expected of him with whatever more time he had.

Everyone seems to have missed the point. This is the point, the thief was saved then lived for 3 or 4 hours. Another person is saved at age 16 and lives 70 years and according to BCSenior if this person backslides a bit at the end he is doomed. According to BCSenior we should convert somebody then kill them to make sure they get to heaven. Have I made the point simple enough?
 
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Steven Beck

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Believers are accountable to the Lord God who saved them!
Dozens of NT verses teach that their salvation is conditional.
After the Holy Spirit indwells them, they are sanctified (set apart)
for further sanctification unto holiness. During this process, believers
are required to co-operate with the Holy Spirit’s efforts to sanctify them,
and to overcome sin, Satan, persecution, etc. (see Revelation 3:21).

There is only space below for some of the topics and “proof text” verses …

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are obedient
This is about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands. Continuing obedience is
what “being faithful” means. True believers love Jesus, and want to follow and obey Him!

● “If you love Me, obey My commandments …
Those who accept My commandments and obey them are the ones who love Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will obey My word” (John 14:15-23)

Truly, does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus?

Believers are obedient IF they are NOT habitual sinners
● “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)
● “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past,
that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)


Believers are righteous IF they practice righteousnesss
● “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.
He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin (habitually) …
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does
NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT love his brother.” (1 John 3:7-10)

Believers who are “faithful” will be obedient to Jesus’ commandments, and will practice righteousness!
● “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
● “… who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him”
(Acts 10:35)

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are repenting
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as being opposite sides of the same coin.
… John used believe since this term included all of these ideas.” (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

When they were first saved, believers were ONLY forgiven of their PAST sins …
● “… forgetting that they have been cleansed from their old sins.” (2 Peter 1:9)
“former sins”
(NASB, ESV) --- “past sins” (NIV, HCSB) --- “old sins” (NKJV, NLT, RSV)
● “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

Confession needs to be followed by repentance!
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness,
from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them” (The Applied New Testament Commentary)


Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
● “God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor … God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives … anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
● “God has given us everything we need to live a godly life … Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen … It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it, and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life”
(2 Peter 1:3, 1:10, 2:21)
● “God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
… work at living a holy life, for those who are NOT holy will NOT see the Lord.
… Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking.” (Hebrews 12:10-25)


Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!
Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!

● “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
may have
[present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes
[present tense: continues to believe] in Him
should not perish but have
[present tense: continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:16)
● “… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you
continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)
● “It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

Now this is the real interesting part. BCsenior believes that we don't have free will to choose God so basically God picks and chooses who goes to heaven (and who goes to hell) then he writes this stuff that basically says that if we stuff up we lose our salvation.

But if God has chosen us how can He unchoose us? Like make up your mind mate this is just hypocrisy at its best.
 
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fhansen

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Everyone seems to have missed the point. This is the point, the thief was saved then lived for 3 or 4 hours. Another person is saved at age 16 and lives 70 years and according to BCSenior if this person backslides a bit at the end he is doomed. According to BCSenior we should convert somebody then kill them to make sure they get to heaven. Have I made the point simple enough?
The problem is that we have plenty of passages that exhort believers not to slip and fall, not to return to sin. What's the difference between a non-believer and a believer who's tasted of the heavenly gift and later spit it out, returning to a life of sin? Why be told to persevere if not for the possibility of failing in that endeavor? God judges by the heart, man by appearances. He knew the heart of the thief, as well as his actions.
 
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fhansen

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Now this is the real interesting part. BCsenior believes that we don't have free will to choose God so basically God picks and chooses who goes to heaven (and who goes to hell) then he writes this stuff that basically says that if we stuff up we lose our salvation.

But if God has chosen us how can He unchoose us? Like make up your mind mate this is just hypocrisy at its best.
I'm not sure of BC's full theology but if he understands correctly then he knows that man cannot possibly save himself and yet man can still refuse to be saved. Grace can be resisted/rejected.
 
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Steven Beck

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I'm not sure of BC's full theology but if he understands correctly then he knows that man cannot possibly save himself and yet man can still refuse to be saved. Grace can be resisted/rejected.

You can see my meaning here.

You can't have both. If we cannot choose God to be saved then God must choose us to be saved. If God chooses us to be saved then how can we mess up to be unsaved? That is an unresolved contradiction.
 
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