Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

Is predestination done through God's foreknowledge?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 47.4%
  • No

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 26.3%

  • Total voters
    19

bling

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Romans 9 basically answers all your questions and squashes your opinion that “ God loves everyone and before time began He realized only those who would accept His love would be happy in heaven...” Cannot see how you get that from Ephesians 1.
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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MDC

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Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
Please read John Gills exposition on Romans 9
 
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zoidar

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Good Day, Zoidar

Let's look at a classic passage about regeneration and the new heart. Lets see what God does and what we do the cause and the direct effect of the cause.

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

What God does... gives a new heart, and a new spirit, remove the heart of stone (you have a new one circumcised ) and put His Spirit in you ( that is new to you).

The purpose why God did what he did...

You now walk in his ways, and obey his rules. you do it why (effects)?

What is the cause?

God is the cause, what we do, know and experience is the effects of what God has done for His purpose.

God is the cause we reap the blessed effects at His hand and adore Him for them.

In Him,

Bill

How do you think God gave them a new heart? He led the people to repentance, then he gave them a new heart. Did the people play any part in the repentance, it doesn't say. There are quite few OT passages that show that repentance comes first. The city of Nineveh, Jonah preached, they repented and God saved the city. It was not God saved the city then they repented.

God draws, we repent, God gives us a new heart, then we can follow His statutes, only then can we put death to the flesh and follow the Spirit.
 
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bling

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Please read John Gills exposition on Romans 9
Who is John Gills? I did look him up and he is dead, so how can I question a dead person?
That is a huge problem I have with any commentary, I question some of their conclusions, they do not address other alternative interpretations, they only give support for their conclusion and do not address the contradictions and how they get around some of the problems.
If you want to explain your understanding we can discuss it. I have taught Romans 9 and all of Romans many times to adults.
 
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BBAS 64

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How do you think God gave them a new heart? He led the people to repentance, then he gave them a new heart. Did the people play any part in the repentance, it doesn't say. There are quite few OT passages that show that repentance comes first. The city of Nineveh, Jonah preached, they repented and God saved the city. It was not God saved the city then they repented.

God draws, we repent, God gives us a new heart, then we can follow His statutes, only then can we put death to the flesh and follow the Spirit.

Good Day, Zoidar

If "repentance" is a part of God's rules then obeying such rules is dependent on God giving of the new heart and place a new Spirit in us. Yes people really do receive a new heart and do repent because of the work that God has done that is His purpose in doing so.

God is the cause ... the effects ( His purposes) enjoyed by us like our adoption, our repentance, our Faith are truly ours thanks to Him and Him alone.


Do you believe some one with a heart of stone has the ability to repent?


The repentance of Nivea was the direct result of Jonah's Preaching. It was Gods plan all along to save those of Nivea and Jonah know it.

In Him,

Bill
 
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zoidar

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Do you believe some one with a heart of stone has the ability to repent?

Yes, that is how to get a heart of flesh.

Rom 2
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, that is how to get a heart of flesh.

Rom 2
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
That verse shows it is God Who circumcised the heart.
 
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zoidar

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A heart of stone repents?

Yes, that is how to get a heart of flesh. When you repent the Holy Spirit comes in and circumcises the heart, you get a heart of flesh.
 
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BBAS 64

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Yes, that is how to get a heart of flesh. When you repent the Holy Spirit comes in and circumcises the heart, you get a heart of flesh.

Good day, Zoidar

Not that I believe that is taught any where in the Scripture but lets take it is conclusion
My view God removes the heart of Stone that action of God has determined effects which God purposed.

Seeen here : Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

What is the instrumental and material cause of that repentance that the sprint of God reacts to?

Lets take 2 ways of looking at this.

The instrumental and material cause if God grants Repentance:
The instrumental and material cause if God does not grant Repentance:

In Him,

Bill
 
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zoidar

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Good day, Zoidar

Not that I believe that is taught any where in the Scripture but lets take it is conclusion
My view God removes the heart of Stone that action of God has determined effects which God purposed.

Seeen here : Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

What is the instrumental and material cause of that repentance that the sprint of God reacts to?

Lets take 2 ways of looking at this.

The instrumental and material cause if God grants Repentance:
The instrumental and material cause if God does not grant Repentance:

In Him,

Bill

Hi Bill,

I think this discussion has come to an end. Thanks for the conversation! May the Lord bless you and keep you! Amen!

Christ love,
P
 
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bling

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Good day, Zoidar

Not that I believe that is taught any where in the Scripture but lets take it is conclusion
My view God removes the heart of Stone that action of God has determined effects which God purposed.

Seeen here : Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

What is the instrumental and material cause of that repentance that the sprint of God reacts to?

Lets take 2 ways of looking at this.

The instrumental and material cause if God grants Repentance:
The instrumental and material cause if God does not grant Repentance:

In Him,

Bill
Look at all of Exe. 36 since there are tons of promises God is making to the scattered Israelites, wealth, growth, worship and so on, but this did not happen!
God said: He was going to do all this for Israel, so is it God's fault it did not happen?
I would say it is Israel's fault it did not happen.
PS you have to keep in mind the truism presented in Jer. 18 which these promises would definitely apply to.
 
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LoveofTruth

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What leads us to repentance?
godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation.

that godly sorrow is brought about when a man has God’d Light shine upon him in reproof and exposing his sin. Then when he is broken or has a broken spirit and a humble and contrite heart God will receive him as scripture teaches.
And repentance comes before faith.

Psalm 51:17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

We must repent or change our mind about the way we are going. But the exposing of our sin is first initiated by God’s true Light. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light.
Some might ask, well why do some who have the light reprove then come to God in humility and faith and others do not? Jesus told us “they would not” and they hate the light because their deeds are evil. They would rather continue in sin than repent and be humbled before God seeking forgiveness. Pride, hatred of the light, the evil they do and because they would not show that they are responsible and not they did not have a choice, as scripture teaches.

just some verses to consider,

John 1:9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Ephesians 5:13. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.”

John 3:19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Isaiah 66:3. ...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

2 Corinthians 4:3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them....6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Good Day, LoveofTruth

Seeing that both Repentance and Faith are the gifts of God to his adopted children, Then yes he foreknow (noun) that they would believe, as his predestination (verb) is the cause of both faith and repentance... "in Christ" is a indicate inclusion as such is based upon meeting a condition which are results of gifts and not the cause of inclusion.

In Him,

Bill
God forknew, he didn’t force them to believe or reject him. Those He fore knew, who would repent and believe he made the plan to have their final destination to be confirmed to the image of His Son,

Jesus said to some “where is your faith”


Men must make choices and they have freewill as scripture shows. Yes, Jesus is the substance of our faith and our faith is in Him and without him we can do nothing but we must choose and revive him and believe.

Isaiah 66:3. ...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yes it was Gods doing.. that denial was ordained by God ...
No, God can not deny himself as scripture teaches. At least that’s the God of the bible that I worship.

2 Timothy 2:13. If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”

also God does no iniquity and let no man say when he is tempted that he is tempted of God, for God cannot be tempted, not tempteth he any man

James 1:13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Good day, Love of Truth

Really I think not..

Those God foreknew, Those here is a plural pronoun to which noun/pronoun does it refer?

In Him,

Bill
Those he knew beforehand he also predetermined the plan for them which is to be confirmed to the image of His Son. This is the predestination or end destination for believers. Those who are believers and overcome till the end will be part of this. But those whose hearts harden and have an evil heart of unbelief can fall away and depart from the living God and have their names blotted out.
 
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redleghunter

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God forknew, he didn’t force them to believe or reject him. Those He fore knew, who would repent and believe he made the plan to have their final destination to be confirmed to the image of His Son,

Jesus said to some “where is your faith”


Men must make choices and they have freewill as scripture shows. Yes, Jesus is the substance of our faith and our faith is in Him and without him we can do nothing but we must choose and revive him and believe.

Isaiah 66:3. ...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”
Where in the Bible is it stated God’s Foreknowledge is equated to “our” faith?
 
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klutedavid

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Those he knew beforehand he also predetermined the plan for them which is to be confirmed to the image of His Son. This is the predestination or end destination for believers. Those who are believers and overcome till the end will be part of this. But those whose hearts harden and have an evil heart of unbelief can fall away and depart from the living God and have their names blotted out.
When Paul uses the word, 'predestined', such as in the letter to the Ephesians.

Is Paul talking about being predestined to salvation? Or is Paul saying that we are predestined to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will...

The process, the reality of God's adoption in and through Jesus Christ was predestined from eternity. Rather than the concept of the interpretation that this predestination event is solely of any individual to salvation.

Our adoption as sons through Jesus Christ was the plan that was predestined.
 
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redleghunter

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When Paul uses the word, 'predestined', such as in the letter to the Ephesians.

Is Paul talking about being predestined to salvation? Or is Paul saying that we are predestined to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will...

The process, the reality of God's adoption in and through Jesus Christ was predestined from eternity. Rather than the concept of the interpretation that this predestination event is solely of any individual to salvation.

Our adoption as sons through Jesus Christ was the plan that was predestined.
That would mean individuals are adopted right?
 
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