What would you lose if Christianity were not true?

holo

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If God does not exist I agree, and that is what I tried to convey when I spoke about delusion. The illusion you speak of never ended, it just changed chapters. This new chapter may matter to you, but it is not different in nature from the previous chapter. All of that book, which we may call your mental state, is merely the product of the indifference of evolution. We are all the slaves of our intuitions which toss our thoughts and beliefs like a cork floating along the ocean. You merely described a change in scenery, rather than anything fundamentally different.
Well, yes. Corks in the ocean is a great picture. It reminds me of an Alan Watts quote: "You are something the whole universe is doing, in the same way a wave is something the whole ocean is doing." Losing faith in God has allowed me to see the universe and myself in a whole new light - we are indeed one. I wasn't "put here" by something external to the universe or our reality, instead I am a product of it, as much a part of it as you, my rabbits, black holes, oceans and flowers. A slave? Yes, in a sense - I didn't choose to exist, nobody else chose that I exist. Yet here I am, and I think it's absolutely... I want to say miraculous.

But I realize don't have to exclude God to feel like one with the universe and so forth. But I don't think I could've gotten to see reality in this way unless I'd lost my Christian faith. Maybe I'll believe again some day, but with a pretty different concept of God (even as a believer, I was very aware that any human's idea of God would by definition be limited).
 
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Sanoy

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Well, yes. Corks in the ocean is a great picture. It reminds me of an Alan Watts quote: "You are something the whole universe is doing, in the same way a wave is something the whole ocean is doing." Losing faith in God has allowed me to see the universe and myself in a whole new light - we are indeed one. I wasn't "put here" by something external to the universe or our reality, instead I am a product of it, as much a part of it as you, my rabbits, black holes, oceans and flowers. A slave? Yes, in a sense - I didn't choose to exist, nobody else chose that I exist. Yet here I am, and I think it's absolutely... I want to say miraculous.

But I realize don't have to exclude God to feel like one with the universe and so forth. But I don't think I could've gotten to see reality in this way unless I'd lost my Christian faith. Maybe I'll believe again some day, but with a pretty different concept of God (even as a believer, I was very aware that any human's idea of God would by definition be limited).
Good, I'm glad we found a point of commonality to speak on. It's not that we lose our lives, but that we are left to perpetual floating with no land in sight. Even the belief that we are all one is just a wave tossing that cork about. After it crests you may believe something else entirely and embark on a different chapter. That chapter may be worse, it may be better. It might even toss you back to your former "delusion" of Christianity, with strong thoughts against oneness. Until the day we sink, we are at the mercy of the ocean waves, with no oar or land to steer toward. A creator is the only way we drift ashore.
 
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Halbhh

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It was an illusion,
Is now, rather, present tense.

It can help some, that were in bad churches, to find out what Christ said more accurately and fully, which can be so very different from the kinds of things they saw and heard and experienced in their church of origin.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Not sure what you're saying here, could you elaborate a little?
Essentially, I'm saying along with Pascal that it is a normal thing for a skeptic to admit that they don't "see the light" after having thoroughly, carefully, and pain-stakingly searched with deeply invested care for an answer to their doubts about God and Christ and a Life after one's demise in this world.

However, for some ardent atheist to come along and reach a point where he or she basically eschews the whole spiritual journey along with the whole of the existential question with but a non-chalant hand-wave and to instead aver that the "odd ones" around him are those who are pained by the possibility that there may be no God and no further existence beyond life, such an atheistic person would be and is rather a strange thing to encounter.

More specifically, Pascal will say that, no, it is they---the supercilious skeptics---who express some level of abnormal psychological state rather than it being either the bona-fide doubting Seeker or the Christian who has 'found' her faith. (see Pascal's writings #194 and #195)
 
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holo

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Good, I'm glad we found a point of commonality to speak on. It's not that we lose our lives, but that we are left to perpetual floating with no land in sight. Even the belief that we are all one is just a wave tossing that cork about. After it crests you may believe something else entirely and embark on a different chapter. That chapter may be worse, it may be better. It might even toss you back to your former "delusion" of Christianity, with strong thoughts against oneness. Until the day we sink, we are at the mercy of the ocean waves, with no oar or land to steer toward. A creator is the only way we drift ashore.
Well, this assumes that floating in the sea is a bad thing and that drifting ashore is a good thing. I don't assume that anymore, so all the things you say here don't bother me. Actually I think it's kind of beautiful. As the saying goes, "Relax. Nothing is under control." :)

But I should mention that this way of looking at things, this peace, didn't come to me just because I lost my Christian faith. It's something that's been growing on me since I began meditating and reading a little about Buddhism (and a little stoicism). Ironically, letting go of that incessant search for meaning allowed me to find an abundance of meaning in the here and now.
 
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Sanoy

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Well, this assumes that floating in the sea is a bad thing and that drifting ashore is a good thing. I don't assume that anymore, so all the things you say here don't bother me. Actually I think it's kind of beautiful. As the saying goes, "Relax. Nothing is under control." :)

But I should mention that this way of looking at things, this peace, didn't come to me just because I lost my Christian faith. It's something that's been growing on me since I began meditating and reading a little about Buddhism (and a little stoicism). Ironically, letting go of that incessant search for meaning allowed me to find and abundance of meaning in the here and now.
Floating in the sea isn't a bad thing, anymore than it is a good thing. There are not good or bad things, only delusions about what is good or what is bad that is the mere result of the tossing sea.

Nothing has been growing in you as there is no height to reach. The progress you feel is merely a delusion of the sea. You aren't going anywhere as there is no where to be. You merely are this now, and you could just as easily return by the same tossing sea. Can one wave say to the other wave "I am better"?
 
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holo

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Floating in the sea isn't a bad thing, anymore than it is a good thing. There are not good or bad things, only delusions about what is good or what is bad that is the mere result of the tossing sea.

Nothing has been growing in you as there is no height to reach. The progress you feel is merely a delusion of the sea. You aren't going anywhere as there is no where to be. You merely are this now, and you could just as easily return by the same tossing sea. Can one wave say to the other wave "I am better"?
Hah, this could actually make a pretty good Buddhist sermon.

I suppose that to you, this just seems depressing and pointless. But I'm curious if you can see why it's the opposite for me. Or does it just seem crazy?

"You aren't going anywhere as there is no where to be" - that's a good koan!
 
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Sanoy

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Hah, this could actually make a pretty good Buddhist sermon.

I suppose that to you, this just seems depressing and pointless. But I'm curious if you can see why it's the opposite for me. Or does it just seem crazy?

"You aren't going anywhere as there is no where to be" - that's a good koan!
It could be depressing or it could be uplifting, but in either case it is pointless. Your belief in Oneness is just the unremarkable and momentary bounce of a cork on an endless sea in no greater position than your prior belief.
 
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holo

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It could be depressing or it could be uplifting, but in either case it is pointless. Your belief in Oneness is just the unremarkable and momentary bounce of a cork on an endless sea in no greater position than your prior belief.
It may be pointless in the sense that it's not according to some sort of supreme will or purpose. I guess that if there is some some sort of ultimate purpose, then our knowing what that purpose is isn't part of that purpose, if you see what I mean. There are so many conflicting ideas of the purpose of life that I don't suspect I'll ever find out what it is, not in this lifetime at least. But again, that doesn't mean I can't have a sense of purpose in my life. I very much do, and one of the things that gives my life meaning is the search for meaning itself, the fact that we exist at all. If the universe is meaningless, it's all the more remarkable and beautiful that we find meaning in it anyway.

The idea of oneness doesn't seem to me so much as a belief, but more as a realization about the way things already are: it's simply a fact that everything is interconnected and that whatever I am is the product of whatever else there is. I didn't come into existence from nothing or from something "outside" of the universe. In a way it's depressing to know that I wouldn't have existed if some caveman hadn't raped a cavewoman in the stone age. On the other hand it's an uplifting thought that even though I'm the product of billions of years of chance and violence, here I am today with a pasture outside my window and a child on my lap.
 
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The idea of oneness doesn't seem to me so much as a belief, but more as a realization about the way things already are: it's simply a fact that everything is interconnected and that whatever I am is the product of whatever else there is. I didn't come into existence from nothing or from something "outside" of the universe. In a way it's depressing to know that I wouldn't have existed if some caveman hadn't raped a cavewoman in the stone age. On the other hand it's an uplifting thought that even though I'm the product of billions of years of chance and violence, here I am today with a pasture outside my window and a child on my lap.
There's the way of knowing Oneness that you describe which is more or less mental concepts. Then there is the mystics way of knowing which is "experiencing" the Oneness.
 
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Sanoy

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It may be pointless in the sense that it's not according to some sort of supreme will or purpose. I guess that if there is some some sort of ultimate purpose, then our knowing what that purpose is isn't part of that purpose, if you see what I mean. There are so many conflicting ideas of the purpose of life that I don't suspect I'll ever find out what it is, not in this lifetime at least. But again, that doesn't mean I can't have a sense of purpose in my life. I very much do, and one of the things that gives my life meaning is the search for meaning itself, the fact that we exist at all. If the universe is meaningless, it's all the more remarkable and beautiful that we find meaning in it anyway.

The idea of oneness doesn't seem to me so much as a belief, but more as a realization about the way things already are: it's simply a fact that everything is interconnected and that whatever I am is the product of whatever else there is. I didn't come into existence from nothing or from something "outside" of the universe. In a way it's depressing to know that I wouldn't have existed if some caveman hadn't raped a cavewoman in the stone age. On the other hand it's an uplifting thought that even though I'm the product of billions of years of chance and violence, here I am today with a pasture outside my window and a child on my lap.
There is no reason to try and defend this world view, or paint it up to appear nice. It is what it is, and externally equal to all other world views, including your prior world view. The problem isn't that we won't know what the purpose is, as if it were something we had the ability to seek out. The problem is much deeper than that. The problem is we have the sensation of knowing, but not the ability of actually doing so.

You speak of having a purpose as if your purpose is somehow precious, but it's not. Whether your purpose is to help mankind or destroy it, it makes no difference, nor is one higher than the other as you try to paint it. You enjoy the same delusion as the thief and the murder, the only difference is they are honest with themselves when they say it doesn't matter what they do.

Your belief in Oneness is no more remarkable than a tree growing a branch. You haven't arrived there by any rational pursuit, you are just on a different wave of the ocean than the one before. The next wave could be nihilism, pure self honesty, stripped of that delusion that keeps us afloat. Who knows what dance the endless sea will have us doing next.
 
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holo

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There is no reason to try and defend this world view, or paint it up to appear nice.
I don't see why you would insist on interpreting it in the most depressing way possible, though.

It is what it is, and externally equal to all other world views, including your prior world view.
True, it is what it is, and that's important to realize if your goal is to have any sort of peace. "It is what it is" isn't the same as saying "there's no point in trying to change anything."

You speak of having a purpose as if your purpose is somehow precious, but it's not.
Sure it is. It's precious to me. It doesn't have to be "ultimately" precious, or precious to some higher being or plan.

Whether your purpose is to help mankind or destroy it, it makes no difference, nor is one higher than the other as you try to paint it.
Of course it makes a difference. It makes, in a sense quite literally, a world of difference how I see things. It makes an enormous difference if I'm a nihilist or philanthropist.

Your belief in Oneness is no more remarkable than a tree growing a branch.
In that case, believing in Oneness is an extremely remarkable thing. Trees growing branches is extremely rare in the universe, it's a most beautiful thing. To imagine I get to see it happen! It's one of those things we so easily take for granted, but for all intents and purposes, it's a miracle.

You haven't arrived there by any rational pursuit, you are just on a different wave of the ocean than the one before. The next wave could be nihilism, pure self honesty, stripped of that delusion that keeps us afloat. Who knows what dance the endless sea will have us doing next.
It's not like I don't make choices or have no ability to reason. Yes, I might become a Muslim, or get cancer, or win the lottery, or my friends may die. I don't know what will happen. I find it wiser and healthier to accept uncertainty rather than trying to eliminate it, which more often than not only leads to more suffering. I can't know for sure what I'll think next year, or even tomorrow. Though I find it pretty unlikely that I'll become some sort of nihilist.

But yes, like it or not, you and I are both cruising the waves we happen to be on. We didn't choose when or where to be born, or into what society and circumstance, which have made us who we are. I guess I'm just sort of learning to come to peace with being in the ocean at all. I can't take pride in my "wave" or condemn anybody else for being on theirs.
 
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holo

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There's the way of knowing Oneness that you describe which is more or less mental concepts. Then there is the mystics way of knowing which is "experiencing" the Oneness.
True. It's sort of like knowing about what friendship is, vs. actually having a friend.
 
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Sanoy

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I don't see why you would insist on interpreting it in the most depressing way possible, though.

True, it is what it is, and that's important to realize if your goal is to have any sort of peace. "It is what it is" isn't the same as saying "there's no point in trying to change anything."

Sure it is. It's precious to me. It doesn't have to be "ultimately" precious, or precious to some higher being or plan.

Of course it makes a difference. It makes, in a sense quite literally, a world of difference how I see things. It makes an enormous difference if I'm a nihilist or philanthropist.

In that case, believing in Oneness is an extremely remarkable thing. Trees growing branches is extremely rare in the universe, it's a most beautiful thing. To imagine I get to see it happen! It's one of those things we so easily take for granted, but for all intents and purposes, it's a miracle.

It's not like I don't make choices or have no ability to reason. Yes, I might become a Muslim, or get cancer, or win the lottery, or my friends may die. I don't know what will happen. I find it wiser and healthier to accept uncertainty rather than trying to eliminate it, which more often than not only leads to more suffering. I can't know for sure what I'll think next year, or even tomorrow. Though I find it pretty unlikely that I'll become some sort of nihilist.

But yes, like it or not, you and I are both cruising the waves we happen to be on. We didn't choose when or where to be born, or into what society and circumstance, which have made us who we are. I guess I'm just sort of learning to come to peace with being in the ocean at all. I can't take pride in my "wave" or condemn anybody else for being on theirs.
You have shown the "positive side", so I have to show the "negative side" because the whole thing is a broken wheel with one good side and one bad side which takes you no where. And of course there is no real positive or negative because that too is just the toss of the sea, a fiz in your brain that makes you feel positive about it. The nature of the thing has nothing to do with it, it's just a chemical reaction.

I am not saying it isn't precious to you, I am saying your purpose is not precious. It's just one wave among many waves, no better that thieving for a thief. Whether or not you are a thief or a philanthropist makes a difference to you merely because the ocean has tossed you that way, just as it has tossed the thief into his lifestyle. Don't be mistaken into thinking you have somehow chosen something worthwhile and honorable, no not at all. Your biology compelled you to have those thoughts, there is nothing fundamentally different about those thoughts than those of murderer. Your biology compelled you to think a tree growing a branch is remarkable, that Oness is remarkable, and just like before it is no more remarkable than murder. Whether the branch grows left, or whether it grows right makes no real difference. And though you may claim it it does, that is merely a sensation that occurred inside you, no different than the murderers sensation. You speak of sensations as if they actually point to anything at all, as if they guide you to anything at all, but they don't.

You have a sensation that you reason, but why should you actually have the ability to do so?
 
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I don't see why you would insist on interpreting it in the most depressing way possible, though.
Because Sanoy wants you to become a Christian.

I won't butt in, though. Just wanted to say, I'm finding this conversation most interesting!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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holo

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You have shown the "positive side", so I have to show the "negative side" because the whole thing is a broken wheel with one good side and one bad side which takes you no where.
Well, given the choice, I'm happy to take the good side. But I'm not sure I follow you here. Should something take me somewhere? Where to?

And of course there is no real positive or negative because that too is just the toss of the sea, a fiz in your brain that makes you feel positive about it. The nature of the thing has nothing to do with it, it's just a chemical reaction.
Yes, that seems to be how the world works. Chemical or electrical reactions in our brains seem to be what, when you look at it physically, produces this or that feeling in our consciousness.

I am not saying it isn't precious to you, I am saying your purpose is not precious.
Doesn't it count that it's precious to me? Or, who should it be precious to, to "count"?

It's just one wave among many waves, no better that thieving for a thief.
I think we can agree that having peace is better than stealing, regardless of why one has peace or steals?

Whether or not you are a thief or a philanthropist makes a difference to you merely because the ocean has tossed you that way, just as it has tossed the thief into his lifestyle.
True. I am a product of my time and surroundings. I could've been born into slavery or crime. I didn't create myself, I'm just very fortunate. Realizing that makes everything appear in a different light: how could I condemn anyone for being what they are? It's not like we start out with blank slates and freely choose to be good or evil. Even the bible says so, as far as I can tell: people aren't sinners because they choose to be, but because they're born sinners. Paul laments this in Romans, right? Like "I find I am a slave to sin" etc.

Don't be mistaken into thinking you have somehow chosen something worthwhile and honorable, no not at all. Your biology compelled you to have those thoughts, there is nothing fundamentally different about those thoughts than those of murderer. Your biology compelled you to think a tree growing a branch is remarkable, that Oness is remarkable, and just like before it is no more remarkable than murder. Whether the branch grows left, or whether it grows right makes no real difference. And though you may claim it it does, that is merely a sensation that occurred inside you, no different than the murderers sensation. You speak of sensations as if they actually point to anything at all, as if they guide you to anything at all, but they don't.
Again, I agree. I make choices all the time, but I don't see how they're free in the sense that I could really have chosen otherwise. I mean, if you can choose freely, why would you ever do something sinful or unwise? You could simply have chosen to always do the right thing. But we don't choose our own desires.

You have a sensation that you reason, but why should you actually have the ability to do so?
I don't know why we have the ability to (or at least an illusion of) reason, or to be conscious at all. My brain could do its thing, like a machine, and it's a mystery how consciousness comes about and what its purpose may be. We have no awareness of the vast majority of what the brain is doing, all the things it controls, and it seems like things like making choices isn't something consciousness does, it's something it becomes aware of after the fact, or at best, as it happens.

Anyway, your point seems to be that if there's no "higher purpose" then everything is ultimately meaningless. That is, it doesn't mean anything to anyone other than us. But even if you believe in God and feel that his purpose is all that counts, that feeling itself is just your personal concept of meaning, right? I guess you couldn't choose to find meaning in serving God any more than I can choose to find meaning in seeing my son smile. That's just how we are.

(Not sure if I'm making much sense, I should've been in bed a long time ago. Come to think of it, I was in bed a long time ago.)
 
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holo

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It can also be like being found by a different "kind" of friend who enables us to think he's more than happy to take us on board when the first friend didn't come through in being the friend that we wanted Him to be. o_O

Getting spiritually Screwtaped Over – by C.S. Lewis
Hah, well that's kind of how I feel about my whole (de-)conversion. In my experience, my friend God turned out not to be there (or maybe it's more correct to say that my idea of God didn't stand the test).
 
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holo

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Because Sanoy wants you to become a Christian.
I think that's true, and I can sympathize with it. When I was a believer myself, it was pretty much impossible for me to believe that one could find real peace apart from Christ. But apparently, you can. And we both want others to find the peace that we've found, so from my standpoint at least, we're on the same team.
 
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