What does all mean?

zoidar

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Because hell/ hades is an evil place/ state not of God's making. In v:20:14 it is cast into the lake of fire, so hell is obviously different in nature and quality to the lake of fire (the word is 'pure' in Greek, and theion (sulphur) is a purifying agent with the root 'the' signifying God's essence). The fire consumes and destroys, correct. But what does it destroy? Not people, because the nations emerge from it after being consumed in v.20:9, they're back in v.21:24-26 and now their friendly. So what happened to them in the fire? The chancre of indwelling sin was destroyed, they were part of the 'all things' that were being 'made new' in v.21:5. Halleluja, God's justice saves!



Well, you're reading the wrong something, because hell has been overcome by life in the lake of fire. And the punishments are always kolasis (corrective) never timoreisis (retributive), a clear distinction that's lost in the English and Latin translations. Also, the word 'aion' doesn't generally mean 'eternal' (eg Galatians 'this present evil age'), and is better translated as 'otherworldly' when used in reference to events in the world to come. 'Aidios' is the word for eternal in Greek.



I'll accept that Rev 22:6-12 are back in the then present. But not verses 14 through 17. He's still talking about inside/ outside the City vision and the invitation is to come in for the water of life. If anything, this is connecting the present to the Eschaton, where essentially the same rules apply. Come to Christ now, or God's going to have to refine, purge the dross and scrub you with fuller's soap. (I'm sure you get the references.)

Revelation is a tricky book, but Christ warned people of hell. It's better to lose your eye or your leg than be thrown into hell, he says. So it's something that is worse than losing your eyes, your arms and your legs, your whole body, your life here on Earth. In what other way could he describe its severity? Is it eternal, most early Church fathers believed that, exception for maybe Origen.
 
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Revelation is a tricky book, but Christ warned people of hell. It's better to lose your eye or your leg than be thrown into hell, he says. So it's something that is worse than losing your eyes, your arms and your legs, your whole body, your life here on Earth. In what other way could he describe its severity? Is it eternal, most early Church fathers believed that, exception for maybe Origen.

Agree, it's not to be trivialised, and this is a popular misconception of universalism. Also, I can appreciate that many damnationists are sincerely trying to show reverence for God's omnipotence/ sovereignty.

But Jesus isn't terrorising the disciples either, because he often continues by reassuring us that God won't do that eg every hair on your head is numbered, being salted with fire is good.

The point is that the power of heaven is manifested in a father's loving discipline, not a magistrate's harsh punishment. It's the character, the good name of God that's at stake.

I suggest there were more early fathers than just Origen who either held to it (in faith or in hope). Clement of Alexandria and Gregory of Nyssa are 2 clear examples. Universalism was kept a little quiet because they recognised it could be misconstrued as a licence to sin. And that remains an issue today. But I can't in good faith preach a gospel which has a threat of eternal punishment at its base.

Do you really believe there's sufficient scripture to support the most terrifying doctrine around? Or is it just a big stick we like to wield?
 
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zoidar

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Do you really believe there's sufficient scripture to support the most terrifying doctrine around? Or is it just a big stick we like to wield?

I believe there is. I believe in hell as eternal, ether as a physical place or as annihilation. I don't take the biblical descriptions of hell literally, but I understand enough to know that it's something to be avoided. The idea that comes closest to my belief is seperation from God. Exactly what that means no one knows.

I don't think hitting people in the head with a stick or the Bible is very helpful, but I am as honest as I can when questions about hell are asked. There was a thread about this here on CF. I try to tell people about why Christ is the meaning of life, why he is the truth. Christ is eternal life right now, not only in the afterlife. Through him we find true purpose. I do my best to give the right picture of our saviour, who is light and love.
 
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FineLinen

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How is hell gone in Revelation 20:9 when Revelation 20:11-15 talks of the very same judgement described in Matthew 25:31-46?

Revelation 20:11, a judgment is made from the great white throne. In Matthew 25:31, a judgement is made from a glorious throne. In both passages, we know Jesus is the one sitting on this throne (Matthew 25:31, John 5:22, 2 Corinthians 5:10). In Revelation 20:15, we see people thrown into the lake of fire. In Matthew 25:41, we see people thrown into the eternal fire. This is the same eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, also noted in Matthew 25:41. We see the devil sent to this same eternal fire in Revelation 20:10, where it is called the lake of fire and he will be tormented day and night, forever and ever (eternal, the place prepared for him and his angels).

If hell is, according to you, gone in Revelation 20:9, then where is it that the devil, the false prophet, and the beast are sent? Do we assume they come around to Salvation as well?

I find it clear in Scripture that hell is eternal, the lake of fire is hell, and those who go there will be tormented day and night, forever.

Revelation 20 concludes with the sentencing of the devil and the judgement of all, Revelation 21 opens with those who experience the eternal life (not eternal punishment), and Revelation 22 concludes with John in the present he was in during his time.

Revelation 21, judgement is over and a new heaven and new earth has come. Revelation 21:6, it is done. Revelation 21:7, the one who conquers (Romans 8:37) is with God. Revelation 21:8, describes those whose portion is the lake that burns with fire and sulfur (the same lake of fire and sulfur that the devil is sent to in Revelation 20:10, which once again is said to be forever and ever).

Revelation 22:6-17, this is talking about during the time John had received these visions and even extends to this very moment. John has received no new vision, the vision is complete. Wash your robes now, get ready, be ready, Jesus is coming soon.

If you come around to realize all of this, you will see that people are sent to this very same place the devil is sent. In judgement you will either go away into eternal punishment, or enter into eternal life (Matthew 25:46). The idea that all people, everyone, will come to Salvation is never presented in Scripture.

Good grief! You must take what is so "clear" to you and take a small boo at the references in Canon to eternal. You will find eternal is the koine aidios, and always and only is in reference to our great God and Saviour of the all.

He IS the Saviour of ALL mankind...
 
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Yahkov

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Good grief! You must take what is so "clear" to you and take a small boo at the references in Canon to eternal. You will find eternal is the koine aidios, and always and only is in reference to our great God and Saviour of the all.

He IS the Saviour of ALL mankind...

What does eternal punishment and eternal life mean in Matthew 25:46? They both use the same Greek word for eternal. Do we assume the eternal life we enter into is not really eternal?
 
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FineLinen

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What does eternal punishment and eternal life mean in Matthew 25:46? They both use the same Greek word for eternal. Do we assume the eternal life we enter into is not really eternal?

The word you are groping for is aionios, NOT aidios. The definition of aionios is clearly defined by the Apostle John as a calibre of life and punishment, NOT duration>>>>

This IS life aionios, that we may know You....
 
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Yahkov

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Do you really believe there's sufficient scripture to support the most terrifying doctrine around? Or is it just a big stick we like to wield?

Jesus has said, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

Hell is supposed to be terrifying. Jesus sure used this "big stick" a lot in His teachings.
 
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Yahkov

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The word you are groping for is aionios, NOT aidios. The definition of aionios is clearly defined by the Apostle John as a calibre of life and punishment, NOT duration>>>>

This IS life aionios, that we may know You....

The word I am groping for? This reply is a bunch of gibberish, you'll have to repost something more "tangible".
 
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Yahkov

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So pretty much hell is not eternal, eternal life is not eternal, you can be saved even in hell, sin still resides in new heaven and new earth, redemption is still needed in new heaven and new earth, people are allowed to be filthy and vile in new heaven and new earth, and there is not sufficient Scripture to say otherwise. The church has had it all wrong for 2,000 years.
 
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FineLinen

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Hell is supposed to be terrifying. Jesus sure used this "big stick" a lot in His teachings.

The Lord Jesus Christ only mentioned about each sparrow that falls one time. Not one single sparrow falls who is NOT in our Father's care!

The lost and broken children of Adam1, however, the vast segments of them are not in His constant care?

Every sparrow, every broken wreck IN His constant care!
 
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FineLinen

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The word I am groping for? This reply is a bunch of gibberish, you'll have to repost something more "tangible".

Neither aionios zoe or aionios kolasis is gibberish!

What part of St. Johns definition of aionios is escaping you?

"This IS life aionios, that we may know You...."
 
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Yahkov

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Neither aionios zoe or aionios kolasis is gibberish!

What part of St. Johns definition of aionios is escaping you?

"This IS life aionios, that we may know You...."

Is eternal (aionios) life in Christ unending?
 
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Yahkov

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The Lord Jesus Christ only mentioned about each sparrow that falls one time. Not one single sparrow falls who is NOT in our Father's care!

The lost and broken children of Adam1, however, the vast segments of them are not in His constant care?

Every sparrow, every broken wreck IN His constant care!

Jesus taught way more than sparrows falling. Not everyone is of His flock. The sparrow God takes care of. Right. Egypt God sent plagues, killed their firstborn, during the conquest numerous people serving foreign gods were slaughtered by God's command, we can easily keep going. To which of these would you like to compare to the sparrow?
 
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FineLinen

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So what do YOU think Finelinen? William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich are not here. Are talking about all 5600+ of ALL in the word? Seems this thread went off track right from the start

They are indeed not here, nor is Dr. Vine or Dr. R. Young and those who clearly define pas as the radical all.
 
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“Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.”

“Takes away”= airo=


To take upon one’s self/ to bear.

To bear away what has been raised/ carry off.

To move from its place.

To take off or away what is attached to anything.

To remove. To carry off or away with one.

To appropriate what is taken.

To take away from another what is his or what is committed to him/ to take by force.

plan b=

There is no plan b!

e0953c9240d7685ed469101afabeaf5e07213b0d.jpeg


The inhabitants of the world:

θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις

The inhabitants of the earth, mankind, the human race.
 
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FineLinen

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All does not always mean all?

1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some
 
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Saint Steven

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And more than this, we are altogether apt to forget another vital point, to forget whose the loss is, if any one soul perishes? it is the man's own loss, says our popular creed. But is this all? No, a thousand times no. It is God's loss: it is the Father Who loses His child. The straying sheep of the parable is the Great Shepherd's loss: the missing coin is the Owner's loss. In this very fact lies the pledge that He will seek on and on till He find it. For only think of the value He sets on each soul. He has stamped each in His own image: has conferred on each a share of His own immortality - of Himself: do but realize these things; put them into plain words till you come thoroughly to believe them; and you must see how impossible it becomes to credit that unworthy theology, which tells you that such a Father can ever permit the work of His own fingers, His own offspring, to perish finally.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter three

Luke 15:1-2
Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
 
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Good grief! You must take what is so "clear" to you and take a small boo at the references in Canon to eternal. You will find eternal is the koine aidios, and always and only is in reference to our great God and Saviour of the all.

He IS the Saviour of ALL mankind...
THE SHEPHERD SEEKS THE SHEEP

In Luke 15:4 we read, "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness and go after that which is lost UNTIL HE FIND IT?" In this passage we find that at the end of the day, the shepherd finds that he is just one little sheep short of completeness. There is only one outside - so why bother to go after that one, for perhaps that one is one of the rebellious ones anyway and will not choose to come back!

But the Shepherd we are dealing with in this story is not an ordinary shepherd. This is the Great and Good Shepherd of the sheep and nothing will stop Him or prevent Him from finding that last sheep. This Shepherd will not be content with even an extraordinary effort to find the sheep and then give up, feeling that He has done His duty. Neither does He "call" the sheep, and then wait to see if the sheep decides to come, and if not, just leave him there in his lost condition to die. This Shepherd searches UNTIL HE FINDS. And the FINDING of this Shepherd is not only the locating of the sheep, but it also includes the bringing back into the fold of that sheep.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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This Shepherd searches UNTIL HE FINDS. And the FINDING of this Shepherd is not only the locating of the sheep, but it also includes the bringing back into the fold of that sheep.

Hold on, doesn't the shepherd say, 'That evil unrepentant sheep can fall of a cliff, into the flames and I'll get some bbq'd lamb chops'..?
 
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