Osas and apostasy

BNR32FAN said:

They didn’t translate those little word “of and in” because they are not in the Greek translations. They added them. The KJV is not my preference because of its influence from the Geneva bible and reformed theology.

Romans 3:22

22 δικαιοσύνη (righteousness) G1343 N-NFS δὲ (even) G1161 Conj θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS διὰ (through) G1223 Prep πίστεως (faith) G4102 N-GFS Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) G2424 N-GMS Χριστοῦ (Christ) G5547 N-GMS εἰς (unto) G1519 Prep πάντας (all) G3956 Adj-AMP τοὺς (those) G3588 Art-AMP πιστεύοντας (believe) G4100 V-PPA-AMP οὐ (no) G3756 Adv γάρ (for) G1063 Conj ἐστιν (is) G1510 V-PI-3S διαστολή (distinction) G1293 N-NFS

Galatians 2:16

16 εἰδότες (Knowing) G1492 V-RPA-NMP δὲ (nevertheless) G1161 Conj ὅτι (since) G3754 Conj οὐ (no) G3756 Adv δικαιοῦται (justified) G1344 V-PIM/P-3S ἄνθρωπος (man) G444 N-NMS ἐξ (by) G1537 Prep ἔργων (works) G2041 N-GNP νόμου (law) G3551 N-GMS ἐὰν (if) G1437 Conj μὴ (not) G3361 Adv διὰ (through) G1223 Prep πίστεως (faith) G4102 N-GFS Χριστοῦ (Jesus) G5547 N-GMS Ἰησοῦ (Christ) G2424 N-GMS καὶ (even) G2532 Conj ἡμεῖς (we) G1473 PPro-N1P εἰς (in) G1519 Prep Χριστὸν (Christ) G5547 N-AMS Ἰησοῦν (Jesus) G2424 N-AMS ἐπιστεύσαμεν (believed) G4100 V-AIA-1P ἵνα (so) G2443 Conj δικαιωθῶμεν (justified) G1344 V-ASP-1P ἐκ (by) G1537 Prep πίστεως (faith) G4102 N-GFS Χριστοῦ (Christ) G5547 N-GMS καὶ (even) G2532 Conj οὐκ (no) G3756 Adv ἐξ (by) G1537 Prep ἔργων (works) G2041 N-GNP νόμου (law) G3551 N-GMS ὅτι (since) G3754 Conj ἐξ (by) G1537 Prep ἔργων (works) G2041 N-GNP νόμου (law) G3551 N-GMS οὐ (no) G3756 Adv δικαιωθήσεται (justified) G1344 V-FIP-3S πᾶσα (every) G3956 Adj-NFS σάρξ (flesh) G4561 N-NFS

Revelation 14:12

12 Ὧδε (here) G5602 Adv ἡ (the) G3588 Art-NFS ὑπομονὴ (perseverance) G5281 N-NFS τῶν (the) G3588 Art-GMP ἁγίων (saints) G40 Adj-GMP ἐστίν (is) G1510 V-PI-3S οἱ (the) G3588 Art-NMP τηροῦντες (keep) G5083 V-PPA-NMP τὰς (the) G3588 Art-AFP ἐντολὰς (commandments) G1785 N-AFP τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS καὶ (and) G2532 Conj τὴν (the) G3588 Art-AFS πίστιν (faith) G4102 N-AFS Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) G2424 N-GMS

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And your quoted verse references above are lacking. I'm looking at two Greek Interlinears right now and both agree that those last two letters (οῦ) in the Greek for GOD θεοῦ and Jesus Ἰησοῦ, are the same as in your quoted Romans 3:22. And that means that both words were genitive in case and therefore indicative of possession which should be translated as "righteousness OF God" and "faith OF Jesus" as is correctly translated in the KJV.

KJV ROM 3:22 Even the righteousness OF God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

So when inaccurate translations say the "righteousness OF God" and then say by "faith IN Jesus" in that same Rom 3:22 verse, they are simply translating inconsistently. Something that often is done to protect their 'false doctrines'. But they do so in lieu of consistently obeying the laws of Greek Grammar for both words as KJV and all Greek Interlinears that I know of do. Which is really easy for anyone to check for themselves, if they're really seeking the TRUTH instead of just seeking to WIN an argument here.

It seems that your saying we are saved by Jesus’ faith and not ours so does that mean that we don’t need to have faith in Christ to be saved?

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If that's what it 'seems like I'm saying' then you don't 'seem to have ears to hear' what I'm saying IMO.

Hillsage said:

And your quoted verse references above are lacking. I'm looking at two Greek Interlinears right now and both agree that those last two letters (οῦ) in the Greek for GOD θεοῦ and Jesus Ἰησοῦ, are the same as in your quoted Romans 3:22. And that means that both words were genitive in case and therefore indicative of possession which should be translated as "righteousness OF God" and "faith OF Jesus" as is correctly translated in the KJV.

KJV ROM 3:22 Even the righteousness OF God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

So when inaccurate translations say the "righteousness OF God" and then say by "faith IN Jesus" in that same Rom 3:22 verse, they are simply translating inconsistently. Something that often is done to protect their 'false doctrines'. But they do so in lieu of consistently obeying the laws of Greek Grammar for both words as KJV and all Greek Interlinears that I know of do. Which is really easy for anyone to check for themselves, if they're really seeking the TRUTH instead of just seeking to WIN an argument here.


If that's what it 'seems like I'm saying' then you don't 'seem to have ears to hear' what I'm saying IMO.

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Thanks for sharing that information about in and of and the Greek usage. I agree that the correct translation should be of and not in but this still doesn’t change that a person can’t lose their salvation. Justification does not automatically result in salvation. John 15:1-10 is evidence that even those who are true disciples of Christ are capable of falling away. Romans 11:17-23 and Ephesians 4:17-32 on into Ephesians 5:1-6 are also indications that those whom God has grafted into His covenant can be broken off and saints who are faithful in Christ can grieve the Holy Spirit and receive God’s wrath resulting in losing their inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Paul also said in 2 Timothy 2:12

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice how Paul includes himself as being capable of denying Christ which will result in Christ denying him before The Father. I’m sure we can agree that Paul had a true faith and had been justified by Jesus Christ at the time he wrote this. The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. This doesn’t mean that afterwards there is nothing we can do to be counted as unrighteous by God. In order to receive eternal life we must abide in Christ and endure to the end. If we fall away we must repent in order to receuve eternal life otherwise we are not abiding in Christ.

The doctrine of eternal security teaches that those who are in Christ can never be cast away. John 15:2 says otherwise. It also teaches that true believers cannot fail to abide in Christ resulting in loss of salvation which ignores the implications in John 15:4-6 and 2 Timothy 2:12. This is why eternal security was never taught in the early church and wasn’t invented until the 16th century and why it has been rejected by every church that was established by the apostles.

Tragic to spend our lives in fear of losing salvation. Is the Christian life a slippery slope? Or a high-wire act over the chasm of Hell with the hungry flames licking at our feet? (anxiously awaiting one slip-up on our part) POOF! Gone in an instant.

Romans 8:14-16
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

BNR32FAN said:

Thanks for sharing that information about in and of and the Greek usage. I agree that the correct translation should be of and not in but this still doesn’t change that a person can’t lose their salvation. Justification does not automatically result in salvation.

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BNR, please note, I am very impressed with your 'acknowledging' acceptance of what I shared concerning the Greek. Most here won't give an iota of credit to anything anyone says, if they are in a 'disagreeable' doctrinal discussion. In those situations "IRON DOES NOT SHARPEN IRON" it just causes more sparks to fly. So kudos....even though we still hold a major disagree. You give me hope that you have a teachable spirit unlike most who have an unteachable religious spirit IMO. OK, back to the forge.

Yes it does, but justification salvation only applies to the spirit and not to the sanctification salvation of the soul or glorification salvation of the body.

1TI 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,

We too, are justified in our spirit when it is born again and 'it' is the "new creation" spoken of in scripture.

2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is IN Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

"he is" is not in the Greek in the above verse. There is only 'one' "A new creation" in your triune being (spirit, soul, body) with the new birth salvation of your spirit. When your spirit is born from above it becomes the spirit of Christ in you because you are "IN CHRIST" and are now "ONE SPIRIT" with the body of Christ.

1CO 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

I have a question for you. ARE YOU SAVED? If you are then why is your body going to die should the Lord tarry? Your soul is not saved, nor is your body saved. You are 'working out the salvation (of your soul) with fear and trembling'. You are doing so by engrafting into it the mind of Christ.

JAM 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

This verse was written (vs2) to "brethren" or CHRISTIANS, would you not agree? So were they saved nor? Were they "brethren" based upon their 'walk' or upon the rebirth of their spirit? SPIRIT determines born again relationship with God. SOUL determines fellowship to the degree of sanctification, but not relationship with God.

John 15:1-10 is evidence that even those who are true disciples of Christ are capable of falling away. Romans 11:17-23 and Ephesians 4:17-32 on into Ephesians 5:1-6 are also indications that those whom God has grafted into His covenant can be broken off and saints who are faithful in Christ can grieve the Holy Spirit and receive God’s wrath resulting in losing their inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Paul also said in 2 Timothy 2:12

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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I put everyone of these scriptures in the 'soul salvation' category and not the 'spirit salvation' category. As I said, I don't believe in OSAS for the soul, only for the spirit. And it is your spirit's salvation that determines going to heaven. Your soul only determines your rewards IN heaven. The more you work it out, the more victory you live in here on earth and the more rewards you receive in the hereafter. It makes no sense to work all you life for a complete loss at the end, when someone else can live like hell until the day they die, but have a death bed confession and go to heaven. That makes no sense at all.

Notice how Paul includes himself as being capable of denying Christ which will result in Christ denying him before The Father. I’m sure we can agree that Paul had a true faith and had been justified by Jesus Christ at the time he wrote this. The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. This doesn’t mean that afterwards there is nothing we can do to be counted as unrighteous by God. In order to receive eternal life we must abide in Christ and endure to the end. If we fall away we must repent in order to receuve eternal life otherwise we are not abiding in Christ.

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I disagree, if we fall away we must repent in order to receive God's life which is available for us in this age we are living in. That's why we don't like the mistranslating of the Greek word aionios into eternal. Bibles don't' say eternal in the more critical translations.

The doctrine of eternal security teaches that those who are in Christ can never be cast away. John 15:2 says otherwise. It also teaches that true believers cannot fail to abide in Christ resulting in loss of salvation which ignores the implications in John 15:4-6 and 2 Timothy 2:12. This is why eternal security was never taught in the early church and wasn’t invented until the 16th century and why it has been rejected by every church that was established by the apostles.

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You fail to perceive, as to just what salvation is lost. We are working out the salvation of our souls to be saved from this wicked generation and world that we live in.

ACT 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of (FROM)the Holy Spirit.......40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Hillsage said:

BNR, please note, I am very impressed with your 'acknowledging' acceptance of what I shared concerning the Greek. Most here won't give an iota of credit to anything anyone says, if they are in a 'disagreeable' doctrinal discussion. In those situations "IRON DOES NOT SHARPEN IRON" it just causes more sparks to fly. So kudos....even though we still hold a major disagree. You give me hope that you have a teachable spirit unlike most who have an unteachable religious spirit IMO. OK, back to the forge.

Yes it does, but justification salvation only applies to the spirit and not to the sanctification salvation of the soul or glorification salvation of the body.

1TI 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,

We too, are justified in our spirit when it is born again and 'it' is the "new creation" spoken of in scripture.

2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is IN Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

"he is" is not in the Greek in the above verse. There is only 'one' "A new creation" in your triune being (spirit, soul, body) with the new birth salvation of your spirit. When your spirit is born from above it becomes the spirit of Christ in you because you are "IN CHRIST" and are now "ONE SPIRIT" with the body of Christ.

1CO 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

I have a question for you. ARE YOU SAVED? If you are then why is your body going to die should the Lord tarry? Your soul is not saved, nor is your body saved. You are 'working out the salvation (of your soul) with fear and trembling'. You are doing so by engrafting into it the mind of Christ.

JAM 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

This verse was written (vs2) to "brethren" or CHRISTIANS, would you not agree? So were they saved nor? Were they "brethren" based upon their 'walk' or upon the rebirth of their spirit? SPIRIT determines born again relationship with God. SOUL determines fellowship to the degree of sanctification, but not relationship with God.


I put everyone of these scriptures in the 'soul salvation' category and not the 'spirit salvation' category. As I said, I don't believe in OSAS for the soul, only for the spirit. And it is your spirit's salvation that determines going to heaven. Your soul only determines your rewards IN heaven. The more you work it out, the more victory you live in here on earth and the more rewards you receive in the hereafter. It makes no sense to work all you life for a complete loss at the end, when someone else can live like hell until the day they die, but have a death bed confession and go to heaven. That makes no sense at all.


I disagree, if we fall away we must repent in order to receive God's life which is available for us in this age we are living in. That's why we don't like the mistranslating of the Greek word aionios into eternal. Bibles don't' say eternal in the more critical translations.


You fail to perceive, as to just what salvation is lost. We are working out the salvation of our souls to be saved from this wicked generation and world that we live in.

ACT 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of (FROM)the Holy Spirit.......40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

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Thank you for your kind words. This concept of salvation of spirit and soul on separate planes is very foreign to me. I have never heard of this before. I must admit I am skeptical because I don’t understand how the spirit can be saved if the soul is not. I don’t see any mention in the passages I provided of a separation of the spirit and soul. These passages refer to individuals as a whole.

BNR32FAN said:

Thank you for your kind words. This concept of salvation of spirit and soul on separate planes is very foreign to me. I have never heard of this before. I must admit I am skeptical because I don’t understand how the spirit can be saved if the soul is not. I don’t see any mention in the passages I provided of a separation of the spirit and soul. These passages refer to individuals as a whole.

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It was foreign to me too....in 1974. I'd gotten gloriously saved in '72' and thought I was saved until I ran into Armenian teaching. Then I listened to all the scriptures like you share and had my gloriously saved feeling descend a walk of fearing my Father throwing me into hell instead of a walk in love with my savior Jesus. A Jesus whom my loving Father sent to die in my place. I feared hell because I knew I still sinned....heck I still sin, but nothing like the day after I was born again. Now I even believe in;, and am pursuing the goal of walking in perfection and never sinning, in order to overcome the last enemy of mortal death to walk in immortality here and now until the day Jesus does return.

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality/aphtharsia, he will give eternal life;

0861 aphtharsia: incorruptibility; gen. unending existence; (fig.) genuineness

Or as YLT says;
ROM 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility/aphtharsia - life age-during;

And that theology freaks everyone out, and not just people who believe like you do....because "no one was perfect but Jesus"...so they say. So yes I'm a bull in the china shop with most of Christianity, which has fought for 2000 years over OSAS and Armenianism. But this is the only teaching I've ever heard which bridges the gap of both of those 1/2 right extremes IMO. I appreciate your honesty in admitting you too have never heard of separating the spirit and the soul. But even then, you have still left out 1/3 of 'YOU', your body. So, as I said earlier, if you are saved why will your body die if Jesus tarries? If Jesus isn't saving bodies then why is 'that' the only thing that died on Calvary? His spirit never died, He returned it to hands of the Father, from the cross and 'then' he breathed his last and died physically.

Hillsage said:

It was foreign to me too....in 1974. I'd gotten gloriously saved in '72' and thought I was saved until I ran into Armenian teaching. Then I listened to all the scriptures like you share and had my gloriously saved feeling descend a walk of fearing my Father throwing me into hell instead of a walk in love with my savior Jesus. A Jesus whom my loving Father sent to die in my place. I feared hell because I knew I still sinned....heck I still sin, but nothing like the day after I was born again. Now I even believe in;, and am pursuing the goal of walking in perfection and never sinning, in order to overcome the last enemy of mortal death to walk in immortality here and now until the day Jesus does return.

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality/aphtharsia, he will give eternal life;

0861 aphtharsia: incorruptibility; gen. unending existence; (fig.) genuineness

Or as YLT says;
ROM 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility/aphtharsia - life age-during;

And that theology freaks everyone out, and not just people who believe like you do....because "no one was perfect but Jesus"...so they say. So yes I'm a bull in the china shop with most of Christianity, which has fought for 2000 years over OSAS and Armenianism. But this is the only teaching I've ever heard which bridges the gap of both of those 1/2 right extremes IMO. I appreciate your honesty in admitting you too have never heard of separating the spirit and the soul. But even then, you have still left out 1/3 of 'YOU', your body. So, as I said earlier, if you are saved why will your body die if Jesus tarries? If Jesus isn't saving bodies then why is 'that' the only thing that died on Calvary? His spirit never died, He returned it to hands of the Father, from the cross and 'then' he breathed his last and died physically.

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Ok let’s examine John 15:1-10 as an example. Is this referring to loss of salvation for the spirit, the soul, or the body; and how do you determine which the loss of salvation is referring to?

BNR32FAN said:

Ok let’s examine John 15:1-10 as an example. Is this referring to loss of salvation for the spirit, the soul, or the body; and how do you determine which the loss of salvation is referring to?

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This is admittedly a difficult passage and you may have trouble following me, but here goes. You have to read the whole context and not just 10 verses. When you do I see that we are not talking about the salvation of the spirit because that wasn't even available until after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Jesus was talking to his Jewish disciples who could only pursue "age during life" salvation through following the law of Moses. This is the same 'God life that was available in the age' of the rich young man in Mark 10. As Jesus explained.

MAR 10:17 And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, 'Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'

MAR 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth." 21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have (in the future) treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

The works being done by the vines allegory in John 15/Mark 10 is the same as for the soul....they are working for treasure IN HEAVEN. And that comes after we follow Jesus from the cross which we look back to, but the rich young ruler would have to be looking forward to following Jesus after fulfilling the law as best he could.

I hope this helps.

So now answer my question you've avoided twice now. If you are saved why is you body going to die, if Jesus tarries?

Ricky M said:

Conversely, there is no bad deed you could ever do that would take salvation away. Since it hinges on belief and confession, bad deeds do not erase God's grace. (Not to say that bad deeds don't have their place, but that's yet another discussion).

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Whoever is trusting Jesus has eternal life.
WHoever is not trusting Jesus has not eternal life.

God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Will He revoke the gift of salvation? (nope)

Romans 11:28-29
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

In a certain quarter of London, one of the many evangelists employed for that purpose, had gone forth to preach to the people. When he had concluded an eloquent address, he was thus accosted by one of his hearers: Sir, "said the man, "may I ask you one or two questions?" "Surely," said the preacher. "Your have told us that God's love for us is very great and very strong." "Yes," "That He sent His Son on purpose to. save us, and that I may be saved this moment, if I will." "Yes," "But, that if I go away without an immediate acceptance of this offer, and if, a few minutes after I were to be by any accident killed on my way home, I should find myself in hell for ever and ever." "Yes." "Then," said the man, "if so, I don't want to have anything to do with a Being Whose love for me can change so completely in five minutes."

Source: Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter three

Hillsage said:

This is admittedly a difficult passage and you may have trouble following me, but here goes. You have to read the whole context and not just 10 verses. When you do I see that we are not talking about the salvation of the spirit because that wasn't even available until after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Jesus was talking to his Jewish disciples who could only pursue "age during life" salvation through following the law of Moses. This is the same 'God life that was available in the age' of the rich young man in Mark 10. As Jesus explained.

MAR 10:17 And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, 'Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'

MAR 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth." 21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have (in the future) treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

The works being done by the vines allegory in John 15/Mark 10 is the same as for the soul....they are working for treasure IN HEAVEN. And that comes after we follow Jesus from the cross which we look back to, but the rich young ruler would have to be looking forward to following Jesus after fulfilling the law as best he could.

I hope this helps.

So now answer my question you've avoided twice now. If you are saved why is you body going to die, if Jesus tarries?

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Salvation was available to those who died before Jesus was crucified. His righteousness was imputed on those whom had faith in God. God had declared them righteous before Jesus was crucified but their sins were paid for by Christ’s sacrifice.

Paul explains this is Romans 3 & 4

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? " ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: " BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. " BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, " FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU ") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, " SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Justification thru grace was also made available to those who had faith in God The Father before Jesus was sacrificed. “To whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus Our Lord from the dead (God The Father) He (Jesus) who was delivered over because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.”

Moses and Elijah appeared in “glory” before Jesus and His disciples. The word glory refers to a brightness as compared to the moon, sun, and stars; a majestic splendor. Moses and Elijah came down from heaven to visit with Jesus. This would not be possible unless their sins were paid for by Christ’s sacrifice before His sacrifice had occurred. Their righteousness was credited to them prior to Jesus’ sacrifice.

As for why our body must die I’m not sure exactly but it would make sense since God wants us to believe by faith. If everyone who believes in God never died then people would believe according to what they have seen and not according to what they haven’t seen. Not to mention there would be a huge overcrowding problem in the world if all believers never died. In the days of Noah God said that He would not endure man to live beyond 120 years. I think this is very interesting because Abraham lived to be 175 years old. Genesis 6:3 & Genesis 25:7. So evidently there are exceptions to this statement. Enoch and Elijah are believed to have been raptured to heaven without dying. I’ve often wondered if it was possible that they lived without sin but I haven’t researched this theory yet.

BNR32FAN said:

Salvation was available to those who died before Jesus was crucified. His righteousness was imputed on those whom had faith in God. God had declared them righteous before Jesus was crucified but their sins were paid for by Christ’s sacrifice.

Paul explains this is Romans 3 & 4

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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You aren't applying what I've already convinced you of.

YLT ROM 3:22 and the righteousness of God {is} through the faith OF Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, - for there is no difference,

“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? " ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: " BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. " BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, " FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU ") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, " SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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This "Justification" applies to those who are 'justified in spirit'. They were 'credited' with FUTURE imputed righteousness which was TO COME with the cross. And we 'get' the FUTURE imputed righteousness of the spirit of Christ in us with the salvation or rebirth of our spirit. But after our justified spirit is saved (OSAS) we still have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" when it comes to the saving of our soul. And we do that with IMPARTED righteousness which comes from following the leading of that holy spirit in us as opposed to following our "sinful flesh" nature.

Justification thru grace was also made available to those who had faith in God The Father before Jesus was sacrificed. “To whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus Our Lord from the dead (God The Father) He (Jesus) who was delivered over because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification.”

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Like it says, concerning this justification; "it WILL be credited" to those before the cross. And it is credited to us since the cross when we first believe. But what is received SINCE THE CROSS is a saved spirit which is in correct relationship with God. And it was the spirit of Elijah and Moses that appeared on the mount of transfiguration before the cross.

Moses and Elijah appeared in “glory” before Jesus and His disciples. The word glory refers to a brightness as compared to the moon, sun, and stars; a majestic splendor. Moses and Elijah came down from heaven to visit with Jesus. This would not be possible unless their sins were paid for by Christ’s sacrifice before His sacrifice had occurred. Their righteousness was credited to them prior to Jesus’ sacrifice.

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This is not scriptural. the word "glory" isn't even in the chapter. So I think that is an speculative religious opinion.

As for why our body must die I’m not sure exactly but it would make sense since God wants us to believe by faith. If everyone who believes in God never died then people would believe according to what they have seen and not according to what they haven’t seen. Not to mention there would be a huge overcrowding problem in the world if all believers never died. In the days of Noah God said that He would not endure man to live beyond 120 years. I think this is very interesting because Abraham lived to be 175 years old. Genesis 6:3 & Genesis 25:7. So evidently there are exceptions to this statement. Enoch and Elijah are believed to have been raptured to heaven without dying. I’ve often wondered if it was possible that they lived without sin but I haven’t researched this theory yet.

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James says "sin when it becomes mature causes death." There's documented cased of many living longer than 120. Scripture doesn't say that's all the longer we'll live. It says:

KJV GEN 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

RSV GEN 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

NAS GEN 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

GEN 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

As you can see, not even the translators can agree as to what Sspirit is even being talked about let alone what that Sspirit is doing. But if it quits contending and striving to rule in a man, then there's no telling how long it will still take before sin simply matures to kill him. But we're on thin ice here.

As for the 'rapture' I don't believe in it anymore. And as for Enoch and Elijah, neither of them went to heaven either. Hebrews chapter of faith includes Enoch in the list of those dying in the faith and Elijah wrote a letter to a king chronologically 20+ years after he was 'translated' like Phillip to another place on earth.

Hillsage said:

You aren't applying what I've already convinced you of.

YLT ROM 3:22 and the righteousness of God {is} through the faith OF Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, - for there is no difference,


This "Justification" applies to those who are 'justified in spirit'. They were 'credited' with FUTURE imputed righteousness which was TO COME with the cross. And we 'get' the FUTURE imputed righteousness of the spirit of Christ in us with the salvation or rebirth of our spirit. But after our justified spirit is saved (OSAS) we still have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" when it comes to the saving of our soul. And we do that with IMPARTED righteousness which comes from following the leading of that holy spirit in us as opposed to following our "sinful flesh" nature.


Like it says, concerning this justification; "it WILL be credited" to those before the cross. And it is credited to us since the cross when we first believe. But what is received SINCE THE CROSS is a saved spirit which is in correct relationship with God. And it was the spirit of Elijah and Moses that appeared on the mount of transfiguration before the cross.


This is not scriptural. the word "glory" isn't even in the chapter. So I think that is an speculative religious opinion.


James says "sin when it becomes mature causes death." There's documented cased of many living longer than 120. Scripture doesn't say that's all the longer we'll live. It says:

KJV GEN 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

RSV GEN 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

NAS GEN 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

GEN 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

As you can see, not even the translators can agree as to what Sspirit is even being talked about let alone what that Sspirit is doing. But if it quits contending and striving to rule in a man, then there's no telling how long it will still take before sin simply matures to kill him. But we're on thin ice here.

As for the 'rapture' I don't believe in it anymore. And as for Enoch and Elijah, neither of them went to heaven either. Hebrews chapter of faith includes Enoch in the list of those dying in the faith and Elijah wrote a letter to a king chronologically 20+ years after he was 'translated' like Phillip to another place on earth.

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I think you missed a few implications on when the sins of those who died before Jesus’ crucifiction. Notice Paul’s quote of David.

“" BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This clearly indicates that the sins of those who had faith in God The Father were already atoned for by Christ’s sacrifice before He was actually crucified.

As for the mention of Moses and Elijah’s splendor and glory you can find this in Luke 9:30-31.

BNR32FAN said:

I think you missed a few implications on when the sins of those who died before Jesus’ crucifiction. Notice Paul’s quote of David.

“" BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This clearly indicates that the sins of those who had faith in God The Father were already atoned for by Christ’s sacrifice before He was actually crucified.

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I think you missed an implication. There is temporal forgiveness of sins and their consequence here and now. And then there is ETERNAL forgiveness which came with the cross. TEMPORAL forgiveness doesn't get you into heaven, it only gets you saved from the temporal consequence of sins in this wicked age you're living in.

JOH 5:14 Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you."

MAT 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Please tell me you don't think this guy ever had eternal forgiveness for all his sins at this point. If he did, then Jesus never needed to go to the cross in the first place. That's just obvious IMO.

The ministration of Jesus as the son of man had the authority/power to forgive the temporal consequences of your sins. But the perfected son of God was needed for ETERNAL forgiveness. And that was on the cross. No eternal price had been paid until then.

As for the mention of Moses and Elijah’s splendor and glory you can find this in Luke 9:30-31.

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You can also find the mention of Moses and glory when his face lite up in 2 Cor;

2CO 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

But now, looking beyond where you are seeing you can also see what degree of glory Moses had; Moses didn't have the ministration of righteousness for eternal glory, or that which came with the cross and the righteousness of Christ. I hope you can believe that sins weren't ETERNALLY forgiven before the cross. They weren't, they were TEMPORALLY forgiven. That's why the Israelites had to offer the sacrifices year after year, according to Hebrews. Before the cross Moses never had his glorified spiritual body like Jesus manifested with AFTER THE CROSS. Moses and Jesus only manifested the glory of their mortal 'natural' physical bodies. There is a difference. You already quoted 'some' understanding of differing glories in verse 15:41. Now add to that understanding the following verse 'in context' with what I've shared.

1CO 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

Yes, there are differing 'glories' for differing 'vessels' as you noted. But the glory of the spiritual body will make the glory of the physical body appear as a "shadow".

HEB 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.

And no one here has the PERFECT spiritual body which is awaiting your presently born again PERFECT and OSAS spirit. A "SEALED" spirit salvation, which is now working out the salvation of your soul to determine the degree of glory which you will receive for your PERFECT and eternal spiritual body.

Hillsage said:

I think you missed an implication. There is temporal forgiveness of sins and their consequence here and now. And then there is ETERNAL forgiveness which came with the cross. TEMPORAL forgiveness doesn't get you into heaven, it only gets you saved from the temporal consequence of sins in this wicked age you're living in.

JOH 5:14 Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you."

MAT 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Please tell me you don't think this guy ever had eternal forgiveness for all his sins at this point. If he did, then Jesus never needed to go to the cross in the first place. That's just obvious IMO.

The ministration of Jesus as the son of man had the authority/power to forgive the temporal consequences of your sins. But the perfected son of God was needed for ETERNAL forgiveness. And that was on the cross. No eternal price had been paid until then.


You can also find the mention of Moses and glory when his face lite up in 2 Cor;

2CO 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

But now, looking beyond where you are seeing you can also see what degree of glory Moses had; Moses didn't have the ministration of righteousness for eternal glory, or that which came with the cross and the righteousness of Christ. I hope you can believe that sins weren't ETERNALLY forgiven before the cross. They weren't, they were TEMPORALLY forgiven. That's why the Israelites had to offer the sacrifices year after year, according to Hebrews. Before the cross Moses never had his glorified spiritual body like Jesus manifested with AFTER THE CROSS. Moses and Jesus only manifested the glory of their mortal 'natural' physical bodies. There is a difference. You already quoted 'some' understanding of differing glories in verse 15:41. Now add to that understanding the following verse 'in context' with what I've shared.

1CO 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

Yes, there are differing 'glories' for differing 'vessels' as you noted. But the glory of the spiritual body will make the glory of the physical body appear as a "shadow".

HEB 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.

And no one here has the PERFECT spiritual body which is awaiting your presently born again PERFECT and OSAS spirit. A "SEALED" spirit salvation, which is now working out the salvation of your soul to determine the degree of glory which you will receive for your PERFECT and eternal spiritual body.

Click to expand...

God being both omniscient and omnipresent is outside of time. He is in all time at any given moment in time. As you pointed out in Hebrews 10:1 a person cannot enter heaven without receiving Jesus’ atonement. Sin offerings will not fully cleanse a person so as to be able to enter heaven. I disagree that those who died before Christ’s crucifiction were not forgiven and were not allowed to enter heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Genesis 5:25 God took Enoch. 2 Kings 2:11 and Hebrews 11:5 Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. Either these two men never sinned or Jesus’ righteousness was imputed to them before He was crucified. The scriptures make no mention of a sin offering in Enoch’s time.

BNR32FAN said:

God being both omniscient and omnipresent is outside of time. He is in all time at any given moment in time. As you pointed out in Hebrews 10:1 a person cannot enter heaven without receiving Jesus’ atonement. Sin offerings will not fully cleanse a person so as to be able to enter heaven. I disagree that those who died before Christ’s crucifiction were not forgiven and were not allowed to enter heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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I don't see this dialogue going anywhere based upon you not understanding OSAS
for the spirit. You're offering no salvation protocol for the soul or body as I have. So I'm probably just going to leave you as is here, and go elsewhere.

Genesis 5:25 God took Enoch. 2 Kings 2:11 and Hebrews 11:5 Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. Either these two men never sinned or Jesus’ righteousness was imputed to them before He was crucified. The scriptures make no mention of a sin offering in Enoch’s time.

Click to expand...

I already explained that I disagree with your opinion on Enoch and Elijah. You never asked why, Now you just want to tell me why you believe what you do. I know why you believe how you do. I used to believe the same way, but now I have to reveal a greater depth of understanding than I 'had' concerning these scriptures.

King Jehoram received this letter from Elijah;

2CH 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Chronologically king Jehosophat was reigning when Elijah got caught up into the 'heaven/sky in Hebrew by the whirlwind/hurricaine in the Hebrew. But years later Jehoram recieved a letter from Elijah. Elijah no more went to "heaven" than did Phillip in Act's 8 when he was 'caught away' into the sky and dropped in Azotus.

As for Enoch, he is smack in the middle of all who DIED IN FAITH.

HEB 11:4 By faith Abel...:5 By faith Enoch was translated...:7 By faith Noah...:8 By faith Abraham...:13 These all died in faith,

GEN 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The phrase ” he was not“ is often used of death in the Old Testament. We read, for example in Jer. 31:15, “….A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not“. And the phrase is used in the same way in Job 7:21, “…..for now shall I sleep in the dust; but Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be“.

-Now let us consider the Greek word translated “see” in Heb. 11:5 in the phrase, ” that he should not see death”. That Greek word is “eidon”. Appendix 133 of the Companion Bible gives the following definition: “eidon= to see: implying not the mere act of looking, but the actual perception.….”. To make perfectly sure that we understand this definition, let us consider the Webster’s Dictionary definition of “perceive”. “Perceive: awareness of….”. If we are to take into due consideration the definition of the Greek word translated “see” we must understand this phrase to say that Enoch should not be aware of death. Obviously then, he had been not aware of his own death. This does not tell us that Enoch did not die, only that Enoch was not aware of his death when it happened. Much like a person who dies while under anesthesia during an operation is not aware of his death,
-now ready to consider each occurrence of the Greek word translated “translated” used in Heb. 11:5. That Greek word is “metatitheemi”. We must determine its meaning from how the Holy Spirit used it. The word is used six times.
Acts 7:15-16, “And Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers. And were carried over (Gr. “metatitheemi”) into Sychem, and laid in the sepulcher that Abraham bought for a sum of money….”. Note, these were dead bodies that were “carried over”.
-What is the basic concept of this word "metatitiheemi"? In my opinion, the basic concept of the word is one of changing. In Acts the location of the bodies were changed. In Galatians 1:6 their attitude towards Christ had changed. In Heb.7:12 the priesthood was changed, in Heb. 11:5 Enoch was being changed and in Jude 4 ungodly men had changed the grace of God.

Enoch’s change was from life to death. And he did not perceive his own death because he was taken in such a way that he was not allowed to be aware of it.
Enoch died like my mom, who died in the rocking chair where she prayed every morning and drank her cup of coffee. My sister found her when a neighbor called concerned that the front door hadn't opened yet that morning. Sis found her with one arm on the rocking chair's arm and the other hanging off. And her 'unpushed' First Alert necklace was hanging easily within reach. She was translated never seeing her 'last breath'. Same senario.

If you still want to cling to your opinion, all I can say is take it up with Jesus on judgment day;

JOH 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Hillsage said:

2CH 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Chronologically king Jehosophat was reigning when Elijah got caught up into the 'heaven/sky in Hebrew by the whirlwind/hurricaine in the Hebrew. But years later Jehoram recieved a letter from Elijah. Elijah no more went to "heaven" than did Phillip in Act's 8 when he was 'caught away' into the sky and dropped in Azotus.

As for Enoch, he is smack in the middle of all who DIED IN FAITH.

HEB 11:4 By faith Abel...:5 By faith Enoch was translated...:7 By faith Noah...:8 By faith Abraham...:13 These all died in faith,

GEN 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The phrase ” he was not“ is often used of death in the Old Testament. We read, for example in Jer. 31:15, “….A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not“. And the phrase is used in the same way in Job 7:21, “…..for now shall I sleep in the dust; but Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be“.

-Now let us consider the Greek word translated “see” in Heb. 11:5 in the phrase, ” that he should not see death”. That Greek word is “eidon”. Appendix 133 of the Companion Bible gives the following definition: “eidon= to see: implying not the mere act of looking, but the actual perception.….”. To make perfectly sure that we understand this definition, let us consider the Webster’s Dictionary definition of “perceive”. “Perceive: awareness of….”. If we are to take into due consideration the definition of the Greek word translated “see” we must understand this phrase to say that Enoch should not be aware of death. Obviously then, he had been not aware of his own death. This does not tell us that Enoch did not die, only that Enoch was not aware of his death when it happened. Much like a person who dies while under anesthesia during an operation is not aware of his death,
-now ready to consider each occurrence of the Greek word translated “translated” used in Heb. 11:5. That Greek word is “metatitheemi”. We must determine its meaning from how the Holy Spirit used it. The word is used six times.
Acts 7:15-16, “And Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers. And were carried over (Gr. “metatitheemi”) into Sychem, and laid in the sepulcher that Abraham bought for a sum of money….”. Note, these were dead bodies that were “carried over”.
-What is the basic concept of this word "metatitiheemi"? In my opinion, the basic concept of the word is one of changing. In Acts the location of the bodies were changed. In Galatians 1:6 their attitude towards Christ had changed. In Heb.7:12 the priesthood was changed, in Heb. 11:5 Enoch was being changed and in Jude 4 ungodly men had changed the grace of God.

Enoch’s change was from life to death. And he did not perceive his own death because he was taken in such a way that he was not allowed to be aware of it.
Enoch died like my mom, who died in the rocking chair where she prayed every morning and drank her cup of coffee. My sister found her when a neighbor called concerned that the front door hadn't opened yet that morning. Sis found her with one arm on the rocking chair's arm and the other hanging off. And her 'unpushed' First Alert necklace was hanging easily within reach. She was translated never seeing her 'last breath'. Same senario.

If you still want to cling to your opinion, all I can say is take it up with Jesus on judgment day;

JOH 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

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Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying that Enoch died?

I read your explanations, but it seems the whole point when comparing the few scriptures we have is that he did NOT die. Hebrews says he was "translated", Genesis says "he was no more". (NIV)

Where's the news? The scriptures are definitely making some sort of statement about his departure. To say that it only means "he died" seems unlikely. Am I missing something here?

Hillsage, ARMENIAN is a nationality, ARMINIAN is a theological position. My friend Gary was both - an Armenian Arminian.