Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

Mark Quayle said:

Silliness? Dead in sin is no joke. It is spiritually dead. No, I don't claim the spiritually regenerated never commit sin. But show me how the dead can do an alive thing. It is GOD who regenerates, quite apart from the regenerated persons' permission. Do they then turn to him? --of course they do!

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How can the dead TO sin commit sin then? It's a metaphor. Being spiritually dead doesn't mean you cant believe when the option is offered. God does not force ably regenerate anyone.

The Righterzpen said:

Again though; (like I just said) being "under conviction" is not Satan.

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I never said that being under conviction is Satan... But that Satan certainly attacks us when we are under conviction.

The Righterzpen said:

The human will is subordinate to the act of being regenerated. @renniks doesn't seem to understand that.

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Calvinists don't understand salvation. Y'all think you have to be regenerated in order to be regenerated. Only that's not the order according to scripture. The order is belief first than regeneration.

Butch5 said:

What I'm saying is that that passage in Ephesians 1 is talking about the Jews. But, yes the Jews were predestined, the Gentiles weren't. When Paul speaks of the Jews being adopted He's referring back to promises that God made to Abraham. God told Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation and that he would receive all of the land that he could see. He promised the land to Abraham and his seed. Right there Israel was predetermined or predestined. Paul said in Romans that the adoption pertains to the Jews.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:4-5 KJV)

The word pertains isn't in the Greek text. It literally says, 'who are Israelites; to whom the adoption.' God did adopt Israel.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

This is what Paul is talking about. The Gentiles weren't predestined, it was Israel. The Gentiles can become a part of the promises by becoming a part of Israel. Paul said in Romans 11 that the Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree. Here he turns his attention from the Jews to the Gentiles and begins his address to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;1
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Rom. 11:13-21 KJV)

So, here Paul is telling the Gentile believers in the church at Rome that they have been grafted in. They've been grafted into Israel. In Galatians Paul tells the Galatians that if they are in Christ they are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the Promise.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:29 KJV)

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It would seem then, that you believe only in Corporate Predestination? Not all Jews are Israel. Every individual ever is predestined one way or another. There is no such thing as chance, or any overall guiding force but God himself. Chance is only a placeholder for "I don't know." Therefore God predestines. Our choices, as it turns out, whether in cooperation or against God, are the result of his choosing, and his plan. There is no other sovereign will.

renniks said:

How can the dead TO sin commit sin then? It's a metaphor. Being spiritually dead doesn't mean you cant believe when the option is offered. God does not force ably regenerate anyone.

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If it's a metaphor, it is so for the comfort of your state of mind. You may be surprised to find what ALIVE really is. Science doesn't even know, except as activity performs on this physical plane. There is more to life than the physical.

But even as a metaphor, the math is exact. God isn't mincing words. The "dead to sin" means sin no longer controls one. Do you believe Scripture, or only part of it? --because it says we are dead to sin, yet it says if we claim we have no sin we have not the truth.

It is a lesson hard learned, but good to know, that human integrity of decision, strength of will, intellectual ability, emotional intensity, resolve, or anything else has no ability to compel God to do anything. We are not real without him --not just on the molecular level but on any level, including spiritual and moral. God owes us nothing.

As Christians we don't cooperate with God as though he does one part and we do another. He IS our strength.

BCsenior said:

The whole Scripture is about co-operation between God and man!
(except for Creation)
You either co-operate, or you don't.
Humans have free-will ... God ain't made no robots here, hear!

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What does this co-operation "look like"...?

Is it you making yourself "something", or is it God doing it?

And then, does He (God) not already know?

Not already know and knew long, long, long ago, whether you were going to choose to co-operate or not? And was it not He who made you to do that or not, long, long, long ago? Knows/knew all about it, way, way, way before you ever born, or creation was even created, etc? And therefore, is it not really pretty much all of Him and none of you?

Or not?

Or do you get some of the credit or glory?

He says he shares His glory with no one, and certainly no mere man...

God Bless!

Mark Quayle said:

But even as a metaphor, the math is exact. God isn't mincing words. The "dead to sin" means sin no longer controls one. Do you believe Scripture, or only part of it? --because it says we are dead to sin, yet it says if we claim we have no sin we have not the truth.

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You claim being dead in sin means incapable of response, but dead to sin means we can sin. Weird. You didnt really answer the question you just dance around it.

Mark Quayle said:

It would seem then, that you believe only in Corporate Predestination? Not all Jews are Israel. Every individual ever is predestined one way or another. There is no such thing as chance, or any overall guiding force but God himself. Chance is only a placeholder for "I don't know." Therefore God predestines. Our choices, as it turns out, whether in cooperation or against God, are the result of his choosing, and his plan. There is no other sovereign will.

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No, God predestined Israel to adoption. That's it. Not every Jew followed him, however, they were still Israel, His first Born.

renniks said:

Calvinists don't understand salvation. Y'all think you have to be regenerated in order to be regenerated. Only that's not the order according to scripture. The order is belief first than regeneration.

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Belief comes from regeneration.

BCsenior said:

The whole Scripture is about co-operation between God and man!
(except for Creation)
You either co-operate, or you don't.
Humans have free-will ... God ain't made no robots here, hear!

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You are mistaking my point. It is not as if we are capable of doing anything good, apart from God. Of course we cooperate, or oppose. My point is that without him, we can do nothing. When we do what we consider to be our part --that is, when we do what is truly right, not just compliance, but obedience --it is still him doing it in us.

Butch5 said:

No, God predestined Israel to adoption. That's it. Not every Jew followed him, however, they were still Israel, His first Born.

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You fail to demonstrate that members of the Children of Israel, i.e. Jewish only, are the only adopted. In a manner of speaking, they aren't even adopted, but first born.

renniks said:

You claim being dead in sin means incapable of response, but dead to sin means we can sin. Weird. You didnt really answer the question you just dance around it.

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I claim being dead in sin means incapable of valid response. There is nothing in us, apart from God, that adds up to anything good. We have no strength. It is the infinite power of God Almighty that seals and keeps the saved. Not their deeds.

Dead TO sin, however, means alive in Christ, and no longer under bondage to sin. Yet there is no contradiction --the same passage describing the one and the other, still says if we say we have no sin, we are liars.

Mark Quayle said:

You fail to demonstrate that members of the Children of Israel, i.e. Jewish only, are the only adopted. In a manner of speaking, they aren't even adopted, but first born.

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I didn't fail to show that. There's nothing in the Scriptures that says Gentiles were predestined to adoption. Paul said the adoption pertains to Israel. As I said, Gentiles can partake of that by being grafted in. If you're claiming more than Israel was predestined to adoption, the onus is on you to prove that.

The Righterzpen said:

Belief comes from regeneration.

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Not. Acts 16:31
Belief first then salvation.

Mark Quayle said:

claim being dead in sin means incapable of valid response. There is nothing in us, apart from God, that adds up to anything good. We have no strength. It is the infinite power of God Almighty that seals and keeps the saved. Not their deeds.

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Again, not an answer. We aren't talking about what keeps us saved, we are talking about the initial conditions for salvation. Being dead in sin, yes, but then being convicted by the spirit of the need for salvation, and either responding by accepting or rejecting. The spirit is not irresistible as Calvinists claim.

renniks said:

Not. Acts 16:31
Belief first then salvation.

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To be reconciled with:

First off; what does it mean to have faith or believe?

Answer: Believing and having faith basically means to trust God.

This does involve certain degrees of intellectual understanding. (Intellectual understanding is the agent that drives profession. In people who have not the capacity to speak; we ultimately have no idea what that understanding consists of, for their lack of ability to communicate it.)

So obviously, the extent of that intellectual understanding varies on a lot of factors. What revelation has been given to a person and what access to that revelation do they have? Everyone has the witness of creation. Not everyone has the witness of written Scripture. Some people only have portions of written Scripture. Some of us have vast resources to study written Scripture; (like multitudes of online concordances and Greek and Hebrew texts). Some only have access to a single translation of Scripture.

A person’s ability to study depends on other factors. People in the workforce have less time to study than people who aren’t. (“Workforce” is not only those in the paid workforce, but also parents home caring for children, as well as students who have to factor in study time of other requirements for their schooling. Then of course we all have to engage in the labor of food prep and cleaning dishes, clothing, houses, yards etc. Volunteers are also “in the workforce”.) Retired and disabled people potentially have more time to study than others.

A person’s ability to study though, also depends on things such as their education and aptitudes. Education is driven by access to material to study. Aptitudes factor in interests and intelligence. “Intelligence” is factored by lots of variables. Someone who’s ill and in a lot of pain is going to have a harder time studying than someone who isn’t. Medical and developmental issues that affect memory and cognitive reasoning ability bear real impact on individuals’ ability to intellectually grasp something. I’ll never be a physicist because I just don’t “get” that level of math; (nor do I have an interest in “getting it”). Could I “get it” if I tried? I don’t even know?

Which; this brings us to the other aspect of faith / belief. The ability to trust. This is the genuine demonstration of faith and is supernaturally imparted. I’ve known several developmentally disabled people who have not the intellectual capacity to grasp complex Scriptural doctrines; but they trust God. They firmly believe Christ redeemed them; even if they don’t understand it. I’ve also met people who don’t know a lot of Bible, but still trust Christ. (I’ve seen this a lot with immigrants who came from cultures with very little access to Scripture.)

On the flip side of this; I’ve also seen people with very high IQ’s who can accurately articulate the gospel, yet don’t trust God. So thus obviously we are not saved by having our doctrine right either! I’ve seen people who once claimed to be Christians convert to religions totally outside of belief in imparted grace. I’ve seen people who once seemed quite doctrinally sound “fall off the wagon” into some blatantly unorthodox beliefs about Christ.

The longer I’ve been a Christian; the more and more I’ve come to recognize that it is nothing but the supernatural sovereign will of God, Who keeps one “in the faith”.

The key is trust. The outcropping of trust is obedience. There are entities who acknowledge an understanding that God will take action. They “know” He is consistent. (Satan for example.) Human beings too are capable of possessing that type of knowledge. Yet that knowledge does not produce redemptive faith, for the Scriptures declare “Thou believe that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:9)

Note the devils tremble! They understand the consequence of what is “coming down the pike” for their disobedience; whereas humans make up all kinds of excuses and justifications for their lack of obedience. And this is why “Faith without works is dead”. You tell me you have faith? I prove what redemptive faith is by the “works” (both internal fruit of the Spirit, as well as external labor of declaring the truth) evident in my life.

BELIEF = (Same root word as faith):

1 Peter 1:21
Who by Him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

The origin of belief stated here is from Christ. The “object” is to “believe in God”. As a result of what Christ did; God “raised him from the dead and gave him glory”. The end result of Christ’s resurrection and being given glory (which part of “being glorified” is to have authority) is that believers have faith and hope in God.

FAITH originates with God.

1 Samuel 26:23
The Lord render to every man his righteousness and his faithfulness; for the Lord delivered thee into my hand to day, but I would not stretch forth mine hand against the Lord's anointed.

Although this is in context of a battle; yet Samuel is still acknowledging the action of God is the origin of the end result; to which he names God’s “faithfulness”. “Fidelity” is to show loyalty to something; to see it through to the end. To have faith; (to believe God) is also to have loyalty that sees action through to the end. James says “Faith without works is dead”; which means the evidence of faith is showed forth by action. The proof to the individual that God has indeed instilled genuine saving faith is that they persevere to the end. This is the “P” in “TULIP”. Perseverance of the saints.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Two things about this passage:

1. Paul states grace is given to him; according as God has dealt “the measure of faith”. Both statements demonstrating the origin of given substance (grace and faith) is God.

2. Because God is the one who deals “the measure of faith”; should no-one think more highly of himself than he ought. (I.E. believing the “origin of faith came from self”!) One who truly understands the origin of faith, thinks soberly because they know God is the one who’s dealt this “measure of faith”.

Now what does “dealt every man” the measure of faith mean? We know it does not mean God has dealt saving faith to all of humanity. That is obvious by the fact that not all humanity believes. So, every man who possesses this “measure of faith” is confined only to those how actually demonstrate this measure of faith. (Refer back to what “belief / faith” actually is; to trust God.)

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

These two passages note that “faith” is “of Christ”. Keep that in mind as it relates to “works”; because in a later passage we will see that “to have faith” is actually “a work”.

Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Note the nuance of the phrase used in these two verses “the hearing of faith”. “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.” (Romans 10:7) These two verses are cluing us into the fact that faith is not “mustered up” from within the individual. No, faith comes by “hearing”. And how does “hearing” come? Hearing comes by the “Word of God”.

Now ultimately what (or Who) is the “Word of God”? Christ is the “Word of God”. And this is why these passages here in Galatians speak of the “faith of Christ” being the origin of one’s belief.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

And here is the “reverse reason” of this. The “faith of Christ” is given to “them that believe” because “all are concluded under sin”. Remember the definition of “faith / belief” is to trust God. God told Adam and Eve not to eat this particular fruit. Yet they did it anyways. This demonstrated their lack of faith. (I.E. they didn’t trust God.)

Now this creates a very interesting nuance in understanding the fall. Adam and Eve had not to that point committed any sin, nor were they subject to corruption. So their wills were still free to obey. Yet note the end result; they didn’t obey! Now why is that? This is because redemptive faith (the supernatural ability to trust God) was not inherent in their originally created state. If it had been, there never would have been a fall.

Redemptive faith is granted to someone predicated upon their sin being atoned for. So thus the necessity of “sin entering in” in order for the atonement to be enacted. This (redemptive faith) is compared in juxtaposed to being created in the image of God; which makes men accountable for their sin because of our inherent understanding of moral right and wrong. Those who endure God’s wrath because of their sin, are judged based on that inherent understanding of right and wrong. This is why these are the “wages of sin” that have been earned; yet grace is a “free gift” (to the sinner) of God.

It won’t no “free gift” to Christ though!

Ephesians 3:12
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Note this verse; “righteousness”… “through the faith of Christ”… which is “of God by faith”. Anyone who has redemptive faith only possesses it because of the faithfulness of Christ. This is why this faith is “of God”. And if there is any question as to the correct interpretation of this verse; look at the next one!

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The “faith of the operation of God”. Because of the redemptive plan, again is the only reason anyone trusts God. (I.E. has redemptive faith.)

Jude 3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Note “faith” isn’t mustered up by the saints; it’s delivered to us!

Faith is a work:

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

II Thessalonians 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Note what God is “fulfilling”! The “good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power”!

This is why Scripture also states “Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 1:6)

This is the hope of the saints; that God will faithfully complete what He has started in our lives; because we know on account of our weakness in the flesh that we can’t. That is trust in God who’s enacted (and sustains) redemptive faith.

Butch5 said:

I didn't fail to show that. There's nothing in the Scriptures that says Gentiles were predestined to adoption. Paul said the adoption pertains to Israel. As I said, Gentiles can partake of that by being grafted in. If you're claiming more than Israel was predestined to adoption, the onus is on you to prove that.

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OK

Eph 1: "3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—" --Or are you going to say that Paul is referring to the Jews alone there also? If so, look what things he says about "us" before saying, "you also", not as a Jew vs Gentile thing.

Romans 8: "14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."

I would go to Galatians 4 but you get the point. There is NO DIFFERENCE.

renniks said:

Again, not an answer. We aren't talking about what keeps us saved, we are talking about the initial conditions for salvation. Being dead in sin, yes, but then being convicted by the spirit of the need for salvation, and either responding by accepting or rejecting. The spirit is not irresistible as Calvinists claim.

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Then back to the old easy one with this: "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Yet according to Scripture, Faith is the gift of God. We are [re]born not of the will of man. So how can a person have the faith to trust God if God has not yet given him faith?