Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

Is predestination done through God's foreknowledge?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 47.4%
  • No

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 26.3%

  • Total voters
    19

sdowney717

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Your definition of will renders eph:1:5 meaningless. Having predestined us at the beginning, he was simply prepared to save us or ready to do so. That would be a ridiculous interpretation, especially in light of such strong language at the beginning of the verse. To will is to act, it is God who acts in our salvation, it is he who opens our cold dead heart.
Yes, And God chose US from the beginning to be saved. But not all of us, not all of the human race did God chose to save.

Here Paul tells us the why, when, how, means and result of us becoming saved.
Why, because God loved us even before our creation.
When, the beginning, which is before the foundation of the earth or thereabouts.
The how, by becoming sanctified, made holy to Him by the Holy Spirit's work on us, not our works, which produced in us belief in the truth (Christ).
The means, our individual calling by the gospel.
The result, the obtaining of the glory of of Our Lord. That Christ would have many brothers, and God would have a big family of loved ones.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.
 
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zoidar

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Yes, And God chose US from the beginning to be saved. But not all of us, not all of the human race did God chose to save.

Here Paul tells us the why, when, how, means and result of us becoming saved.
Why, because God loved us even before our creation.
When, the beginning, which is before the foundation of the earth or thereabouts.
The how, by becoming sanctified, made holy to Him by the Holy Spirit's work on us, not our works, which produced in us belief in the truth (Christ).
The means, our individual calling by the gospel.
The result, the obtaining of the glory of of Our Lord. That Christ would have many brothers, and God would have a big family of loved ones.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

Why did God love us before creation?
 
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bling

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Why did God love us before creation?
God Loves everyone, but before time began He realized only those who accepted His Love would be happy in heaven, so he would use those who refused His Love to help those who could still accept His Love, which would include them going to hell.
 
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MDC

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God Loves everyone, but before time began He realized only those who accepted His Love would be happy in heaven, so he would use those who refused His Love to help those who could still accept His Love, which would include them going to hell.
His love for the elect is according to His will and what He purposed in Himself. A purpose we are not to speculate on. And has nothing to do with what we would do. It’s all of mercy to the praise of the glory of His grace in Christ. Ephesians 1:6.
 
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renniks

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Your definition of will renders eph:1:5 meaningless. Having predestined us at the beginning, he was simply prepared to save us or ready to do so. That would be a ridiculous interpretation, especially in light of such strong language at the beginning of the verse. To will is to act, it is God who acts in our salvation, it is he who opens our cold dead heart.
To will is not always to act. Gods will is that all be saved. But not all accept salvation.
 
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zoidar

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His love for the elect is according to His will and what He purposed in Himself. A purpose we are not to speculate on. And has nothing to do with what we would do. It’s all of mercy to the praise of the glory of His grace in Christ. Ephesians 1:6.

God loves us because of an unknown reason? I don't agree.
 
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sdowney717

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Why did God love us before creation?
He does not tell us why He did, just that He did love us with such a great love that He caused us to be saved by His grace. the love of God is manifested towards us, which i why we came to understand and know Him. It is because He gave us an understanding to know Him who is true.
Why did God love Jacob and hated Esau before they had done anything good or bad?
Paul tells us it was so that His calling of us would stand according to His election of us by His grace and not of by our works.

Such is the majesty and great power of God, that He reigns as Lord God almighty.
Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

BEFORE they were born God has determined their fate and so their life then follows the course set by Him.

And we read that then Esau grew up to be a wild man of the fields, a fornicator, so an immoral man and profane and cared nothing for the proper things of God. Esau did not recognize God as all that important and caused his parents much grief.

Ephesians 1
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
 
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zoidar

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You don’t agree because you seem to assume you are worthy of Gods grace and love. The opinion you put forth is evident of someone who lacks conviction of ones own sin

Why do you believe that? I don't understand your reasoning.
 
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zoidar

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He does not tell us why He did, just that He did love us with such a great love that He caused us to be saved by His grace. the love of God is manifested towards us, which i why we came to understand and know Him. It is because He gave us an understanding to know Him who is true.
Why did God love Jacob and hated Esau before they had done anything good or bad?
Paul tells us it was so that His calling of us would stand according to His election of us by His grace and not of by our works.

Such is the majesty and great power of God, that He reigns as Lord God almighty.
Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

BEFORE they were born God has determined their fate and so their life then follows the course set by Him.

And we read that then Esau grew up to be a wild man of the fields, a fornicator, so an immoral man and profane and cared nothing for the proper things of God. Esau did not recognize God as all that important and caused his parents much grief.

Ephesians 1
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

The unknown cause of God's love for us like MDC described.

I believe God loves us because God is love. The proof of that is that God sent His Son into the world that anyone who believes in him will be saved.
 
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sdowney717

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The unknown cause of God's love for us like MDC described.

I believe God loves us because God is love. The proof of that is that God sent His Son into the world that anyone who believes in him will be saved.
God does not love everyone. He does not love the devil, demons or the devil's children, He promises to destroy them.
So He sends people He loves to Hell according to your view, yet His word says because He loved us He caused us to be begotten again. If God loves everyone with the same love, then none would be going to hell, He would save everyone. God loves His children, He is love towards them.
You are quoting how God is love, but do you understand what that means.
Who exactly is John writing to in his letter? The people who he writes to is the church of the saved, not the unsaved people of the world. All of the 'us' and the 'we' here are all those He has begotten again due to His great love for them.

1 John 4:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
 
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sdowney717

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17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Now realize something about v19, the people of the world do not love Him (Christ)
If God had loved them, then they would have been begotten again by Him and love Him back, but since He did not love them, He did not cause them to be born again and so they then do not love God.

The scripture can not be broken. This is a cause and effect principle in v19.

We are born of God according to His will and not our will.
 
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zoidar

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God does not love everyone. He does not love the devil, demons or the devil's children, He promises to destroy them.
So He sends people He loves to Hell according to your view, yet His word says because He loved us He caused us to be begotten again. If God loves everyone with the same love, then none would be going to hell, He would save everyone. God loves His children, He is love towards them.
You are quoting how God is love, but do you understand what that means.
Who exactly is John writing to in his letter? The people who he writes to is the church of the saved, not the unsaved people of the world. All of the 'us' and the 'we' here are all those He has begotten again due to His great love for them.

1 John 4:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

From my view you put God into a theological system, that I don't see in the Bible. You are of course free to believe it.
 
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sdowney717

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1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

From my view you put God into a theological system, that I don't see in the Bible. You are of course free to believe it.
You do understand John is a jew and speaking of Jews they had a hard time believing Christ would save gentiles too. So he tells them Christ will be saving some gentiles and some jews.
And that verse does not tell us Christ forgave the sins of the whole world does it. Just that He saves those who believe, it is only believers sins that are propitiated.
 
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zoidar

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You do understand John is a jew and speaking of Jews they had a hard time believing Christ would save gentiles too. So he tells them Christ will be saving some gentiles and some jews.
And that verse does not tell us Christ forgave the sins of the whole world does it. Just that He saves those who believe, it is only believers sins that are propitiated.

I don't think we are too far from each other in understanding. We are propitiated, appeased to God once we receive Christ, that's when atonement takes place. We switch place with Christ, he takes our sins, we get his righteousness.

I make the distinction, God took the punishment of every man, woman and child on himself, but we are not forgiven, atoned until we come in relationship with Christ through faith.

Romans 3
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
 
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sdowney717

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I don't think we are too far from each other in understanding. We are propitiated, appeased to God once we receive Christ, that's when atonement takes place. We switch place with Christ, he takes our sins, we get his righteousness.

I make the distinction, God took the punishment of every man, woman and child on himself, but we are not forgiven, atoned until we come in relationship with Christ through faith.

Romans 3
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
Propitiation is the appeasement of wrath. And Christ saves 'us' from the wrath of God that comes upon the unbelievers.
So the unbelievers do not have any blanket propitiation of their sins.
There are quite a few verses telling us of the wrath of God in the NT scriptures. Here are just three.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Colossians 3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

1 Thessalonians 1: to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Wrath on them is not only coming, it abides currently on them who dont and who wont believe. So they have no propitiation, no forgiveness, there is no peace between the wicked and God brought about by Christ. Bible says we must all be changed, spiritually given life or we will be destroyed by God's abiding and coming wrath.
 
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zoidar

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Propitiation is the appeasement of wrath. And Christ saves 'us' from the wrath of God that comes upon the unbelievers.
So the unbelievers do not have any blanket propitiation of their sins.
There are quite a few verses telling us of the wrath of God in the NT scriptures. Here are just three.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Colossians 3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

1 Thessalonians 1: to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Wrath on them is not only coming, it abides currently on them who dont and who wont believe. So they have no propitiation, no forgiveness, there is no peace between the wicked and God brought about by Christ. Bible says we must all be changed, spiritually given life or we will be destroyed by God's abiding and coming wrath.

I agree and don't agree. Hilasterion means "appeasing sacrifice". That is what Christ is. How did he become this appeasing sacrifice? Through taking the punishment for all sin in the whole world, I believe. Then through faith we are atoned, reconcilied, saved, and God's wrath is appeased, turned away from us.

Thanks for showing me I used the word propitiation wrong!
 
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bling

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His love for the elect is according to His will and what He purposed in Himself. A purpose we are not to speculate on. And has nothing to do with what we would do. It’s all of mercy to the praise of the glory of His grace in Christ. Ephesians 1:6.
Are you saying: the answer to: “What must I do for eternal life” is “nothing” and if so why did Jesus say something different?

Where does it say: God Loves only the elect?

Would deity loving only the elect include Jesus, since Mark 10: 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Can you point out to me the examples of Jesus not loving someone?

This “purpose we are not to speculate on”, is spoken of in scripture as something we cannot understand or even speculate on, that is the way some people get out of the corner they put themselves in, which only makes God out to be a liar.

You cannot say: “Salvation has nothing to do with us” and “we can’t speculate on how God choses who to save”, when the Bible tells us how God does choose and what we must do.

Eph. 1 is addressing only people who became Christians and not how they became Christian.

All these wonderful things, planned to be given to Christians from the beginning of time, has been given to these Ephesian Christians.
 
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BBAS 64

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No one is perfect, we need sacrifice for sin.



It's by the Holy Spirit one is regenerated. By circumsision of the heart you get to know Christ. Jesus is no longer someone we know about, but we know him personally. I believe that is regeneration. Some way God leads you towards the point were you will have to make a decision to give your life to Christ or not, that's the drawing of God.

You are saying all this is God's doing and we got no part in this. I believe we have. I often use this analogy: God is the big wheel, we are the small wheel inside the big wheel. Like this our free will isn't independent of God's will.



What word would you suggest I use instead?



I agree with this.

Good Day, Zoidar

Let's look at a classic passage about regeneration and the new heart. Lets see what God does and what we do the cause and the direct effect of the cause.

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

What God does... gives a new heart, and a new spirit, remove the heart of stone (you have a new one circumcised ) and put His Spirit in you ( that is new to you).

The purpose why God did what he did...

You now walk in his ways, and obey his rules. you do it why (effects)?

What is the cause?

God is the cause, what we do, know and experience is the effects of what God has done for His purpose.

God is the cause we reap the blessed effects at His hand and adore Him for them.

In Him,

Bill
 
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MDC

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Are you saying: the answer to: “What must I do for eternal life” is “nothing” and if so why did Jesus say something different?

Where does it say: God Loves only the elect?

Would deity loving only the elect include Jesus, since Mark 10: 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Can you point out to me the examples of Jesus not loving someone?

This “purpose we are not to speculate on”, is spoken of in scripture as something we cannot understand or even speculate on, that is the way some people get out of the corner they put themselves in, which only makes God out to be a liar.

You cannot say: “Salvation has nothing to do with us” and “we can’t speculate on how God choses who to save”, when the Bible tells us how God does choose and what we must do.

Eph. 1 is addressing only people who became Christians and not how they became Christian.

All these wonderful things, planned to be given to Christians from the beginning of time, has been given to these Ephesian Christians.
Romans 9 basically answers all your questions and squashes your opinion that “ God loves everyone and before time began He realized only those who would accept His love would be happy in heaven...” Cannot see how you get that from Ephesians 1.
 
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