Try to find SDA view of Sabbath vs Sunday in the Early Church Fathers with links to quotes

Daniel Marsh · Nov 4, 2019

2 Thessalonians 2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

read to here

BobRyan · Nov 4, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
2 Thessalonians 2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

No doubt that all traditions are not in error.

And not doubt "says Christ" all traditions are not without error Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7
5 The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Dave-W · Nov 5, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
What is your ECF quotes that prove what you wrote? Friend

ECF quotes? Are you kidding? The LAST thing the ECFs wanted was obvious ties to Judaism.

But if you read Acts 20, it is obvious that what is described is a Havdalah service. And there are writings from the "Sect of the Nazarene" that indicate that very early on, Havdalah was an important gathering for the Jewish believers in Messiah, and many gentile believers joined them.

ViaCrucis · Nov 5, 2019

BobRyan said:
Did Paul reject scripture the moment he heard Agabus in Acts 21 predict his impridonment in Jerusalem.??

It is hard to follow the logic in your statement.

Well, it would seem that you are asserting that to be Sola Scriptura means to reject all things which aren't Scripture, such as the ancient fathers of the Church. That's your argument by the way.

So it should follow that if Sola Scriptura excludes teachings and traditions outside of Scripture (which, of course, it doesn't, but that is beside the point here) then one should, if that is their position, be consistent.

But apparently you are going to stand here and tell us that the fathers are to be rejected because they aren't Scripture, all the while claiming divine authority for your false prophet--something that none of us would even dare to claim for the fathers.

I don't expect you to recognize the blatant hypocrisy, and I expect you to hand wave this away.

-CryptoLutheran

Daniel Marsh · Nov 5, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Well, it would seem that you are asserting that to be Sola Scriptura means to reject all things which aren't Scripture, such as the ancient fathers of the Church. That's your argument by the way.

So it should follow that if Sola Scriptura excludes teachings and traditions outside of Scripture (which, of course, it doesn't, but that is beside the point here) then one should, if that is their position, be consistent.

But apparently you are going to stand here and tell us that the fathers are to be rejected because they aren't Scripture, all the while claiming divine authority for your false prophet--something that none of us would even dare to claim for the fathers.

I don't expect you to recognize the blatant hypocrisy, and I expect you to hand wave this away.

-CryptoLutheran

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Daniel Marsh · Nov 5, 2019

From Reformation scholar David Steinmetz of Duke Divinity school, as cited by ChristianHistoryInstitute.org in an interview:

“The Reformation is an argument not just about the Bible but about the early Christian fathers, whom the Protestants wanted to claim. This is one of those things that is so obvious nobody has paid much attention to it—then you look and you see it everywhere.

“The reformers use the fathers all over the place. We know Calvin read Augustine, and we discovered recently that Luther read Jerome—he had copies annotated in his own hand. The index of Calvin’s Institutes is filled with an enormous number of quotations from the fathers. And in the first preface to that work, addressed to Francis I, Calvin did his best to show his teachings were in complete harmony with the fathers.”

ViaCrucis · Nov 6, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
From Reformation scholar David Steinmetz of Duke Divinity school, as cited by ChristianHistoryInstitute.org in an interview:

“The Reformation is an argument not just about the Bible but about the early Christian fathers, whom the Protestants wanted to claim. This is one of those things that is so obvious nobody has paid much attention to it—then you look and you see it everywhere.

“The reformers use the fathers all over the place. We know Calvin read Augustine, and we discovered recently that Luther read Jerome—he had copies annotated in his own hand. The index of Calvin’s Institutes is filled with an enormous number of quotations from the fathers. And in the first preface to that work, addressed to Francis I, Calvin did his best to show his teachings were in complete harmony with the fathers.”

For us Lutherans, our Confessions are explicit that nothing which we confess and teach departs from the historic catholic faith.

The Reformation was never about departing from the old, starting new, or anything like that. It was always about the integrity of the Church's preaching of the Gospel. Hence why it is impossible to try and claim the Reformers for those who wish to depart from the historic catholic and apostolic faith to go and do their own thing.

-CryptoLutheran

Original Happy Camper · Nov 6, 2019

BobRyan · Nov 6, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Well, it would seem that you are asserting that to be Sola Scriptura means to reject all things which aren't Scripture,

Wouldn't it be better to make that claim based on my actually saying such a thing?

Isaiah 8:20 "to the law and to the testimony" (scripture) "if they speak not according to this WORD there is no light in them".. sola scriptura testing even in the OT did not mean that no more scripture could possibly be written.

ViaCrucis said:
such as the ancient fathers of the Church. That's your argument by the way.

Nope - my argument is that it is utter nonsense to go down the "extreme" path of "no Bible just ECFS"... my argument is that it makes no sense to claim that "after the age of NT writers no error could possibly exist among anyone who knew an apostle in their lifetime" - since Paul refutes that idea in Acts 20.

BobRyan · Nov 6, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
But apparently you are going to stand here and tell us that the fathers are to be rejected because they aren't Scripture,

Have I posted so little on this thread - that your only recourse is to keep "quoting you" when coming up with what is supposed to be one of my positions??

ViaCrucis said:
I don't expect you to recognize the blatant hypocrisy, and I expect you to hand wave this away.
-CryptoLutheran

My thinking exactly

Dale · Nov 7, 2019

Dave-W said:
You won't. The writings of the ECFs that were retained are mostly post-Bar Kochba, when Rome cracked down hard on anything that looked Jewish. So the church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. Writings that advocated for a continued Saturday Sabbath were not retained. Indeed, Eusubius, writing circa 300 ad, listed sabbath keepers like the Nazoreans and Ebionites as heretics.

The church did not "change" the day of worship. Christians were already worshiping on Sunday in the NT. The only exception was when they went to a synagogue and worshipped with Jews.

Try this verse.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.
Revelation 1:10 RSV

This is John, the author of Revelation, telling us that he was "in the Spirit," that is, worshiping on "the Lord's day." Not the traditional Jewish sabbath, but the Lord's day, the day that Jesus was resurrected.

In case you doubt my reading of this, take a look at John Gill's commentary.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day
Not on the Jewish sabbath, which was now abolished, nor was that ever called the Lord's day, and had John meant that, he would have said on the sabbath day; much less the Jewish passover, but the first day of the week is designed; so the Ethiopic version renders it "on the first day"; and is so called just as the ordinance of the supper is called the Lord's supper, being instituted by the Lord, and the Lord's table, ( 1 Corinthians 10:21 ) ( 11:20 ) , and that because it was the day in which our Lord rose from the dead, ( Mark 16:9 ) ; and in which he appeared at different times to his disciples, ( John 20:19 John 20:26 ) , and which the primitive churches set apart for his worship and service, and on which they met together to hear the word, and attend on ordinances, ( Acts 20:7 ) ( 1 Corinthians 16:1 ) ; and Justin Martyr F26 tells us, who lived within about fifty years after this time, that on the day called (th tou) (hliou hmera) , "Sunday", (by the Greeks,) the Christians met together in one place, and read the Scriptures, and prayed together, and administered the ordinance of the supper; and this, he adds, was the first day in which God created the World, and our Saviour Jesus Christ rose from the dead; yea, Barnabas F1, the companion of the Apostle Paul, calls this day the eighth day, in distinction from the seventh day sabbath of the Jews, and which he says is the beginning of another world; and therefore we keep the eighth day, adds he, joyfully, in which Jesus rose from the dead, and being manifested, ascended unto heaven: and this day was known by the ancients by the name of "the Lord's day"; as by Ignatius F2, Irenaeus F3, Tertullian F4, Origen F5, and others ...

Link
Revelation 1:10 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Exposition of the Bible

BobRyan · Nov 8, 2019

Dale said:
The church did not "change" the day of worship. Christians were already worshiping on Sunday in the NT. The only exception was when they went to a synagogue and worshipped with Jews.

Try this verse.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.
Revelation 1:10 RSV

This is John, the author of Revelation, telling us that he was "in the Spirit," that is, worshiping on "the Lord's day." Not the traditional Jewish sabbath, but the Lord's day, the day that Jesus was resurrected.

At that point.. wouldn't it be great if you were not merely "Quoting you" when you say "Not the traditional Jewish sabbath, but the Lord's day, the day that Jesus was resurrected" -- as if there was even one text in all of scripture saying "the Lord's day is week-day-1" or "the first day of the week is the Lord's day" ??

Maybe we were supposed to skim past that detail - but I for one find it interesting.

In all fairness this is a "Not the Bible - just ECFs thread" so I am sure we could get at least some headway down that road using the "not the bible" method being suggested for the thread.

I was expecting to see a big interest in one of these "not the Bible -- just ECF -- for doctrine" threads.

BobRyan · Nov 8, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
No it does not because proof from historical sources outside the Bible was asked for.

By contrast the Bible shows that the NT saints demanded sola scriptura "proof".

We are not sola-ecf Christians rather we are sola-scriptura Christians.

Enjoy your thread.

ViaCrucis said:
Is this a disavowing of Ellen White as a divinely inspired

Did Paul reject scripture the moment he heard Agabus in Acts 21 predict his imprisonment in Jerusalem.??

It is hard to follow the logic in your statement.

Meanwhile - ECF-and-No-Bible agenda on this thread is fine as an example of where this goes. Far be it from me to hinder that progress.

ViaCrucis said:
Well, it would seem that you are asserting that to be Sola Scriptura means to reject all things which aren't Scripture,

And yet having no such quote from me... you keep saying that??

ViaCrucis said:
such as the ancient fathers of the Church. That's your argument by the way.

My argument on this thread is that "not the Bible -- just ECFs for doctrine" is the kind of extreme not-the-Bible position one might expect of the ECF group when taken to an extreme.

Interesting that it finds so many supporters though.

ViaCrucis said:
But apparently you are going to stand here and tell us that the fathers are to be rejected because they aren't Scripture,

Here again -- another example of you quoting "you" and not "me" to try and come up with a position for me to adopt. Why keep doing that? Has that sort of method ever worked before with me??

So far I think the answer on that one is 'no'

Daniel Marsh · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
Wouldn't it be better to make that claim based on my actually saying such a thing?

Isaiah 8:20 "to the law and to the testimony" (scripture) "if they speak not according to this WORD there is no light in them".. sola scriptura testing even in the OT did not mean that no more scripture could possibly be written.

Nope - my argument is that it is utter nonsense to go down the "extreme" path of "no Bible just ECFS"... my argument is that it makes no sense to claim that "after the age of NT writers no error could possibly exist among anyone who knew an apostle in their lifetime" - since Paul refutes that idea in Acts 20.

Isaiah 8:16-22 Good News Translation (GNT)
Warning against Consulting the Dead
16 You, my disciples, are to guard and preserve the messages that God has given me. 17 The Lord has hidden himself from his people, but I trust him and place my hope in him.

18 Here I am with the children the Lord has given me. The Lord Almighty, whose throne is on Mount Zion, has sent us as living messages to the people of Israel.

19 But people will tell you to ask for messages from fortunetellers and mediums, who chirp and mutter. They will say, “After all, people should ask for messages from the spirits and consult the dead on behalf of the living.”

20 You are to answer them, “Listen to what the Lord is teaching you! Don't listen to mediums—what they tell you cannot keep trouble away.”

21 The people will wander through the land, discouraged and hungry. In their hunger and their anger they will curse their king and their God. They may look up to the sky 22 or stare at the ground, but they will see nothing but trouble and darkness, terrifying darkness into which they are being driven.

In context, Your proof text was not speaking of the written word. It was referring to what the prophet was saying at the time.

Daniel Marsh · Nov 8, 2019

The ECF used the Scriptures and were also taught by the Apostles. Using your logic you should dump Ellen White, and not listen to any Teachers of the Word.

Daniel Marsh · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
Wouldn't it be better to make that claim based on my actually saying such a thing?

Isaiah 8:20 "to the law and to the testimony" (scripture) "if they speak not according to this WORD there is no light in them".. sola scriptura testing even in the OT did not mean that no more scripture could possibly be written.

Nope - my argument is that it is utter nonsense to go down the "extreme" path of "no Bible just ECFS"... my argument is that it makes no sense to claim that "after the age of NT writers no error could possibly exist among anyone who knew an apostle in their lifetime" - since Paul refutes that idea in Acts 20.

Acts 20 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Paul Goes to Macedonia and Greece
20 When the trouble stopped, Paul invited the Lord’s followers to come visit him. After encouraging them, he told them goodbye and left for Macedonia. 2 On his way through Macedonia he had many words of encouragement for the followers in various places. Then he went to Greece 3 and stayed there three months.

Paul was ready to sail for Syria, but some Jews were planning something against him. So he decided to go back through Macedonia to Syria. 4 These men were traveling with him: Sopater, the son of Pyrrhus, from the city of Berea; Aristarchus and Secundus, from the city of Thessalonica; Gaius, from the city of Derbe; Timothy; and two men from Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus. 5 These men went first, ahead of Paul. They waited for us in the city of Troas. 6 We sailed from the city of Philippi after the Festival of Unleavened Bread. We met these men in Troas five days later and stayed there seven days.

Paul’s Last Visit to Troas
7 On Sunday[a] we all met together to eat the Lord’s Supper. Paul talked to the group. Because he was planning to leave the next day, he continued talking until midnight. 8 We were all together in a room upstairs, and there were many lights in the room. 9 There was a young man named Eutychus sitting in the window. Paul continued talking, and Eutychus became very, very sleepy. Finally, he went to sleep and fell out of the window. He fell to the ground from the third floor. When the people went down and lifted him up, he was dead.

10 Paul went down to where Eutychus was, knelt down beside him, and put his arms around him. He said to the other believers, “Don’t worry. He is alive now.” 11 Then Paul went upstairs again, broke off some pieces of bread and ate. He spoke to them a long time. It was early morning when he finished, and then he left. 12 The Lord’s followers took Eutychus home alive, and they were all greatly comforted.

The Trip From Troas to Miletus
13 We went on ahead of Paul and sailed for the city of Assos, planning to meet him there. This is what he told us to do because he wanted to go by land. 14 When he caught up with us at Assos, we took him on board, and we all sailed to Mitylene. 15 The next day, we sailed away from there and came to a place near the island of Chios. Then the next day, we sailed to the island of Samos. A day later, we came to the city of Miletus. 16 Paul had already decided not to stop at Ephesus. He did not want to stay too long in Asia. He was hurrying because he wanted to be in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost if possible.

Paul Speaks to the Elders From Ephesus
17 In Miletus Paul sent a message back to Ephesus, telling the elders of the church in Ephesus to come to him.

18 When they came, Paul said to them, “You know about my life from the first day I came to Asia. You know the way I lived all the time I was with you. 19 The Jews planned things against me, and this gave me much trouble. But you know that I always served the Lord, sometimes with tears. I never thought about myself first. 20 I always did what was best for you. I told you the Good News about Jesus in public before the people and also taught in your homes. 21 I told everyone—Jewish and non-Jewish people—to change and turn to God. I told them all to believe in our Lord Jesus.

22 “But now I must obey the Spirit and go to Jerusalem. I don’t know what will happen to me there. 23 I know only that in every city the Holy Spirit tells me that troubles and even jail wait for me. 24 I don’t care about my own life. The most important thing is that I finish my work. I want to finish the work that the Lord Jesus gave me to do—to tell people the Good News about God’s grace.

25 “And now listen to me. I know that none of you will ever see me again. All the time I was with you, I told you the Good News about God’s kingdom. 26 So today I can tell you one thing that I am sure of: God will not blame me if some of you are not saved. 27 I can say this because I know that I told you everything that God wants you to know. 28 Be careful for yourselves and for all the people God has given you. The Holy Spirit gave you the work of caring for[c] this flock.[d] You must be shepherds to the church of God,[e] the people he bought with his own blood.[f] 29 I know that after I leave, some men will come into your group. They will be like wild wolves and will try to destroy the flock. 30 Also, men from your own group will begin to teach things that are wrong. They will lead some of the Lord’s followers away from the truth to follow them. 31 So be careful! And always remember what I did during the three years I was with you. I never stopped reminding each one of you how you should live, counseling you day and night and crying over you.

32 “Now I am putting you in God’s care. I am depending on the message about his grace to make you strong. That message is able to give you the blessings that God gives to all his holy people. 33 When I was with you, I never wanted anyone’s money or fine clothes. 34 You know that I always worked to take care of my own needs and the needs of the people who were with me. 35 I always showed you that you should work just as I did and help people who are weak. I taught you to remember the words of the Lord Jesus: ‘You will have a greater blessing when you give than when you receive.’”

36 When Paul finished speaking, he knelt down, and they all prayed together. 37-38 They cried and cried. They were especially sad because Paul had said they would never see him again. They hugged him and kissed him. Then they went with him to the ship to say goodbye.

Daniel Marsh · Nov 8, 2019

please explain

Matthew 23:2-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Where are Jannes and Jambres found in the OT?

2 Timothy 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Oral Teachings of the Apostles on par with the written word.

2 Timothy 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

2 Timothy 2:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 Timothy 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Text that was not responded to yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle

Daniel Marsh · Nov 8, 2019

read to here

klutedavid · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
By contrast the Bible shows that the NT saints demanded sola scriptura "proof".

We are not sola-ecf Christians rather we are sola-scriptura Christians.

No Christian can accept the canon of the New Testament without first accepting the early Christian authors.

The early church authors of the first few centuries is where we get the New Testament canon from.

Bob, you need to study the history of the New Testament canon.

Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings are claimed to have been accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the third century.
(wikipedia)

I need to know how you derive your New Testament canon?

Dale · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
At that point.. wouldn't it be great if you were not merely "Quoting you" when you say "Not the traditional Jewish sabbath, but the Lord's day, the day that Jesus was resurrected" -- as if there was even one text in all of scripture saying "the Lord's day is week-day-1" or "the first day of the week is the Lord's day" ??

Maybe we were supposed to skim past that detail - but I for one find it interesting.

In all fairness this is a "Not the Bible - just ECFs thread" so I am sure we could get at least some headway down that road using the "not the bible" method being suggested for the thread.

I was expecting to see a big interest in one of these "not the Bible -- just ECF -- for doctrine" threads.

<< At that point.. wouldn't it be great if you were not merely "Quoting you" when you say "Not the traditional Jewish sabbath, but the Lord's day, the day that Jesus was resurrected" -- as if there was even one text in all of scripture saying "the Lord's day is week-day-1" or "the first day of the week is the Lord's day" ?? >>

Scholars sorted that out long ago.
Scripture isn't going to repeat what everyone knew at the time.

Try to find SDA view of Sabbath vs Sunday in the Early Church Fathers with links to quotes

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