What if we melded Evolution and Creation, in some way? That in the beginning, light set out to give

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,372
Frozen North
✟336,823.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
try playing scabble relying on randomly pulling letters out of the bag to make words. To play the game intelligence has to be used.
Randomness does not make order.

Creation even a fallen creation displays increadible levels of order and complexity.
That only comes from intelligent design by a perfect creator God.

I'm talking about your claim that God saw his creation was good and therefore this means it was perfect and that randomness was not involved in its creation.

What is your basis for that?

(And for the record, order can come from randomness as defined as unpredictability, but that is a whole 'nother discussion.)
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

Leading a blameless life
Jul 14, 2015
12,340
7,679
51
✟314,979.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Randomness does not make order.
It does when you include selection. Which is what happens on species as they change over generations.

Randomness plus selection drives the engine of evolution.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Only shopworn to those who do not and will not accept those arguments.

As for theologians believing in evolution only those in the last century have done that.
There was hardly an opportunity for theologians to consider evolution much before that. But consider this passage from St. Thomas Aquinas:

"Divine providence imposes necessity upon some things; not upon all, as some formerly believed. For to providence it belongs to order things towards an end. Now after the divine goodness, which is an extrinsic end to all things, the principal good in things themselves is the perfection of the universe; which would not be, were not all grades of being found in things. Whence it pertains to divine providence to produce every grade of being. And thus it has prepared for some things necessary causes, so that they happen of necessity; for others contingent causes, that they may happen by contingency, according to the nature of their proximate causes."

--St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae​
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
Some people win the lottery of Evolution, because they embrace chance,, when for a moment God smiles on them regardless.

Other people lose the lottery of Evolution, and find a way to live regardless, and for a moment, start to learn how God smiles.
 
Upvote 0

loveofourlord

Newbie
Feb 15, 2014
8,125
4,529
✟270,357.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
try playing scabble relying on randomly pulling letters out of the bag to make words. To play the game intelligence has to be used.
Randomness does not make order.

Creation even a fallen creation displays increadible levels of order and complexity.
That only comes from intelligent design by a perfect creator God.

as others have said, evolution isn't random, mutations are, but natural selections/sexual selection and other simular things don't create randomness, they 'direct' the randomness into a direction. Mutations create the variety and diversity in a species, the selections then determine what is more likly to progress forward.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
People of faith who try and "meld" evolution and creation are scared of man, scared of science and have taken their eyes off God. Man says "I have prooved" like a puffed-up chameleon and people turn in wonder and awe towards the 'knowledge' because they have 'proof'. Then they turn back to the Bible and reinterpret it to meet the newly found 'wisdom'.

1 Corinthians 1: 19-20
19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
 
Upvote 0

loveofourlord

Newbie
Feb 15, 2014
8,125
4,529
✟270,357.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
People of faith who try and "meld" evolution and creation are scared of man, scared of science and have taken their eyes off God. Man says "I have prooved" like a puffed-up chameleon and people turn in wonder and awe towards the 'knowledge' because they have 'proof'. Then they turn back to the Bible and reinterpret it to meet the newly found 'wisdom'.

1 Corinthians 1: 19-20
19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

And you could easily point to those that deny evolution see themselves above god, and think they are so perfect and without mistakes that they can't possibly be wrong about gods creation, beucase THEY know the absolute truth about reality.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And you could easily point to those that deny evolution see themselves above god, and think they are so perfect and without mistakes that they can't possibly be wrong about gods creation, beucase THEY know the absolute truth about reality.

How on earth do you jump from not believing in evolution to people saying they are above God? Nobody is perfect except Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

loveofourlord

Newbie
Feb 15, 2014
8,125
4,529
✟270,357.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
How on earth do you jump from not believing in evolution to people saying they are above God? Nobody is perfect except Jesus.

You are doing just that when you say things along the line of, "Evolution is false because it contradicts my interpetation of the bible." your saying you know for a fact what is true in the bible, and rejects what god has left in nature. I don't reject literal bible because I scared of the bible or anything, I reject it because it doesn't comport with reality that I see. The evidence is with evolution, so either your right and the bible must be taken litearlly and therefore is false, or your interpetation is wrong, there is no third option as far as me and many others see. I rely on what is in nature, not what I think nature should be.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are doing just that when you say things along the line of, "Evolution is false because it contradicts my interpetation of the bible." your saying you know for a fact what is true in the bible, and rejects what god has left in nature. I don't reject literal bible because I scared of the bible or anything, I reject it because it doesn't comport with reality that I see. The evidence is with evolution, so either your right and the bible must be taken litearlly and therefore is false, or your interpetation is wrong, there is no third option as far as me and many others see. I rely on what is in nature, not what I think nature should be.

God is the one who said he created in 6 days. Maybe you need to go read the Bible again.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

I don't have to say a thing, God is the one saying it. In fact, I could say nothing but just paste Bible verses here.

Evolution is a man-made theory to explain how life came to be without God. Evolution claims that a one-cell creature gradually evolved into swimming creatures, that came up onto the land and became air-breathing animals. That one of those animals turned into some ancestor of man and finally after millions of years of death and struggle mankind came into being. It goes against everything that Genesis stands for, as well as many New Testament verses.

Nowhere in the Bible does God mention evolution.

The Bible clearly states that there was no death before sin. The sin committed by Adam is what brought in death. A bit different to evolutions take of millions of years of death before mankind.

Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned—

The other option is to not look upon the evidence through the lens of evolution but from what God told us.
An evolutionist points to similar DNA between animals and cites that as proof of common ancestry and evolution. Why is that a proof of evolution? Who says it's a proof of evolution? They do. I challenge that notion.
We can all agree that there are many similarities between animals and much-shared DNA. That point is the fact, what comes after that is opinion on it.

Why can't similarities in DNA be because the same creator made us all out of the same materials? Why wouldn't there be similarities, in fact I would be surprised if there weren't any. If you want to know how do I know it was the same materials, well that's in Genesis 2.
And
7 then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.
Then in
18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.” 19 So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

The evidence didn't change, the fact of similar DNA didn't change. The only thing that changed was the opinion on why it is similar.

There is a third option, some people not wanting to believe in the chance random process of evolution and also not wanting the God of the Bible have turned to outer space for their answers. They believe the earth was seeded by aliens. This of course beggars the question of who made the aliens, but I guess that doesn't bother them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Evolution is a man-made theory to explain how life came to be without God.
Evolution is a man-made theory about how life came to be. It does not assert "without God." The theory of evolution says nothing about the existence of God one way or another. What you are trying to do is turn your defense of a literal interpretation of Genesis into a cosmic struggle between theism and atheism, but it won't work.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Evolution may not call itself a theory without God, but God is not a part of it and it stands by itself without God. It's based on naturalism and materialism. That matter did its own creating.

Millions of years of death to get to an evolved mankind directly conflicts with scripture that says God created in 6 days.
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Genesis 1
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Matthew 19:4
4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female.

Scripture teaches that Jesus was the second Adam and that there was no death before Adam's sin.
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

1 Corinthians
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Even if you try and put God into evolution it still conflicts with scripture.
Scripture interprets Scripture is a well-known phrase and for good reason. When trying to examine one passage we must look to what the whole Bible says about that topic. Creation, no death before sin, death being the enemy that Christ came to defeat is throughout the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Evolution may not call itself a theory without God, but God is not a part of it and it stands by itself without God. It's based on naturalism and materialism. That matter did its own creating.
Nothing is created with out God, not even if it appears to be created by naturalistic forces.
Even if you try and put God into evolution it still conflicts with scripture.
Scripture interprets Scripture is a well-known phrase and for good reason. When trying to examine one passage we must look to what the whole Bible says about that topic. Creation, no death before sin, death being the enemy that Christ came to defeat is throughout the Bible.
Just with your interpretation of it. Yes, I know, you have an internally self-consistent theology complete with apologetics, but that does not mean it is normative for other Christians or necessary for salvation.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bungle_Bear
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,678
68
Tolworth
✟369,679.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'm talking about your claim that God saw his creation was good and therefore this means it was perfect and that randomness was not involved in its creation.

What is your basis for that?

(And for the record, order can come from randomness as defined as unpredictability, but that is a whole 'nother discussion.)

God by definition is perfect so if God declares that some thing id 'good' it follows that it is good.
It is splitting hairs to say good does not equal perfection.
 
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,678
68
Tolworth
✟369,679.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It does when you include selection. Which is what happens on species as they change over generations.

Randomness plus selection drives the engine of evolution.

Now if you were talking about chaos theory I would believe you, but your statement is pure nonsence.

Randomness plus choice equal order.
If there is choice where is the randomness.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,678
68
Tolworth
✟369,679.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There was hardly an opportunity for theologians to consider evolution much before that. But consider this passage from St. Thomas Aquinas:

"Divine providence imposes necessity upon some things; not upon all, as some formerly believed. For to providence it belongs to order things towards an end. Now after the divine goodness, which is an extrinsic end to all things, the principal good in things themselves is the perfection of the universe; which would not be, were not all grades of being found in things. Whence it pertains to divine providence to produce every grade of being. And thus it has prepared for some things necessary causes, so that they happen of necessity; for others contingent causes, that they may happen by contingency, according to the nature of their proximate causes."

--St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae​
That can be understood to say God created everything and that he included the provision for change.

Do I need to tell you that change does not equal evolution. ( if by evolution it is meant change from one type of creature into another.)
 
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,678
68
Tolworth
✟369,679.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
as others have said, evolution isn't random, mutations are, but natural selections/sexual selection and other simular things don't create randomness, they 'direct' the randomness into a direction. Mutations create the variety and diversity in a species, the selections then determine what is more likly to progress forward.

Interesting could you please explain for me how the randomness of selection or even of mutations is directed?
Is there some intelligence controlling this?
or scientific evidence that substanciate this?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟268,799.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
God is the one who said he created in 6 days. Maybe you need to go read the Bible again.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

I don't have to say a thing, God is the one saying it. In fact, I could say nothing but just paste Bible verses here.

God wrote Genesis? Did he translate too, or was that one of these "men" who can't be trusted?
 
Upvote 0