On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel

Dave L · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
All kings of the OT were anointed by God's Spirit to rule over Israel, but the Spirit was not yet given to those who believed until Christ Jesus was glorified - As the Scriptures teach.

King David was repenting of his terrible sin.

You are confusing the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the New Birth that believers had since the garden of eden.

Dave L · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
You didn't reply to the Scriptures given.

You choose to believe that one must be saved before they can believe - That is NOT what Scripture teaches.

You choose to believe that one receives the Spirit so they can believe - That is NOT what Scripture teaches.

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;

By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

Try reading them as identifying marks of believers instead of works for the self-righteous to use trying to save themselves.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
You are confusing the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the New Birth that believers had since the garden of eden.

Not at all.

Read what the Scriptures actually state:

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;

By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

Dave L · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
Not at all.

Read what the Scriptures actually state:

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;

By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must be saved before you can believe.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
Try reading them as identifying marks of believers instead of works for the self-righteous to use trying to save themselves.

Try reading the Scriptures in context. You will see that the Scriptures teach that only by faith do we receive the Spirit.

Only by faith are we saved. The Scriptures do not teach that we are saved so we can believe.

Clear your mind of the doctrines you have learned, and take Scripture at its word.

Dave L · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
Try reading the Scriptures in context. You will see that the Scriptures teach that only by faith do we receive the Spirit.

Only by faith are we saved. The Scriptures do not teach that we are saved so we can believe.

Clear your mind of the doctrines you have learned, and take Scripture at its word.

I can't help it, faith is a fruit of salvation.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must be saved before you can believe.

Your mind is now in a loop - pitting one Scripture against another.

You are forming a whole doctrine of your making because you see the word "faith" as being one of the fruits of the Spirit. Yet, nothing in that Passage states or teaches any doctrine regarding that faith. Rather, you have to find the context and doctrinal teaching on such things by searching the Passages that clearly instruct about the gifts of the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit are only evident in those who believe. So if only believes have the fruit of the Spirit, then what are the fruits? One of the fruits is faith to carry out gifts of the Spirit as other Scriptures more clearly instruct.

Dave L · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
Your mind is now in a loop - pitting one Scripture against another.

You are forming a whole doctrine of your making because you see the word "faith" as being one of the fruits of the Spirit. Yet, nothing in that Passage states or teaches any doctrine regarding that faith. Rather, you have to find the context and doctrinal teaching on such things by searching the Passages that clearly instruct about the gifts of the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit are only evident in those who believe. So if only believes have the fruit of the Spirit, then what are the fruits? One of the fruits is faith to carry out gifts of the Spirit as other Scriptures more clearly instruct.

The flesh cannot believe at a spiritual level. It can only believe in a false Christ it finds appealing. Many worship idols today they think are Jesus.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
I can't help it, faith is a fruit of salvation.

To learn what kind of faith is spoken about you have to read the context.

You can't have it both ways...

Either we are saved by faith or we are saved so we can believe. The Bible clearly teaches we must believe to be saved in hundreds of Passages - OT and NT.

Either we must receive the Spirit to believe, or you believe so you may receive the Spirit. The Bible clearly teaches we must believe so we can receive the Spirit of God.

No Passage states or teaches that faith is the fruit of salvation, only that faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit. No doctrine is given in that Passage about what kind of faith is being addressed. You have to go to other Scriptures to find the doctrine on the gifts of the Spirit.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
The flesh cannot believe at a spiritual level. It can only believe in a false Christ it finds appealing. Many worship idols today they think are Jesus.

How true that is. That is why only a remnant in the Church will actually be saved.

Dave L · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
To learn what kind of faith is spoken about you have to read the context.

You can't have it both ways...

Either we are saved by faith or we are saved so we can believe. The Bible clearly teaches we must believe to be saved in hundreds of Passages - OT and NT.

Either we must receive the Spirit to believe, or you believe so you may receive the Spirit. The Bible clearly teaches we must believe so we can receive the Spirit of God.

No Passage states or teaches that faith is the fruit of salvation, only that faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit. No doctrine is given in that Passage about what kind of faith is being addressed. You have to go to other Scriptures to find the doctrine on the gifts of the Spirit.

Faith before the New Birth is flesh faith that cannot save. Faith after the New Birth is Holy Spirit faith that overcomes sin.

sdowney717 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
Faith before the New Birth is flesh faith that cannot save. Faith after the New Birth is Holy Spirit faith that overcomes sin.

True and Romans 8 says this well.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
Faith before the New Birth is flesh faith that cannot save. Faith after the New Birth is Holy Spirit faith that overcomes sin.

Dave, that is only your opinion formed from the doctrines you were taught.

No Scripture in the entire Bible teaches that the New Birth comes before believing. And don't think to quote only part of John 3 and delete John 3:16-18 which is the summary explanation of the instruction given by Jesus - And of which the other Scriptures confirm....

For Instance:

The Scriptures clearly teach that we are only born of God by faith.
John 1:12-13

We are only children of God by faith.
Galatians 3:26

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith:
John 7:37-39

What are the above Scriptures teaching?

sdowney717 · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
Dave, that is only your opinion formed from the doctrines you were taught.

No Scripture in the entire Bible teaches that the New Birth comes before believing. And don't think to quote only part of John 3 and delete John 3:16-18 which is the summary explanation of the instruction given by Jesus - And of which the other Scriptures confirm....

For Instance:

The Scriptures clearly teach that we are only born of God by faith.
John 1:12-13

We are only children of God by faith.
Galatians 3:26

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith:
John 7:37-39

What are the above Scriptures teaching?

Your very first reference shows the opposite of what your saying. We are born of God by God's will according to His mercy and not by our faith and our will.

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

sdowney717 said:
True and Romans 8 says this well.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Where in Romans 8 does it state that Faith comes after the New Birth is Holy Spirit?

Where in Romans 8 does it ever teach anything about HOW we receive the Spirit?

HOW do we receive the Spirit?

What do the Scriptures actually teach?

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith:
John 7:37-39

sdowney717 · Nov 8, 2019

So what comes first, God's action or man's faith?? Obviously, it is God, we love because He first loved us. It is because of His love for us that he made us begotten again. Since the natural carnal mind refuses God and can not be submitted to God, We must be born again first to see the kingdom of God, or we won't be believing in Christ.

1 John 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

And this version shows it better.

1 John 5 English Standard Version (ESV)

1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

The reason a man believes is he has been born again of God's will.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Your very first reference shows the opposite of what your saying. We are born of God by God's will according to His mercy and not by our faith and our will.

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Why is it you deliberately quoted only the last part of the Passage that I referenced? Isn't that being dishonest with God and His Word just to hold onto your man-made doctrines?

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Dave L · Nov 8, 2019

setst777 said:
Dave, that is only your opinion formed from the doctrines you were taught.

No Scripture in the entire Bible teaches that the New Birth comes before believing. And don't think to quote only part of John 3 and delete John 3:16-18 which is the summary explanation of the instruction given by Jesus - And of which the other Scriptures confirm....

For Instance:

The Scriptures clearly teach that we are only born of God by faith.
John 1:12-13

We are only children of God by faith.
Galatians 3:26

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith:
John 7:37-39

What are the above Scriptures teaching?

But, faith is a fruit of the Holy spirit = you must be saved before you can believe in any true sense.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

sdowney717 said:
So what comes first, God's action or man's faith?? Obviously, it is God, we love because He first loved us. It is because of His love for us that he made us begotten again. Since the natural carnal mind refuses God and can not be submitted to God, We must be born again first to see the kingdom of God, or we won't be believing in Christ.

1 John 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

And this version shows it better.

1 John 5 English Standard Version (ESV)

1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

The reason a man believes is he has been born again of God's will.

The quotes you provided do not teach which came first - faith or being born again. The Passages you quoted only show that those who believe are born of God. Yet, you are trying to force God into saying something He clearly did not say.

In fact, the Passages I gave show exactly when we are born of God - only by believing.

In fact, the Passages I gave show exactly how one receives the Spirit - only by faith.

setst777 · Nov 8, 2019

Dave L said:
But, faith is a fruit of the Holy spirit = you must be saved before you can believe in any true sense.

God clearly teaches all through the Scriptures that we are saved by faith. No exceptions.

On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel

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