What Christians have authority over Jews and the Jewish Bible - Jewish texts?

OffGrid · Nov 8, 2019

SkyWriting said:
According to scripture, none of it is required reading.

If your dad said its not required of you to go to school, do you shove history and math and reading and writing away from you?
Sure we are saved by faith and not by works, yet faith without works is dead, and vice versa.
A wiseman once said 'my people die for a lack of understanding.' And another once said something like those who do not learn from the past are destined to repeat the same pit falls and suffer the same fate.
Thus while it is not mandatory God's Word is more important than your job.. Atleast that's my perspective and belief.

Robin Mauro · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

When canon was being decided, they almost decided to leave the books of Ruth, James, and Revelation out. And did you know Jesus quoted the apocrypha?
The apocrypha is beautiful...the Book of Wisdom, Eccesiasticus, Tobias, etc. Have you read it? I believe it was also inspired by the Holy Spirit.

usexpat97 · Nov 8, 2019

This thread and the OP, I am not entirely clear about. However:

Jesus has authority over Satan, and Christians have been given authority over the powers of darkness. We must take it and use it for good--for the Great Commission, and for God's ends. Inasmuch as we are within God's will, that is our realm of authority.

A lot of this depends upon what we are calling "Jewish texts". God's Word is not a "Jewish text". As if Jews somehow owned God. They don't. If anything, it's the other way around. Other texts, like Halacha, Gemara, and Kaballah, we could reasonably call Jewish texts. They are not God's Word. Jews can own it if they want, but they carry no more meaning than Louisa Mae Alcott owning "Little Women". But if we are talking about NON-fiction, God sets forth the laws of morality and the universe--not any man.

solid_core · Nov 8, 2019

These books are NOT quoted in the New Testament:
Ruth, Ezra, Ester, Lamentations, Obadiah, Zephaniah

These books ARE quoted in the New Testament:
Henoch
Assumption of Moses
The Kretika (Epimenides)
Phainomena (Aratos)

Bonus:
Allusions to stoicism in the epistles of Paul
Use of philosophical term "Logos" by the apostle John

Its obvious that in the time of writing of the New Testament there was no strict rule of which books are this or that. They used what they seemed to be useful for the case of Christ.

dqhall · Nov 8, 2019

Dave-W said:
Actually that is 22 books, the same number as the Hebrew alphabet.

A Torah group thought there are 24 Hebrew books:
The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

OffGrid · Nov 8, 2019

I've noticed in a Jewish '5 books of Moses' aka the law, there are missing scriptures throughout the book. It even goes as far to give 13 chapters of Isaiah but then leaves out pretty much the rest. Do the Jews not believe in the Christian Old Testament? Why do they neglect the rest of the Old Testament?

Robin Mauro · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 8, 2019

Dave-W said:
Correct - the TRUE BIBLICAL organization: Torah, then Prophets, and then the Writings.

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

If our Lord used that order, it is good enough for me.

TaNaKh

BobRyan · Nov 8, 2019

DamianWarS said:
and even odder part is some NT authors quote from these rejected scriptures

They also quote from pagan poets in the NT -- does not make those poets "scripture"
Titus 1: 12 "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

And they quote statements on pagan altars
Acts 17
23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

Does not mean that is to be included in the Hebrew Bible.

Robin Mauro said:
Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament

True. A number of texts quoted in the NT - that are not by that quote alone - turning the source text from which it is quoted - into scripture.

solid_core said:
These books are NOT quoted in the New Testament:
Ruth, Ezra, Ester, Lamentations, Obadiah, Zephaniah

These books ARE quoted in the New Testament:
Henoch
Assumption of Moses
The Kretika (Epimenides)
Phainomena (Aratos)

Bonus:
Allusions to stoicism in the epistles of Paul
Use of philosophical term "Logos" by the apostle John

Its obvious that in the time of writing of the New Testament there was no strict rule of which books are this or that. They used what they seemed to be useful for the case of Christ.

Good point. Just because some text is or is-not also quoted in the NT does not determine if that "other" text is in fact scripture.

BobRyan · Nov 8, 2019

OffGrid said:
I've noticed in a Jewish '5 books of Moses' aka the law, there are missing scriptures throughout the book. It even goes as far to give 13 chapters of Isaiah but then leaves out pretty much the rest. Do the Jews not believe in the Christian Old Testament? Why do they neglect the rest of the Old Testament?

The "five books of Moses" includes "13 chapters of Isaiah"? where?

BobRyan · Nov 8, 2019

Robin Mauro said:
When canon was being decided, they almost decided to leave the books of Ruth, James, and Revelation out.

A lot of people all through history "almost made a mistake" of one sort or another. Thank God He guided the OT and NT writers.

Thankfully as Josephus points out in the first century A.D. -- the "almost a mistake" almost-made many centuries later was in fact already "settled" for the Jews 400 years B.C.

joshua 1 9 · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

In Bible college they teach us that the meaning of a word is determined by the context. In Kabbalah the Hasidic Rabbi teach that the letters themselves have a symbolic meaning and the word is a combination of these symbols. For example, the first letter A represents the head of an Ox. Over time the Letter got turned upside down. The horns should be sticking up in the air. Texas people think that their long horn cattle are first and foremost. This is what the letter A represents: The head, the Leader, the strongest and most powerful. People that belong to Satan have tiny little horns. People that belong to God are strong and powerful with long horns. God is infinite and we could go on forever developing this symbol and what this symbol represents and how that is a part of the words where we find the letter A. Jesus says He is the alpha and the Omega. The first and the last. This is the first and the last letters of the Greek Alphabet. Also this is the word of God and the law of God is also made using letters and the symbols contained in the letters.

We do not need more words. WE do not need more books. We need a better understanding of the symbols that make up the words we have and are needing to understand. I have always had an expository approach to understanding the Bible. Figure out what the words mean.

joshua 1 9 · Nov 8, 2019

OffGrid said:
Do the Jews not believe in the Christian Old Testament?

They believe in the Torah, the first five books of Moses. Only Jesus can add to what God revealed to Moses. People like to add to the words of God: "They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (Matthew 23:4) The Rabbi's have 613 commandents. Jesus gives us one, or at the most two commandments. To Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul & strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Perhaps this is three: Love God, Love our neighbor and Love ourself. Sometimes the most difficult part is to love ourself. This requires us to die to self so that we can be born again and a new Creation in Christ.

GingerBeer · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

Jewish views about the Tanakh are relevant to Jews. That protestants follow Jewish views about the old testament is odd since it is likely that Jews regard Protestant bibles as fundamentally wrong.

Catholic and Orthodox Christians see the whole bible as a Christian matter decided by Christians. What Jews do with the Tanakh is up to them and not in the least relevant to what Christians count as canonical scripture.

BryanJohnMaloney · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

Study more history. You will understand. When was the LXX assembled? When was the Masoretic Text assembled?

The Masoretic (what you call "Hebrew Bible") rejected those older Jewish manuscripts that said "And behold! A virgin shall conceive and bear a son" in Isaiah. The modern accepted Jewish text, among Jews, says "a young woman". It does not say "virgin". Christian Bibles still say "Virgin", but it's not what the Jewish Bible says in the present day.

So, who is wrong? Are the Protestants wrong in their use of "virgin" or are the Jews wrong in their explicit rejection of "virgin"? The LXX, which contains those books you don't like, uses "virgin".

BryanJohnMaloney · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
As Josephus pointed out in the first century A.D. - the Hebrew canon is fixed 400 years before the time of Christ as one canonized set - kept in the temple and "unchanged" long before the Septuagint and remained unchanged long after it.

Jerome admitted to this same problem when translating the Vulgate.

And the Jews confirm this fact about their own Jewish text to this very day.

How is this even remotely confusing?

None of them recognized as having authority as Josephus points out - only the ones kept as the canon in the actual temple were agreed to have had authority and that remained unchanged for 400 years to that point in time according to their own historian.

If someone thinks the Jewish bible has the apocrypha they need to make that case to the Jews.

What Josephus used is not what modern Jews use. The modern Torah is based on the Masoretic Text, which was compiled between the 7th and 10th centuries AD.

BobRyan · Nov 8, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
What Josephus used is not what modern Jews use.

We have similar issues with Sinaticus vs Masoretic etc. Same books of the Bible though.

The Hebrew Bible in the temple at the time of Josephus predates all of those translation issues.

BobRyan · Nov 8, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Jewish views about the Tanakh are relevant to Jews.

Not too surprising that Jews do not come to the Christian NT and try to dictate to Christian - just which Christian authors should be included in the NT.

Is kinda surprising when a few Christians here and there try to tell Jews what they should have in the OT.

GingerBeer said:
Catholic and Orthodox Christians see the whole bible as a Christian matter decided by Christians. .

It may be true that there are some Christians who think they are in charge of what Moses wrote and should have written or if his writings are scripture.

For the rest of us -- we have Luke 24 statement from Christ stated long before there was even one NT Christian where Luke contends that Christ was teaching "from all the scriptures" and insisting that his followers knew and accepted these texts as the word of God - just as Josephus claims as well.

This is the "easy part"

dqhall · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

The Catholics added seven Old Testament books including two books of Maccabees.

dqhall · Nov 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
Not too surprising that Jews do not come to the Christian NT and try to dictate to Christian - just which Christian authors should be included in the NT.

Is kinda surprising when a few Christians here and there try to tell Jews what they should have in the OT.

It may be true that there are some Christians who think they are in charge of what Moses wrote and should have written or if his writings are scripture.

For the rest of us -- we have Luke 24 statement from Christ stated long before there was even one NT Christian where Luke contends that Christ was teaching "from all the scriptures" and insisting that his followers knew and accepted these texts as the word of God - just as Josephus claims as well.

This is the "easy part"

The Jews have volumes of rabbinical commentary about the law in the Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) and Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem Talmud). Rabbi Hillel (teacher of the law) was a prolific Talmudic commentator born c. 50 BC. Some of the context of legal opinions from the time of Christ can be found in the Talmud.

What Christians have authority over Jews and the Jewish Bible - Jewish texts?

Active Member

Well-Known Member

kewlness

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Well-Known Member

Cool and refreshing with a kick!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads