On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel

setst777 said:

Why is it you deliberately quoted only the last part of the Passage that I referenced? Isn't that being dishonest with God and His Word just to hold onto your man-made doctrines?

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Not dishonest, the emphasis is on what God has done, not on what man does.
We received Him because we were born of God. You must not believe in this either,

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

If God did not make us born again first, Christ would not have had any brethren as no one would have believed in Him. As the carnal mind is at enmity with God and can not be submitted to God. A natural mind, the one of your first birth is a carnal mind which will not believe in Christ and can not please God.

If you honestly think about it, it will make sense. If not you, I know someone will benefit from me showing this in scripture.

setst777 said:

The quotes you provided do not teach which came first - faith or being born again. The Passages you quoted only show that those who believe are born of God. Yet, you are trying to force God into saying something He clearly did not say.

In fact, the Passages I gave show exactly when we are born of God - only by believing.

In fact, the Passages I gave show exactly how one receives the Spirit - only by faith.

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Receiving the Spirit by faith is in reference to be given spiritual gifts!

AND EVEN YOUR FAITH is given to you as a spiritual gift of God. Everything you have received is due to his love for you and is a gift.
example in Ephesians 2, this is a faith not of yourself being the gift of God. And also says we are His workmanship, we are not our own maker.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And more directly about faith here, but you will not understand any of this unless given the grace to know the truth..that your faith is a gift of God.
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

God has chosen you to be in Christ, or you wont be in Christ.
'But of Him you are in Christ'
Which means if it was not because of Him at work in you to change you, give you a new heart, a new spirit, you would not know Him at all.

The flesh wants to claim ownership of it's salvation, but the flesh profits nothing, and is dead.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

The Spirit blows where it wishes and they are born again as spirit, according to His choice, purpose and will. You can not control the wind. And the wind can be very subtle and move in odd directions, you even notice that in the natural world, one area can feel a breeze and another there is nothing.

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

sdowney717 said:

We received Him because we were born of God. You must not believe in this either,

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

If God did not make us born again first, Christ would not have had any brethren as no one would have believed in Him. As the carnal mind is at enmity with God and can not be submitted to God. A natural mind, the one of your first birth is a carnal mind which will not believe in Christ and can not please God.

If you honestly think about it, it will make sense. If not you, I know someone will benefit from me showing this in scripture.

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"John 1:12-13" does not teach that we are born of God before we received or believed in Him. And we only receive the Spirit of God by faith.

Regarding your Romans 8 quotes I write as follows:

Romans 8:28-30 is only a summary of which the Scriptures expound on.

Calvinists are pre-defining what each of those terms (purpose, foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified) according to Calvin's ideology rather that founding those terms on the actual context of Scripture.

Romans 8 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.

Here is how Scripture actually applies this summary in context...

• God truly works out good for all those that love Him.
• God predestined those whom God foreknew (those who would believe at the hearing of the Gospel God foreknew, and predestined them for Salvation) to be conformed to the image of His son.
• Those God predestined, He called (by the Gospel invitation and the convicting work of the Spirit, but the Spirit's convicting work can be resisted).
• Those who are called by the Gospel, (if they do not resist the Spirit, but believe as Scripture states), then ...
• He justifies (we are justified by faith according to all the Scriptures). Those he justifies He also glorifies - salvation.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The Calvinist like to respond by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 out of context and then supply their own meaning to it.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to Holy Scripture,

• Is faith a product of God’s saving grace?

• Is faith onto salvation ever taught to be a gift of God?

• Is faith onto salvation ever taught to be a work?

• Is faith onto salvation an act of God’s grace?

Scripturally, God’s saving grace and mercy are received only by faith just as we read from Scripture itself.

Clear examples are: Ephesians 2:8; Romans 1:16-17; Romans 5:1-2. See also: Hebrews 11; John 3:14-18; 1 Peter 1:4-9.

Is faith unto salvation a gift?

No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God. Some ‘scholars’ object, citing “1 Corinthians 12:9” and “Romans 12:3-8.” However, these Scriptures are discussing the gifts of the Spirit and the faith to carry out specific gifts - to those already saved.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that “Gift” refers to God’s saving grace – God graciously accrediting righteousness to those of faith. This “Gift” of grace is righteousness onto salvation, and is only receive by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5 (just quoted) teaches that we receive God’s Gift (being accredited righteousness) by Faith. See also: Romans 5:17. Faith itself is not the gift.

The “Gift of God” is God graciously imputing His righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

The ability to believe is not by receiving the Spirit, because the Spirit (and regeneration thereof) is only received by faith.

You must come and drink to be regenerated:

Revelation 22:17
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

So does regeneration of the Spirit come so one can believe?
OR
Must one believe first to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Regeneration of the indwelling Spirit only by faith...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Let’s review another Scripture. . .

Romans 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The “gift of God” refers to “eternal life.” We only receive God’s gracious gift of eternal life though faith in Christ Jesus according to every Scripture in the Bible, in context. Examples were given. EX: John 3:16-18; Romans 5:1-3

Considering the evidence, we must conclude that the second sentence of Ephesians 2:8-9 “this is not of yourselves but is the gift of God – not of works” must be referring back to the subject “By grace are you saved,” which is the gift of God, not of works. This is what Scripture actually teaches in context.

Is Faith a Work?
Let’s go a step further, and show conclusively whether faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a “work” in Scripture.

Romans 3:27-28 (WEB) Bolding mine… 27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 9:30-33 (WEB) Bolding mine… 32 They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense; and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.”

Galatians 2:15-16 (WEB) Bolding mine… 15 We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Clearly then, if we review the context of Scripture, faith is contrasted to, or the opposite of, works according to the inspired Word of God.

Scripture itself teaches us, then, that:

• faith is not by God’s grace
• faith is not God’s gift
• faith is not God's work

Rather, we gain access to the gift of saving grace (not by works) through faith in Christ Jesus - Romans 5:1-2.

Faith is, therefore, each person's responsibility after hearing the Gospel - and faith is not a work.

Continued...

Continued...
But how does faith come to one who is dead in sin?

Those who believe were first drawn by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. For not everyone drawn by the Spirit will believe - many will resist.

Drawn how? By the Gospel word coupled with the convicting work of the Spirit to draw people to Christ.

John 12:32 (WEB)
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

But many resist the Spirit...

Many have and will grieve and resist the Spirit and Word and its enlightening, convicting and drawing work, and be lost.

Acts 7 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63:10 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Psalm 106:32 (WEB) Bolding mine…32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord, and trouble came to Moses because of them; 33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.

Ephesians 4:30-31 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice.

Hebrews 10:29 (WEB) Bolding mine… 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Therefore, although the Spirit draws all people to Christ through the Gospel,

• Not everyone drawn will believe because they resist.
• Also, those who believe, those who have the Spirit, can so grieve and insult the Spirit of grace so as to lose their salvation.

As the Scriptures say:

‘You must remain in Christ (the Vine) to be eternally saved.’
‘You must remain faithful to remain in the Holy Olive Root to remain saved or you will be cut off’ (See: Romans 11).

Even when the believer has the Spirit living in them by faith, they still are responsible to live by that Spirit to receive Life....

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:8-9 (WEB)
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Who are the ones that God gives to the Son?… What do the Scriptures say?

Answer: God gives to the Son those who listen to God – taught by God.

John 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.

Who are those who will listen to and be taught by God to Christ?

The Scriptures teach that God foreknew the humble will listen to God, and so will be the ones drawn by the Spirit and Word to Christ. Those who humble themselves are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation.

Psalm 25 (WEB) 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Those who humble themselves are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation.

Psalm 18 (WEB)
27 For you will save the humble

God promised the humble, in many prophecies, that He would bring them justice and save the humble.

Psalm 18 (WEB)
27 For you will save the humble, but the haughty eyes you will bring down.

God is keeping His promise to all those who humble themselves.

Lord Jesus was sent by the Father to preach the Gospel to the humble and poor in Spirit to fulfill God's promise to them - and they will listen...

Isaiah 61:1-2 (WEB)
(Jesus applied this prophecy to himself)
1 The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of Yahweh’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn

All through the Scriptures we are taught that God favors the humble, but He resists the proud.

The Gospel was designed to draw only the simple and humble of this world to Christ - for God has mercy on the humble.

Luke 10 (WEB) 21 In that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.”

So in Ephesians 2:9 we read as follows:

• “this is not of yourselves,
• it is the gift of God
• not of works lest any man should boast”

It’s all referring back to the subject in Ephesians 2:8, which is:

“By grace are you have been saved” (the gift and work of God).

Why? . . . because

• Faith is not by grace.
• Faith is not a gift
• Faith is not a work.

Rather, Scripture only refers to:

• Salvation that is by God’s Grace.
• Salvation that is the Gift of God
• Salvation that is the work of God

God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –

*is receive by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)
*is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)
*The end result of your faith is your salvation (1 Peter 1:9)

By faith I am justified Rm 5:1
By faith I am accredited righteousness Romans 4:4-5
By faith, not works, do I receive the free gift of salvation Rm 9:30-33
By faith I receive His Spirit - (at least six Passages teach this)
By faith I am born of God John 1:12-13
By faith I receive the power of God onto salvation Rm 1:16-17
By faith I access God's saving grace Rm 5:1-2
By faith I am kept by God's Power until the end 1 Peter 1:4-5
The end result of my faith is my salvation 1 Peter 1:9

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Rm 1:16-17

What about Ephesians 2:10?

Ephesians 2:10 (WEB) states: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

The Christian is “created in Christ” by the Spirit we receive by faith:

Ephesians 1 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The “good works” God prepared for us to do is only accomplished when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, regeneration is God’s work in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.

To do the good works that God created us for, we must, by faith, be in Christ, which is to be obedient to His Spirit who lives in us by faith to be saved. We saw the Scriptures. And that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (living by God’s Spirit in us). By so doing, God is working out His will in our lives.

Philippians 2 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Paul is not teaching a works salvation here; but rather, Paul is establishing that a Bible faith in Christ means we are dead to the old master of the sinful nature, and are now disciples of Christ, living by His Spirit. . . “19 Go, and make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19). We are dead to the old life and alive in Christ.

To be created in Christ is salvation, which is God’s regenerative work from sin and death – only in those who faithfully walk by God’s Spirit whom they receive by faith. As we saw by Scripture, God’s gift of saving grace is only accessed by faith - and faith is not a work, nor is faith a product of God's grace; rather we gain access to God's Grace by Faith. This begins the New Life in the Spirit. The end result of your faith is your salvation.

dad said:

We are all like dead bodies lying there till we get saved. We do not get saved by works or get life. The idea is to love Him and have Him in our life. THEN, and only then can we start to keep some commandments and when we fail and break some...tough! Such is eternal life, we learn, we get corrected etc. We do not get cast into hell!

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Yes - man on his own is just a dead body, and there are more dead bodies lying around than there are living ones walking around today.

The Pharisees believed in the Kingdom but did not recognise it when it was shown to them.

BCsenior said:

This is continuing to have faith after being saved!
Plus, there is the gift of faith (1 Cor 12), which is incredibly powerful faith
... which only those with the baptism with the Holy Spirit are given.
David, you SO much backwards that it's truly amazing.

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Not really, you must have the Holy Spirit before you can have the fruit.

There are many people in the world who produce fruits showing they put the will of God first which is a non-selfish self centred life, who have never heard of God.

BCsenior said:

I see NO problem with God electing some people for salvation
(why He chooses some over others is His perogative),
and some of these folks NOT co-operating with God's Plan,
thereby losing the salvation that God had planned for them!

What's the problem? He gave all men free will.
Except ...
Before being born-again, Satan has blinded all men
(spiritually) and has them in captivity, in his bondage, etc.
No likeee this spiritual Truth? ... Too bad, 'cause it's all Scripture.

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Never heard any one claim the elect could be lost. Seems to me that you have to read it one way or the other. Either election is not individual or it can't be lost. Either we become part of a corporate " elect" body when we believe.( Those who are in Christ) and exit the body of the elect when we don't believe. Or we are simply fated to believe and it can't be lost. I believe in corporate election.

renniks said:

Never heard any one claim the elect could be lost. Seems to me that you have to read it one way or the other. Either election is not individual or it can't be lost. Either we become part of a corporate " elect" body when we believe.( Those who are in Christ) and exit the body of the elect when we don't believe. Or we are simply fated to believe and it can't be lost. I believe in corporate election.

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...
the real problem seems to be those who claim to be elect who are not, those who think they are elect but are not, those who are elect but don't do what the elect do, and those who used to be elect....

God Knows.

Men usually don't know.

Nothing will change that: not threads nor posts nor even someone coming back from the dead to tell others.

The title is 'On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel'

The Gospel is of the Kingdom. The ways of the Kingdom are foreign/opposite to the traditional ways of man. Those who are oppressed by the traditional self serving ways of mankind should have no problem accepting the Gospel of the Kingdom or even hoping for a life where the traditional ways of man would not exist. Nor would they being oppressed, wish to act in the ways of the oppressors... unless they still believed in the old eye for an eye philosophy.

dad said:

No! That is a commandment and what we ought to do when saved! That is not a way to keep being saved...or to save us! His commandment is to believe on Him. Not all Christians love Him as much as they should, and maybe even as they will one day! Look at Peter.

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I know about Peter's denial of Christ 3 times and Christ forgave Peter by "erasing" it with asking him if he loves Him 3 times. But there is a condition and yet there is not at the same time. It's actually harder for me to articulate/convey. The condition is to stay with Him and not sin (no habitual sin), yes we stumble and fall a lot but that is not habitual sin. We get back up and dust ourselves off to move forward with Christ. Where I do not think its any longer a condition is where you love Christ so much that you think about Him all the time, no matter what the situation is - that you want to be on His side or with Him all the time.

Dave L said:

Our fallen wills cannot discern spiritual truth. We choose only idols we worship as Christ unless born again.

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The Great Shepherd seeks us out despite any weakness we may have.

Jesus said things as truth to open audiences. Many then either believed, or not.
Example:

Lu 20:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. 2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. 3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

If they could not discern truth Jesus was wasting breath? In case you don't know the setting ot who He was talking to in the previous chapter we see this

"Then in the audience of all the people he said.."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yes - man on his own is just a dead body, and there are more dead bodies lying around than there are living ones walking around today.

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So maybe if you start presenting them the actual Jesus and what He is like and did and gave us, rather than, as some do, preach some god who locked in the eternal fates of men to heaven and hell, a lot of them dead bones would start walking and jumpin for joy.

Swan7 said:

I know about Peter's denial of Christ 3 times and Christ forgave Peter by "erasing" it with asking him if he loves Him 3 times. But there is a condition and yet there is not at the same time. It's actually harder for me to articulate/convey. The condition is to stay with Him and not sin (no habitual sin), yes we stumble and fall a lot but that is not habitual sin.

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Yeah, but we also Peter mouthing Satan's words - being the mouthpiece of the devil- to Jesus. We saw Peter deny Jesus, and flee from Him in the garden, and go back to his old job of fishing, and assault a man in attempted murder. Doesn't seem like a one off to me Now if people would concentrate on Jesus maybe they would not be sitting around some church looking for the motes in other people's eyes, but focus on the huge piece of wood in their own eyes. God cares for His Own, and if some believer wanders too far or sins too much, He will deal with them. As David says, His judgments are to be sought more than fine gold. It is a wonderful thing that He will correct us as a Father corrects His child. Even if some sin so bad they have to have their life on earth ended, great! That is the mercy of God. To see church people sitting around pointing fingers at other fallen believers, (or so called fallen in their judgmental eyes) claiming things like 'oh they must have never reaaallly saved in the first place', or 'thank God I am not as that sinner' etc etc gives me the creeps.

We get back up and dust ourselves off to move forward with Christ.

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True...or maybe He gives us a dunk in a cold river to clean the smelly crud off..etc.

Where I do not think its any longer a condition is where you love Christ so much that you think about Him all the time, no matter what the situation is - that you want to be on His side or with Him all the time.

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I think you got the idea. Maybe some of these harsh calvies might want to tone it down a bit next time they see a brother falling and think of it as one of many hundreds of sins or falls a good man makes, rather than saying something like 'He never was much of a christian anyhow and was not in the predestination books as I suspected..blah blah'.

Maria Billingsley said:

Due to their hardened heart which they produced on their own. Babies are not born with a hardened heart. We become hardened.

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How? Is it your position that it is possible for a man to be born and never "harden his heart"?