Self-exploiting "Spirituality"

Not David · Oct 11, 2019

Silmarien said:
Not in Buenos Aires, it doesn't seem to be.

Interestingly, an Argentinian once told me that there was a point at which the country decided to broadcast the whole league on public television, which struck me as a strange decision when there were so many other problems to spend public money on, but on the other hand, not so much a strange decision, for the same reason. (Though they seem to have stopped doing that now.)

I'm really intrigued by Latin American football in general, though, since sometimes it seems to serve less as a tool of the powers that be, and more a fullblown battlefield. Some of the football related stories out of the Pinochet dictatorship, for example, are very strange: Playing under Pinochet: how Chile’s stars of the 1970s feared for their lives

Football (soccer) is really popular in Latin America. When I was a kid, I did not play a lot with the rest of the kids since I was terrible at soccer and unless the variety of sports you have in the US, I could not do anything else.

FireDragon76 · Oct 12, 2019

Jane_the_Bane said:
Yoga, "mindfulness" exercises, meditation:
quite a few spiritual practices have become increasingly popular in recent years, many of them divorced from the religious world views that gave birth to them.
But what troubles me here is that they are used as a kind of symptom suppressant for systemic problems plagueing our society: like swallowing pills that will dull your pain and lower your fever to keep you functional, while not actually curing the ailment that caused these health concerns to begin with.

People use spiritual practices in order to avoid burnout or other job-induced mental (or physiological) issues: instead of pausing and saying "hey, we should not let ourselves be exploited in such a fashion", they are just looking for ways on how to wring even more efficiency out of their already overburdened psyche.

It's a kind of pop-spirituality, a calorie-free energy drink with artificial flavors and sweetener.

In my experience, this is a misguided fear born out of a misunderstanding and lack of familiarity with the actual practice of mindfulness.

Most people that seriously engage with mindfulness end up in a place of divergent thinking and greater creativity. That doesn't entail unyielding obedience to social and political conservativism. But neither does it necessitate revolutionary politics.

TheOldWays · Oct 13, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Most people that seriously engage with mindfulness end up in a place of divergent thinking and greater creativity. That doesn't entail unyielding obedience to social and political conservativism. But neither does it necessitate revolutionary politics.

true. a person who engages in mindfulness quite possibly sees the dangers of the political spectrum and won't wander too far left or right.

FireDragon76 · Oct 13, 2019

TheOldWays said:
true. a person who engages in mindfulness quite possibly sees the dangers of the political spectrum and won't wander too far left or right.

FWIW, I think most people in the US that are interested in mindfulness tend to be left of center. There are, for instance, plenty of ex-hippies among some of the older Zen teachers in the US. But I think a major reason for that is because in the US the Right is associated with highly dogmatic religious outlooks and ideologies.

Rajni · Oct 13, 2019

TheOldWays said:
true. a person who engages in mindfulness quite possibly sees the dangers of the political spectrum and won't wander too far left or right.

I've been finding this to be the case with me.

To the extent that I even bother with politics at all
(which is practically never), I can't lean too far left or
too far right.

-

Carbon · Oct 19, 2019

Silmarien said:
In any case, sports are not always useful to the state in any meaningful way. You can find clubs like Barcelona

Football Club of Barcelona may be the most politically useful athletic organization in the world. Barca is the mobilized embodiment of Catalan nationalism, from its motto “more than a club”, customs (Minut 17:14), leadership, to estelada flag displays. That the distraction model does not apply to FCB is obvious -- Catalonia is not a stable democracy. But who knows? Give Spain time to settle down a little then FCB may join the ranks of harmless useful sideshows.

Silmarien said:
From the fact that I follow Spanish football? Me, primarily.

The benefit you feel as a fan is no doubt real and it would be bad manners to diminish that in any way.

I was referring more to the objective benefit. FCB makes over $1B in revenue yearly, is worth over $3.6B, and pays its players an average $13 million. Commendable actually. American college football players generate millions and make zero.

TheOldWays · Oct 19, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
FWIW, I think most people in the US that are interested in mindfulness tend to be left of center.

Perhaps. I was a bit left of center when I got on the path of mindfulness. But committing to any side of political spectrum is anti-mindfulness. The more mindful I became/become, the more I can appreciate both left and right points of view and values.

FireDragon76 said:
But I think a major reason for that is because in the US the Right is associated with highly dogmatic religious outlooks and ideologies.

I find up here in Canada, most right leaning folks aren't that religious. But I do recognized the 'religious right' in the US is a thing.

TheOldWays · Oct 19, 2019

RayJeena said:
To the extent that I even bother with politics at all
(which is practically never), I can't lean too far left or
too far right.

Amen.

Silmarien · Oct 19, 2019

Carbon said:
Football Club of Barcelona may be the most politically useful athletic organization in the world. Barca is the mobilized embodiment of Catalan nationalism, from its motto “more than a club”, customs (Minut 17:14), leadership, to estelada flag displays. That the distraction model does not apply to FCB is obvious -- Catalonia is not a stable democracy. But who knows? Give Spain time to settle down a little then FCB may join the ranks of harmless useful sideshows.

Catalonia is unlikely to settle down anytime soon. Not after last week's verdict.

But I really don't understand your argument. Sports are useful distractions to the state, except only in stable democracies. In countries with serious political problems, sports can play a very different role, but we still think that "harmless useful sideshow" is the default model?

I think you could easily consider sports to be a pretty primal manifestation of tribalism that states sometimes seek to control, but it's really like playing with fire. It erupts in unexpected ways.

Carbon said:
The benefit you feel as a fan is no doubt real and it would be bad manners to diminish that in any way.

I was referring more to the objective benefit. FCB makes over $1B in revenue yearly, is worth over $3.6B, and pays its players an average $13 million. Commendable actually. American college football players generate millions and make zero.

The benefit I "feel" as a fan? I am actually thinking of objective benefits--spending a year following a sports team in a foreign language can be pretty useful. I don't follow that much anymore, but the benefits were definitely tangible.

Carbon · Oct 30, 2019

Silmarien said:
Catalonia is unlikely to settle down anytime soon. Not after last week's verdict.

We'll see what happens, buckle up.

Silmarien said:
But I really don't understand your argument. Sports are useful distractions to the state, except only in stable democracies. In countries with serious political problems, sports can play a very different role, but we still think that "harmless useful sideshow" is the default model?

I think you could easily consider sports to be a pretty primal manifestation of tribalism that states sometimes seek to control, but it's really like playing with fire. It erupts in unexpected ways.

You seem to understand the model fairly well. States are tool-agnostic, whatever gets the job done will do. Distractions are a solution to the “problem of Democracy”. If the state is not a democracy then we shouldn’t be surprised if sports are instead used as free overt propaganda for the public relations industry.

What is the default of the sports-as-tool model? Reasonable people can debate this point, but it’s not Catalonia.

Silmarien said:
The benefit I "feel" as a fan? I am actually thinking of objective benefits--spending a year following a sports team in a foreign language can be pretty useful. I don't follow that much anymore, but the benefits were definitely tangible.

Yes the benefit you presumably feel. Subjective feelings inside one primate’s brain are still an important objective fact about the world. Depending on the circumstances the thoughts of one ape could even be the most important fact in the universe. I am not saying this is one of those times.

But suggesting the individual fans benefit from their allegiance to the team more than the team or its advertisers or the nationalist Catalan state benefit is different and a harder case to make in the aggregate.

Carbon · Nov 3, 2019

This thread is attractive because it encodes a larger truth: satisfaction is the enemy of progress. And vice versa.

Therapeutic mindfulness is a way of making you happy with the way things are.

It's a tragedy of life not for the faint of heart. The engine of Progress runs on the fuel of dissatisfaction. Want progress? Get used to misery. If it’s happiness you’re after, better Candide yourself into believing this is the best of all possible worlds.

Jane_the_Bane · Nov 4, 2019

Carbon said:
This thread is attractive because it encodes a larger truth: satisfaction is the enemy of progress. And vice versa.

Therapeutic mindfulness is a way of making you happy with the way things are.

It's a tragedy of life not for the faint of heart. The engine of Progress runs on the fuel of dissatisfaction. Want progress? Get used to misery. If it’s happiness you’re after, better Candide yourself into believing this is the best of all possible worlds.

This might also be the key to understanding why our species is so spectacularly bad at reacting to the threats of global warming, pollution and mass extinction. At first glance, it is mystifying how homo sapiens seemingly devolves to the intelligence level of yeast in the face of these global problems, consuming and multiplying until we collapse in upon ourselves and drown in our waste products. After all, we understand nuclear physics, and in this case, specialists are also well-aware of the causes and can pinpoint with great accuracy what we need to do in order to combat the imminent cataclysm.

But doing nothing promises more COMFORT in the short run. Weaning us off of fossil fuels and overconsumption is dissatisfying. It means making ourselves MORE miserable (at least for now), so that we don't suffer even more in a future that the older people among us won't even live to see.
There's also other factors involved (such as powerful industries spending huge sums on propaganda to convince the populace that the threat isn't real, or there's a "controversy" within the scientific community), but I think this explanation really goes beyond individual gullibility and ignorance, and pierces the core of the problem.

TheOldWays · Nov 4, 2019

Carbon said:
If it’s happiness you’re after, better Candide yourself into believing this is the best of all possible worlds.

I like happiness. Not sure what candide means but I am actively moving forward to discover the best world possible. So far have had good success. Failure is embraced as a good thing I can learn from and use as a step to the next level.

Carbon said:
The engine of Progress runs on the fuel of dissatisfaction.

I agree. But there is different types of dissatisfaction. Group dissatisfaction usually leads to more enslavement by an egregore disguised as some sort of altruistic goal or idea of 'change' or 'progress'. But personal dissatisfaction is an incredibly powerful fuel to propel one to the next level.

zippy2006 · Nov 6, 2019

Jane_the_Bane said:
Yoga, "mindfulness" exercises, meditation:
quite a few spiritual practices have become increasingly popular in recent years, many of them divorced from the religious world views that gave birth to them.
But what troubles me here is that they are used as a kind of symptom suppressant for systemic problems plagueing our society: like swallowing pills that will dull your pain and lower your fever to keep you functional, while not actually curing the ailment that caused these health concerns to begin with.

People use spiritual practices in order to avoid burnout or other job-induced mental (or physiological) issues: instead of pausing and saying "hey, we should not let ourselves be exploited in such a fashion", they are just looking for ways on how to wring even more efficiency out of their already overburdened psyche.

It's a kind of pop-spirituality, a calorie-free energy drink with artificial flavors and sweetener.

I think this is a great post and I agree emphatically.

That said, I want to point out one redeeming quality of popular meditation that ibuprofen does not have. Meditation is a rope hanging from a helicopter that is being offered to distressed swimmers. Pop meditation is hanging onto the very end of the rope, catching your breath, and then dropping back into same senseless battle. But an important characteristic of meditation is that it is anchored in deeper realities. You can climb the rope. You can get into the helicopter. You can ask them to fly you to the hospital, or at least to land.

By "meditation" I also mean things like yoga, mindfulness, contemplation, hesychasm, etc. These things have roots in deeper realities: metaphysical, philosophical, theological, cultural, etc. Lots of people use the tail-end of the rope like RedBull, but don't forget that there is a rope, and it is possible to climb. Some people realize this when the waves become overwhelming.

zippy2006 · Nov 6, 2019

Jane_the_Bane said:
At first glance, it is mystifying how homo sapiens seemingly devolves to the intelligence level of yeast in the face of these global problems, consuming and multiplying until we collapse in upon ourselves and drown in our waste products.

It's the old question about whether man is an animal or a god.

Carbon · Nov 8, 2019

Jane_the_Bane said:
This might also be the key to understanding why our species is so spectacularly bad at reacting to the threats of global warming, pollution and mass extinction. At first glance, it is mystifying how homo sapiens seemingly devolves to the intelligence level of yeast in the face of these global problems, consuming and multiplying until we collapse in upon ourselves and drown in our waste products. After all, we understand nuclear physics, and in this case, specialists are also well-aware of the causes and can pinpoint with great accuracy what we need to do in order to combat the imminent cataclysm.

But doing nothing promises more COMFORT in the short run. Weaning us off of fossil fuels and overconsumption is dissatisfying. It means making ourselves MORE miserable (at least for now), so that we don't suffer even more in a future that the older people among us won't even live to see.
There's also other factors involved (such as powerful industries spending huge sums on propaganda to convince the populace that the threat isn't real, or there's a "controversy" within the scientific community), but I think this explanation really goes beyond individual gullibility and ignorance, and pierces the core of the problem.

Agreed but I am trying to be a lot more melodramatically bleak and despair oriented here.

The effort required to achieve any particular kind of progress may be unhappily difficult as you point out.

But the attitude of wanting progress in the first place is always unhappy, if happiness is derived from satisfaction with the way things are. For an obsessively progressive minded person there is no such thing as happiness.

Humans have tried a few hacks to this existential crisis. Nostalgia for the past. Four noble truths for the present. Apocalyptism for the future. None of these involves doing anything the change the way things are.

Unprogressive people blissfully ride the coattails is their miserable progressive neighbors.

The closest thing to happiness for a progressive is reorienting to happiness with the process instead of the result. A nifty trick if you are lucky enough to pull it off.

Rajni · Nov 8, 2019

Carbon said:
The closest thing to happiness for a progressive is reorienting to happiness with the process instead of the result. A nifty trick if you are lucky enough to pull it off.

In other words, "the joy is in the journey", as they say.
The emphasis on detaching from the fruits/results of action
is a dharmic approach to this, if I recall right. Lord Krishna
spoke of it in the Gita, anway.
In any case, I can dig it!

-

2PhiloVoid · Nov 8, 2019

Carbon said:
Agreed but I am trying to be a lot more melodramatically bleak and despair oriented here.

The effort required to achieve any particular kind of progress may be unhappily difficult as you point out.

But the attitude of wanting progress in the first place is always unhappy, if happiness is derived from satisfaction with the way things are. For an obsessively progressive minded person there is no such thing as happiness.

Humans have tried a few hacks to this existential crisis. Nostalgia for the past. Four noble truths for the present. Apocalyptism for the future. None of these involves doing anything the change the way things are.

Unprogressive people blissfully ride the coattails is their miserable progressive neighbors.

The closest thing to happiness for a progressive is reorienting to happiness with the process instead of the result. A nifty trick if you are lucky enough to pull it off.

Likely what needs to happen with progressives who seek societal change but realize that they live in an obviously slow to change or never really changing world is for them to learn to be happy with merely being egressive as they live and allow the truth to lay where and how it will.

Silmarien · Nov 9, 2019

Carbon said:
Agreed but I am trying to be a lot more melodramatically bleak and despair oriented here.

The effort required to achieve any particular kind of progress may be unhappily difficult as you point out.

But the attitude of wanting progress in the first place is always unhappy, if happiness is derived from satisfaction with the way things are. For an obsessively progressive minded person there is no such thing as happiness.

Humans have tried a few hacks to this existential crisis. Nostalgia for the past. Four noble truths for the present. Apocalyptism for the future. None of these involves doing anything the change the way things are.

Unprogressive people blissfully ride the coattails is their miserable progressive neighbors.

The closest thing to happiness for a progressive is reorienting to happiness with the process instead of the result. A nifty trick if you are lucky enough to pull it off.

Why would happiness be derived from satisfaction with the way things are? You seem to have confused it with complacency, and they're very much different things.

Carbon · Nov 9, 2019

Silmarien said:
Why would happiness be derived from satisfaction with the way things are? You seem to have confused it with complacency, and they're very much different things.

Above I mentioned the alternatives to linking happiness with present conditions which is currently the prevailing trend. If you want to put your hat in the ring then you can reach out to Jeffrey Sachs, director of the UN network behind the World Happiness Report. The WHP uses the Cantil ladder which like it’s predecessors (ex: SWLS) measures happiness primarily on the way things are today.

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