Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 7, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
No - that's NOT based on my logic at all. Modern Orthodox Judaism is NOT related to our religion. What practices they choose to follow....it's all on them......it's their idea, not God's.

I don't understand why you're so dogmatic about this. Where do you get the idea that it's "finished at Calvary or it was not"? You do realize that there was a time that Jesus had said He'd finished all His Father had sent Him to do even before He went to the cross.....right?

BABerean2 said: ↑
He built a New House out of two pieces of wood, and a handful of nails.
Once a new house is completed by a carpenter, the contract to build that house becomes "obsolete".

mkgal1 said: ↑
Who is "ignoring" Scripture?
Why not finish the REST of Hebrews 8:13?
Hebrews 8:13 ~ By saying, a new [ covenant ], He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.
......at least you admit you're not believing (or are ignoring) certain parts of Scripture.

BABerean2 said: ↑
Will the Old Covenant come back into effect if modern Jews rebuild a temple, and renew the animal sacrifices strictly according to the Old Testament methods?

mkgal1 said:
No. It disappeared in 70 A.D. it fully served its purpose by then.

BABerean2 said: ↑
Why did God rip the temple veil in half on the day Christ was sacrificed?

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Why did the author of the Book of Hebrews quote from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then say there is "now" no more offering for sin?

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Erik Nelson said:
2 Corinthians 3 (20 years after the crucifixion)
The Glory of the New Covenant
(Exodus 34:29-35)
7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! 10Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away.

BABerean2 said:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The Veil of Moses would be lifted off of the Jews' faces if they would read the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
The word "Revelation" also means "unveiling/uncovering"

602. apo-kalupsis from 601; disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
575. apo a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near),
2572. kalupto akin to 2813 and 2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.
2571. kaluma from 2572; a cover, i.e. veil:--vail.

Revelation 1:1 An unveiling/revealing <602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John
===================================
Exo 34:
34 But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. 35 And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.

2 Corinthians 3:12 Having then such hope, we use much freedom of speech,
13 and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,
14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant/Testament doth remain unwithdrawn — which in Christ is being made useless —

15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away
=============
Using a concordance, the words "Sanctuary" and "earthquake" also occurs in Revelation 11:19 !!!
First time I ever noticed that! AWESOME SAUCE!

Mat 27:51 Then behold! the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, [Mark 15:38 Luke 23:45 Revelation 11:9]

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY

Revelation 11:19 And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His Sanctuary,
and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

BABerean2 · Nov 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
The Veil of Moses would be lifted off of the Jews' faces if they would read the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
The word "Revelation" also means "unveiling/uncovering"

Did that happen during 70 AD?

.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The Veil of Moses would be lifted off of the Jews' faces if they would read the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
The word "Revelation" also means "unveiling/uncovering"
Mat 27:51 Then behold! the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
Revelation 11:19 And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His Sanctuary,
and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

BABerean2 said:
Did that happen during 70 AD?
.

Did it?

That would be a topic for another thread

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961>forty two months.

Which Sanctuary and Court are being measured in Revelation 11

*
1st century Herod's Temple/Sanctuary
3 vote(s)
50.0%
A future Jewish Temple/Sanctuary
1 vote(s)
16.7%
Both
0 vote(s)
0.0%
None of the above
1 vote(s)
16.7%
I don't know right now
0 vote(s)
0.0%
I have never thought about it
0 vote(s)
0.0%

BABerean2 · Nov 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Did it?

That would be a topic for another thread

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 7, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
.

I will let others respond.......you and I have been butting heads for a long time on the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 70AD.........

Luke 21 and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake........

Please visit my 70AD Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10 thread.....

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Daniel 11:33
And ones being intelligent<7919> of people they shall cause to understand to many-ones,
and they stumble<3782> in sword and in blaze<3852>, in captivity<7628> and in plunder days<3117>
[Sword and captive/captivity are mentioned together in only 2 verses of the NT:]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
========================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]

BABerean2 · Nov 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
you and I have been butting heads for a long time on the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 70AD.........

Luke 21 and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake........

Not really.

You have been ignoring the scripture which kills your 70 AD doctrine.

The fullness of the Gentiles found in Romans 11:25 is one of many examples.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The Veil of Moses would be lifted off of the Jews' faces if they would read the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
The word "Revelation" also means "unveiling/uncovering"
Mat 27:51 Then behold! the veil of the Sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
Revelation 11:19 And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His Sanctuary,
and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Click to expand...

BABerean2 said: ↑
Did that happen during 70 AD?

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Did it?

That would be a topic for another thread

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

BABerean2 said: ↑
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
you and I have been butting heads for a long time on the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 70AD.........

Luke 21 and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake........

BABerean2 said:
Not really.
You have been ignoring the scripture which kills your 70 AD doctrine.
The fullness of the Gentiles found in Romans 11:25 is one of many examples.
.

And you are ignoring scripture to support your Zionist Futurist doctrine......

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 7, 2019

Double post.............

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

.

We've had that discussion recently right here:
2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

BABerean2 · Nov 7, 2019

mkgal1 said:
We've had that discussion recently right here:
2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

Are you sure about that?

.

BABerean2 · Nov 7, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
And you are ignoring scripture to support your Zionist Futurist doctrine......

I am not a "Zionist", but I will have to accept the "Partial-Futurist" label.

Some here claim to be a "Partial-Preterist", but cannot accept the "Partial-Futurist" label, because they are really "Full-Preterists", in disquise.
They do not wish to be labeled as promoting a "heretical" doctrine.

.

mkgal1 · Nov 7, 2019

mkgal1 said:
On this forum there seems to be a hypersensitivity to words like "all" when it comes to prophecy that's been fulfilled about Christ. There also seems to be confusion as to what - exactly - is heretical about preterism (IOW - how does it diminish the glory and nature of God?).

I came across this article (What Is Orthodox Preterism? - Deeper Waters ) and thought it seems to clarify well a distinction here (that it's heresy to deny the physical resurrection of Jesus):

Do you believe everything was fulfilled in 70 A.D.?

Absolutely not! That is a position that is often known as full Preterism or true Preterism or often the people who hold it just refer to it as simply Preterism. My position by contrast to them is known as partial Preterism. I do not accept that label for reasons I will give soon.

I consider this view heretical actually. Why? Because if our resurrection is only spiritual and our resurrection is to be like Jesus’s, then Jesus must have a spiritual resurrection, which denies the bodily resurrection. I prefer to call this position Neohymenaeanism. ~ What Is Orthodox Preterism? - Deeper Waters

But there's a difference between "coming" and "return" of Christ (and that is NOT heresy).

Quoting from above linked article: Jesus’s coming and His return are often confused. In Matthew 24 and the parallel passages, it refers not to the resurrection, which is NOWHERE mentioned in any of these passages, but refers to His coming to His throne. The sign that He is on the throne will be His enemies are judged. His enemies then were His contemporaries. They were not some far off distant generation. A number of times in Matthew’s Gospel, Matthew uses the term “this generation.” Every other time it means Jesus’s own contemporaries. ~ What Is Orthodox Preterism? - Deeper Waters

Is there disagreement with that?

The other part is this - about replacement theology:

Quoting same article: Do you think Israel has replaced the church?

I find it odd to say that I am a replacement theologian. How could I be? God has one covenant that He honors and one people. With Israel in the Old Testament, there was always a remnant there that was true Israel. These are the same ones that recognized Jesus as the Messiah. With ministry in Acts, Israel is expanded to include Gentiles. There is still one olive tree. God did not chop down the tree of Israel and plant a new tree of Gentiles.

On the other hand, if you do hold that God is dealing with the church in this age and will return to Israel in the end, well guess what. Right now, the church has replaced Israel as God’s focus. That is the real replacement theology. I don’t hold to it. I hold to an expansion theology. God has expanded His grace ever more to include Jews and Gentiles both in one tree together. ~ What Is Orthodox Preterism? - Deeper Waters

Agreed? If not.....why do you disagree?

The OP

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 7, 2019

BABerean2 said:
I am not a "Zionist", but I will have to accept the "Partial-Futurist" label.

Some here claim to be a "Partial-Preterist", but cannot accept the "Partial-Futurist" label, because they are really "Full-Preterists", in disquise.
They do not wish to be labeled as promoting a "heretical" doctrine.
.

Yep. Sad but true....

BABerean2 · Nov 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
your Zionist

The following is my viewpoint of "Zionism".

Do you deny it now exists?

.

Erik Nelson · Nov 8, 2019

Matthew 5:18

Paul twice took Nazirite vows in the 50s AD, and James brother of the Lord and bishop of Jerusalem prayed daily in the temple until 62AD

Jewish Christians kept the Law until 70AD

evidently that was when all was fulfilled?

or is the Law still in effect until FJ?

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 8, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Matthew 5:18

Paul twice took Nazirite vows in the 50s AD, and James brother of the Lord and bishop of Jerusalem prayed daily in the temple until 62AD

Jewish Christians kept the Law until 70AD

evidently that was when all was fulfilled?

or is the Law still in effect until FJ?

IF I am reading these verses correctly, anyone that is in Christ all the Old things have passes away, including the Old heaven and earth......perhaps symbolizing the OC Mosaic Temple worship passing away in 70ad?

1Co 5:7
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[fn]
2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Heb 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.
Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Rev 21:1
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

Heaven and Earth passing away - what does this mean?

mkgal1 said:
That topic has recently come up in another thread and it really is its own thread.

When we read these passages - is this the literal earth and literal heaven......or does it mean something else:

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

......and this question was also asked:

Views on the New Heaven and Earth in Revelation 21:1

Isaiah 66:22-24 " new heavens new earth" "dead bodies" "worm does not die, unquenchable fire"

Has anyone studied on Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9 concerning the gehenna of fire where he worn doesn't die and fire isn't quenched?

Isaiah 66
22“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure.
23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord.

24“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
======================
Mark 9:43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to be entering into the life, than having the two hands to go away to the gehenna, to the fire--the unquenchable-- 44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 `And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire--the unquenchable-- 46 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire-- 48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
============================
How do others view these videos on the gehenna and worm does no die.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are you sure about that?

.

It sure looks that way to me.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Since modern Orthodox Jews renewed animal sacrifices in Jerusalem this year, does that mean the Church is not now "full grown"?

I don't understand why you keep bringing in the modern Orthodox Jews into our study of the Bible. They are two separate religions. Maybe I can illustrate what I mean.

Let's say my husband cast out a stray cat from our home that had sneaked its way in saying that he doesn't want cats in the house because of all the fur they shed. Years later.....if our neighbor down the street adopts a cat and brings it into their home - does that mean my husband changed his mind about cat hair in our home? Does that mean that I could then adopt my own cat? I ask it that way - because I see that as comparable to what you're asking.....except your comparison is thousands of years later.....making the separation even greater. The Hindis have temples......should we bring them into the comparison as well? Should we consider their temples fulfillment of God's prophecy somehow?

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
The Apostle Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in the passage below.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

From what I understand - this issue Paul was addressing was about one specific part of the Law (circumcision). The people of Galatia were mostly uncircumcised Gentiles (of whom the Law of Moses wasn't relevant)....and the Judaizers were spreading the heresy that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be followers of Christ. The trouble was - again, as far as I understand - this was creating a hybrid religion that God didn't intend. The Law was fading away (in the fullness of His time it would disappear)....and circumcision wasn't meant for Gentiles. They were heirs of a "better promise" going back to Galatians 3 (still with Abraham as their shared father with the Jews just as Ishmael & Isaac shared Abraham as their father):

Galatians 3:29 ~ And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

....the question - addressed in Galatians 4 - was "who is your mother?".....works of the flesh or His promise? Those that aligned themselves with the bondwoman (relying on circumcision for salvation) and rejected the "free woman" as their "mother" were due to be cast out and denied inheritance from the Father.

From Adam Clarke's commentary on Gal 4:
Verse 30
What saith the Scripture? - (In Genesis 21:10 ) : Cast out the bond woman and her son: and what does this imply in the present case? Why, that the present Jerusalem and her children shall be cast out of the favor of God, and shall not be heirs with the son of the free woman - shall not inherit the blessings promised to Abraham, because they believe not in the promised seed.

mkgal1 · Nov 8, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Based on your logic, since sacrifices are going on today, it must not be over at this time.

It was either finished at Calvary, or it was not.

.

mkgal1 said:
No - that's NOT based on my logic at all. Modern Orthodox Judaism is NOT related to our religion. What practices they choose to follow....it's all on them......it's their idea, not God's.

I don't understand why you're so dogmatic about this. Where do you get the idea that it's "finished at Calvary or it was not"? You do realize that there was a time that Jesus had said He'd finished all His Father had sent Him to do even before He went to the cross.....right?

John 17:4 ~ "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."

Just pointing out that this question remains unanswered ("where do you get the idea that 'it's finished at CAlvary or it was not' ?").

Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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