The Omni's

Steven Beck · Nov 7, 2019

Over in the Election threads people talk about God's omniscience that He knows all and then they take this that since He knows all he must determine all which I think is nonsense.

Anyways I want to talk about omniscience and this little exchange in Genesis.

Gen 18:16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way.
Gen 18:17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,
Gen 18:21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.

Many people claim that these 3 are Jesus + two angels and many people claim, and I am one of those, that this is the Father , Son and Holy Spirit. But again this is not the reason for the OP. The reason is Verses 20 & 21.

Now before anyone gets their knickers in a know I fully acknowledge God's omniscience since there would be no prophecy without it. However what I am suggesting is that His omniscience is not what we think it is. Why would God have to come and check out Sodom for Himself. He says that an 'outcry came to Him'.

Thoughts?

Sanoy · Nov 7, 2019

This would be Jesus. Both the father and the son are called Yahweh (Genesis 19:24). Notice one Yahweh is above Sodom, and he is acting from the other Yahweh in heaven. There are things that the Father knows that the Son does not. (Matthew 24:36.) The important thing to note here is that Jesus can know this thing, and so he does. Nothing is outside His reach and authority to know...with the exception of what we find in Matthew 24:36.

tdidymas · Nov 7, 2019

Steven Beck said:
Over in the Election threads people talk about God's omniscience that He knows all and then they take this that since He knows all he must determine all which I think is nonsense.

Anyways I want to talk about omniscience and this little exchange in Genesis.

Gen 18:16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way.
Gen 18:17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,
Gen 18:21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.

Many people claim that these 3 are Jesus + two angels and many people claim, and I am one of those, that this is the Father , Son and Holy Spirit. But again this is not the reason for the OP. The reason is Verses 20 & 21.

Now before anyone gets their knickers in a know I fully acknowledge God's omniscience since there would be no prophecy without it. However what I am suggesting is that His omniscience is not what we think it is. Why would God have to come and check out Sodom for Himself. He says that an 'outcry came to Him'.

Thoughts?

It's called "accommodation." It means that God is acting human-like in angelic form so that man can relate to him, since man is not omniscient. As far as omniscience, Heb 4:13 says, "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do." It says "all things," so therefore the Lord already knew they had "done altogether according to the outcry."

So then, accommodation is the idea to reconcile Gen. 18:21 with Heb. 4:13. God sent angels to Sodom as a test, for the Sodomites to prove they were totally corrupt. That is, God showing the Sodomites and Lot what God already knew. In this way, the just judgment on Sodom was evident to all.
TD

sawdust · Nov 7, 2019

Steven Beck said:
Over in the Election threads people talk about God's omniscience that He knows all and then they take this that since He knows all he must determine all which I think is nonsense.

Anyways I want to talk about omniscience and this little exchange in Genesis.

Gen 18:16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way.
Gen 18:17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,
Gen 18:21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.

Many people claim that these 3 are Jesus + two angels and many people claim, and I am one of those, that this is the Father , Son and Holy Spirit. But again this is not the reason for the OP. The reason is Verses 20 & 21.

Now before anyone gets their knickers in a know I fully acknowledge God's omniscience since there would be no prophecy without it. However what I am suggesting is that His omniscience is not what we think it is. Why would God have to come and check out Sodom for Himself. He says that an 'outcry came to Him'.

Thoughts?

The Son has always been fully God and fully man. Sometimes he speaks from His Deity and sometimes He speaks from His humanity. His humanity is not omniscient which is why He can say he doesn't know.

If God was not omniscient it would mean more than a lack of prophecy, there would be no absolute righteousness. His omniscience is also why righteousness (for us) only comes through faith in Him.

Steven Beck · Nov 7, 2019

Sanoy said:
This would be Jesus. Both the father and the son are called Yahweh (Genesis 19:24). Notice one Yahweh is above Sodom, and he is acting from the other Yahweh in heaven. There are things that the Father knows that the Son does not. (Matthew 24:36.) The important thing to note here is that Jesus can know this thing, and so he does. Nothing is outside His reach and authority to know...with the exception of what we find in Matthew 24:36.

The LORD is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I already said in the OP that those 3 were the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in human form. By Gen 19:24 they had returned to heaven. So sorry I find your answer unsatisfactory. Why did the LORD (Gen 18:1) appear in human form to find out if the reports from Sodom were true?

Steven Beck · Nov 7, 2019

tdidymas said:
It's called "accommodation." It means that God is acting human-like in angelic form so that man can relate to him, since man is not omniscient. As far as omniscience, Heb 4:13 says, "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do." It says "all things," so therefore the Lord already knew they had "done altogether according to the outcry."

So then, accommodation is the idea to reconcile Gen. 18:21 with Heb. 4:13. God sent angels to Sodom as a test, for the Sodomites to prove they were totally corrupt. That is, God showing the Sodomites and Lot what God already knew. In this way, the just judgment on Sodom was evident to all.
TD

'accommodation'? Really do people (theologians not your) make this stuff up? Only Abraham, Sarah and the servants saw the LORD not the people of Sodom or Lot. The two angels were there only to rescue Lot and his family. By the time the two angels arrived the LORD had already decided Sodom (and 4 other cities) were to go. So sorry unsatisfactory. According to man's understanding of omniscience the LORD had no need to come to earth to check out the reports.

Steven Beck · Nov 7, 2019

sawdust said:
The Son has always been fully God and fully man. Sometimes he speaks from His Deity and sometimes He speaks from His humanity. His humanity is not omniscient which is why He can say he doesn't know.

If God was not omniscient it would mean more than a lack of prophecy, there would be no absolute righteousness. His omniscience is also why righteousness (for us) only comes through faith in Him.

Well yeah but that was not the question.

sawdust · Nov 7, 2019

Steven Beck said:
Well yeah but that was not the question.

You didn't ask any specific question, you asked for thoughts. I gave you my thoughts the implication being omniscience doesn't have to be any thing other than how we commonly understand it if we first understand that the verses you quoted is the Lord speaking from His humanity which is not omniscient.

tdidymas · Nov 7, 2019

Steven Beck said:
'accommodation'? Really do people (theologians not your) make this stuff up? Only Abraham, Sarah and the servants saw the LORD not the people of Sodom or Lot. The two angels were there only to rescue Lot and his family. By the time the two angels arrived the LORD had already decided Sodom (and 4 other cities) were to go. So sorry unsatisfactory. According to man's understanding of omniscience the LORD had no need to come to earth to check out the reports.

Sorry you missed the point. If God were to destroy the cities without going through the process, then we wouldn't have seen Abraham's example of respect, honor, faith, prayer, etc. in addition to Lot's righteous reaction (in the midst of his immaturity). All that was for our example, to see what's right and follow it, and what's wrong and not follow it. Therefore, God accommodates us. Otherwise, if you are an Open Theist who doesn't believe that God actually does know everything, then you have to disregard Heb. 4:13 in order to justify the idea that God needed to go check out Sodom.
TD

Steven Beck · Nov 8, 2019

tdidymas said:
Sorry you missed the point. If God were to destroy the cities without going through the process, then we wouldn't have seen Abraham's example of respect, honor, faith, prayer, etc. in addition to Lot's righteous reaction (in the midst of his immaturity). All that was for our example, to see what's right and follow it, and what's wrong and not follow it. Therefore, God accommodates us. Otherwise, if you are an Open Theist who doesn't believe that God actually does know everything, then you have to disregard Heb. 4:13 in order to justify the idea that God needed to go check out Sodom.
TD

No I said in the OP that God is omniscient but this 'accommodation' stuff seems to be a good story without any meat & veg. Hey just an observation from my angle. My angle is that God's omniscience is not what we think it is.

sawdust · Nov 8, 2019

So basically you're saying that omniscience isn't omniscience. You want to change the meaning of the word to accommodate your theory?

Sanoy · Nov 8, 2019

Steven Beck said:
The LORD is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I already said in the OP that those 3 were the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in human form. By Gen 19:24 they had returned to heaven. So sorry I find your answer unsatisfactory. Why did the LORD (Gen 18:1) appear in human form to find out if the reports from Sodom were true?

Gen 19:24 grammatically requires two powers called Yahweh because one has the mark of the accusative on it. But I can already tell by your smug reply that it will not be worth my time talking to you further.

tdidymas · Nov 8, 2019

Steven Beck said:
No I said in the OP that God is omniscient but this 'accommodation' stuff seems to be a good story without any meat & veg. Hey just an observation from my angle. My angle is that God's omniscience is not what we think it is.

Ok, so it's not what you think it is. But if you claim that the orthodox doctrine that God knows everything in every detail is wrong, you have the burden of proof, which you haven't done. All I see is your conclusion based on a single Bible passage, and that doesn't cut the mustard. The open theists use the same passage and similar ones as a basis of their idea that God doesn't know everything and doesn't know the future (although He is a very good guesser). IMO they have a very dim view of God's omniscience, and one that is contrary to Heb. 4:13 among others.
TD

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