Salvation is a process of co-operation between man and God

Albion said:

...and I apologize to you if I seemed short with you. It wasn't what you wrote so much as the accumulation of posts from a number of people trying to bring other issues into this discussion which, really, is quite straightforward.

Click to expand...

I understand your frustration; we all face them from time to time on this site. I was working off your very first post to the OP however in which you bring up work righteousness vs grace/gift...I think you might agree it can be misunderstood/misinterpreted. I then read one of your follow ups...the one I replied to...and it suggested a reiteration of your first and again took it in the wrong light. Satan is always a foot and I'm happy we cleared the air.

Albion said:

That is safe to say, but we all realize that the church lays out standards, guidelines, and 'dos' and 'don'ts.' The Catholic churches do this more than other ones. But aside from saying "good works are part of what God looks at when he decides on you at the judgment" they have no specific advice to offer their members about which works, how often, nothing.

If it were any other issue--doctrine, for example, or immoral practices--these churches would have more particulars to lay on the membership than they could even take in. But when it comes to salvation, it's well, "who knows?" "Oh yes, God knows."

Click to expand...

Actually many dos and don'ts have been outlined by the church for centuries, and the catechism is fairly well stocked with them from the commandments to "spiritual and corporal works of mercy", to name some. But the primary measure, which is the work and operation of the Spirit in us, is love, which acts for the good of others by its nature and which therefore is the right motivating factor for any work or act of righteousness that it may compel. Such that the Church teaches, quoting a 16th century believer, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

That's the "return", the increase, grace leading to more grace. Love is the definition of justice for man, the image of God we're to be transformed into, and the reason for acts done "for the least of these" in Matt 25 (acts done by people who didn't even know God had noticed) or the works God "prepared in advance" for them to do as per Eph 2:10.

throughfireytrial said:

I understand your frustration; we all face them from time to time on this site. I was working off your very first post to the OP however in which you bring up work righteousness vs grace/gift...I think you might agree it can be misunderstood/misinterpreted. I then read one of your follow ups...the one I replied to...and it suggested a reiteration of your first and again took it in the wrong light. Satan is always a foot and I'm happy we cleared the air.

Click to expand...

Very good. I'm sure it's repetitive for some, but over and over I've posted in these threads that both sides of the main debate in these kinds of threads about Grace and Works typically are not understanding what the other side is saying. Many will indeed guess wrong, and not realize it.

That's the main debate, usually: mere misunderstanding. (I'm not claiming no other issue ever comes up)

After I point out the main misunderstanding, sometimes (not always) some will insist they do understand the other side.

And usually I don't say "no, you don't understand them" or such (even though that's exactly the real situation most always), because that would descend into mere arguing.

So, I think it's good to go ahead and repeat Ephesians 2:8-10 for each thread, sometimes more than once, so that here and there someone will notice a verse of the 3 they haven't before, even if many already have all 3. Very helpful then is to point to John 15:1-17 (but not in the opaque ASV this site uses), to help us understand Ephesians 2:10.

I wonder if it would help to do something like the Orthodox, where they think of 'faith' as including works, the word itself. Like a living thing, like an organism.

BCsenior said:

But, they didn't have a new creation, the Holy Spirit, the whole counsel of God.

Click to expand...

OT and NT, people who had faith or simply turned to the Creator wholeheartedly, in truth seeking Him, found Him.
Others in the same temple, the same town, the same city, with those who rejected Yahuweh, or with those who rejected Jesus,
accepted Yahuweh, (were perhaps always seeking the truth, seeking Him) ,
and accepted Yahushua (like those immersed by John, they later readily accepted Yahushua as Messiah and believed on Him - those who rejected John and were not repenting, were not immersed, they reject Yahushua as Messiah, according to Scripture) ....

So no one has an excuse. (like for not having "a new creation, the Holy Spirit, the whole counsel of God") ...
God accepts no excuse.

BCsenior said:

Of course, that's #1 ... but He and His Scriptures tell us there's more to it than that.

Now, like most others here, is this your excuse for NOT following Him,
and for NOT doing what He commands you to do?

Another good excuse for you would be, "Nothing else pertains to my salvation!",
and "Everything else must be referring to rewards!"

Sorry, no cigar! ... What you'll get is hot, but it won't be a cigar!

Click to expand...

no sir, that's not an excuse. God's grace is the reason. And I am following Him. Please stop making assumptions that aren't true

BCsenior said:

Thou too understands what's going on!
But, who, dear brother, will believe you?

Click to expand...

Believe me for what? Covenant theology? There is a forum here if people are interested in a discussion on Covenant theology. Jesus said: "For this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Do you take issue with the The Westminster Confession of Faith? Is that what your question is? For me this is a basic assumption that the old testament is the new concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. I was not aware that anyone took issue with that. "These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Colossions2:17)

My approach to the Bible is very expository and understanding what the words mean. So I do not get into discussions on theology very often.

BCsenior said:

You don't understand what having the correct and acceptable heart attitude
before the Lord is, or is this just another excuse?
Which might it be?

Click to expand...

Do you always only quote part of what a person said to you? How about reading my whole post next time?

jsimms615 said:

Do you always only quote part of what a person said to you? How about reading my whole post next time?

Click to expand...

Whether he was right or wrong, I did not look into.
Many posters quote a part of a post, the part that is 'important' or that they are responding to.

If it changes the context somehow, then simply show that .
If it does not change the context nor the meaning, then it is quite proper , and there's no problem with it.

I really like your post, because you effectively quoted the Scriptures, you were not being melodramatic or spiteful, and you were well organized in respectfully introducing the Scriptures regarding the subject of a true Bible faith in Jesus for salvation.

BCsenior said:

Believers are accountable to the Lord God who saved them! Dozens of NT verses teach that their salvation is conditional.

After the Holy Spirit indwells them, they are sanctified (set apart) for further sanctification unto holiness. During this process, believers are required to co-operate with the Holy Spirit’s efforts to sanctify them, and to overcome sin, Satan, persecution, etc. (see Revelation 3:21).

Click to expand...

Setst RE:
Indeed, Scripture is clear that we must repent and believe in Lord Jesus to be saved – OT and NT.

The Scriptures are clear that each person is to overcome so they may share eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 2:4-7 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

BCsenior said:

The sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in each believer’s life is conditioned upon walking in the Spirit we received

Click to expand...

Setst RE: That is what Scripture teaches.

A true Christian realizes he is responsible to walk by the Spirit he received by faith

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Up to you to sow to the Spirit you received by faith to reap life

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time WE will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Up to you to walk in the Spirit you received by faith

Galatians 5:16 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

You must live according to the Spirit you received by faith

Romans 8:3-4 (NIV)
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

BCsenior said:

There is only space below for some of the topics and “proof text” verses …

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are obedient

Click to expand...

Setst RE: Amen! To believe in Jesus is to love Jesus is to know Jesus. Our love for Lord Jesus must necessarily lead us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him to be saved. In fact, the Father and Son will not make their home with a person if their faith does not lead them to obedience.

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

No salvation to any supposed Christian who does not listen to and follow Jesus as Lord.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25-26
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves me, him My Father will honor.

BCsenior said:

Believers are obedient IF they are NOT habitual sinners
(Romans 6:16-19)

Click to expand...

Setst RE: Very clear. You cannot have two masters, you cannot be a fence sitter. You must be either cold or hot - both are of great value. The lukewarm are good for nothing and are spit out, although God does give time for us to repent. Even so, we must be diligent so that the deceitfulness of sinful acts and thoughts do not harden our hearts.

Faith in Christ is a commitment to deny the old master and then to live in obedience to our new Master – the Lord Jesus. See Romans 6. Short Chapter.

BCsenior said:

● “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

Click to expand...

setst RE: This passage is a Scriptural warning to believers in the Church – written to believers to read and understand.

BCsenior said:

Believers are righteous IF they practice righteousnesss

● “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.

He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin (habitually) …

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT love his brother.” (1 John 3:7-10)

Believers who are “faithful” will be obedient to Jesus’ commandments, and will practice righteousness!
● “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
● “… who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

Click to expand...

Setst RE: Right on. I born again Christian - a child of God - is identified as one who fears God and practices righteousness. That is sanctification. And that is what Scripture urges and commands each one of US to do…

Romans 12:1 (NIV) Bolding mine… 1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God — this is your true and proper worship.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:

• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
• “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord turns away from wickedness.”

YOU are responsible to:

• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 6:18-19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . .

God delights in our obedient faith and required this faith of you to be saved.

• we can examine ourselves to know if we are in Jesus or not: that if you claim to live in Jesus, then we will live as Jesus did: 1 Jn 2:5-6
• in like manner, if someone says they know Jesus, but do not do what he commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that person: 1 Jn 2:4

Your faith must lead to obedience...

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV)
... 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

The Great Commission
Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 14:21 (NIV)
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

1 John 2:4 (NIV)
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

Romans 6:22
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

The Spirit is only received by obeying Christ Jesus (an obedient faith)...

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

After you receive the Spirit by an obedient faith, then You are:

• obligated
• to put to death the misdeeds of the body,
• to live by, walk in, the Spirit
• to reap to the Holy Spirit to be saved and
• set free from sin...

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Continued...

Continued...

BCsenior said:

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are repenting

“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as being opposite sides of the same coin.
(2 Peter 1:9)
(1 John 1:9)

Confession needs to be followed by repentance!

“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness, from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them” (The Applied New Testament Commentary)

Click to expand...

setst RE: Excellent. That is what the Scriptures teach. Repentance and faith are not one time actions – Christians are warned to remain faithful to the end to be saved.

BCsenior said:

Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
● “God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor … God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives … anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.”

(1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
● “God has given us everything we need to live a godly life … Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen … It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it, and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life”

(2 Peter 1:3, 1:10, 2:21)
● “God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
… work at living a holy life, for those who are NOT holy will NOT see the Lord.
… Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking.” (Hebrews 12:10-25)

Click to expand...

Setst RE: The OT and NT continually teach this. God is patient, but those “Christians” who deliberately keep on sinning will be condemned.

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB)
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For WE have become partakers of Christ, IF WE hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If WE deliberately keep on sinning after WE have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished

• who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
• who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,
• and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For WE know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again,
“The Lord will judge HIS people.”

Notice that the object of more severe punishment were saved because they were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and they insulted the Spirit of grace. And, the Lord will judge HIS people (vs 30).

The Lord's people receive a more severe punishment than those never saved for deliberately sinning against Him.

The Scriptures clearly show that those who are saved by faith in Jesus can definitely succumb to sin, temptation and false doctrine and, if not repented of, will definitely lead to a loss of salvation if they do not continue to walk in the Spirit.

We see many Scriptures from the Gospels to Revelation concerning those who were in "the faith," or "grace" but fell away. "The faith" and "grace" are special phrases used in Scripture that can only refer to "the faith" and "grace" that the Gospel declares as salvation and righteousness onto salvation.

Jude 3 (WEB)
3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for “the faith” which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Those who were in the faith can so fall away as to be lost. NOTE that “the” in front of “faith” identifies the faith mentioned as the true faith of Scripture.

Galatians 5:4-5
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

1 Timothy 1:19 (NIV)
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to “the faith.”

1 Timothy 4:1-4 (NIV)
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon “the faith” and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

1 Timothy 6:10 (NIV)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from “the faith” and pierced themselves with many griefs.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (NIV)
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from “the faith.”

Lord Jesus gave many warnings to repent regarding Churches in Revelation. I gave Scriptures for this as well. Only a few did not fall into sin...

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

Revelation 3:5 (WEB) Bolding mine… 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

BCsenior said:

Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives

In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!

Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!

● “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him should not perish but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:16)

● “… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)

● “It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you, IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

Click to expand...

Setst RE: God’s blessings on you for representing God, His Word, and His Gospel with honor and integrity.

For God’s part, He is faithful to accomplish all He promises for those who Believe… All the promises of God are ours only by faith in Christ Jesus, and remaining faithful to the end. All this is possible because of the redemption that is ours through faith in Christ Jesus.

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end – that is the God’s condition to receive the free gift of salvation:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account as a gift:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

Luke 21:34-35 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I(talking to individuals) could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual Christians) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you(the Christian he is talking to) either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

• Branches are individuals.
• Gentiles are included by faith.

Romans 11:25... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

No Gentile nations here. And their is only one Israel, not many Israels.

• Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
• but must remain faithful
• or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
• That is why we must be afraid

If the person claiming to be a Christian is reading this message, and is honest with himself, even though he may still be living in sin, he will understand the truth of what a living faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior really means. The Scripture instruction makes clear that the responsibility is on the born again Christian to live by the Spirit, not that the Spirit does the work for you. This is the demonstration that our faith is alive - a new creation in Christ Jesus

Blessings and Love

fhansen said:

Actually many dos and don'ts have been outlined by the church for centuries, and the catechism is fairly well stocked with them from the commandments to "spiritual and corporal works of mercy", to name some. But the primary measure, which is the work and operation of the Spirit in us, is love, which acts for the good of others by its nature and which therefore is the right motivating factor for any work or act of righteousness that it may compel. Such that the Church teaches, quoting a 16th century believer, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

Click to expand...

Yes, that's all very logical...on paper. So when a new member of your church is asking about how we are saved, the answer isn't "By faith in Christ Jesus, trusting in his righteousness, etc." but instead it's something like "Be good. " The point I'm referring to should be obvious now.

That's the "return", the increase, grace leading to more grace.

Click to expand...

Doesn't that simply illustrate the problem I just referred to??

Love is the definition of justice for man, the image of God we're to be transformed into, and the reason for acts done "for the least of these" in Matt 25 (acts done by people who didn't even know God had noticed) or the works God "prepared in advance" for them to do as per Eph 2:10.

Click to expand...

Well, just about everyone can agree to some version of that statement, but it doesn't really tell anyone how they may be saved. Seriously, the Catholic churches do not say "Just believe in Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior" No, they say that salvation is by Faith AND Works, but when it comes to the Works part, the church can be no more specific.

It's no wonder that people worry about it or just push it out of their minds as they approach the end of their lives...and simply hope for the best or else fall back upon that old favorite, "I've been good."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yes, but most people around us, just as always, most people on earth, just as it has been and is and will be, never find out. They choose to reject Jesus instead.

Click to expand...

The more I know people, the more I realize they don't have a clue of Who they are rejecting. It is not until they become mentally aware that one day they will die that the thought of needing something or someone to save them becomes real.

I think every human is born with a natural instinct to worship. Look at all those people in the Old Testament, they wanted to worship, but they wanted to worship something they could see; Missing the real God over and over. Since we were made in His image, we are naturally drawn to Him, but the devil is sneaky and gives us alternatives.

Thank God He doesn't give up on us!

Halbhh said:

Very good. I'm sure it's repetitive for some, but over and over I've posted in these threads that both sides of the main debate in these kinds of threads about Grace and Works typically are not understanding what the other side is saying. Many will indeed guess wrong, and not realize it.

That's the main debate, usually: mere misunderstanding. (I'm not claiming no other issue ever comes up)

After I point out the main misunderstanding, sometimes (not always) some will insist they do understand the other side.

And usually I don't say "no, you don't understand them" or such (even though that's exactly the real situation most always), because that would descend into mere arguing.

So, I think it's good to go ahead and repeat Ephesians 2:8-10 for each thread, sometimes more than once, so that here and there someone will notice a verse of the 3 they haven't before, even if many already have all 3. Very helpful then is to point to John 15:1-17 (but not in the opaque ASV this site uses), to help us understand Ephesians 2:10.

I wonder if it would help to do something like the Orthodox, where they think of 'faith' as including works, the word itself. Like a living thing, like an organism.

Click to expand...

Some will always disagree for a time as they are blinded by the god of this world.
However, the poster I was speaking to only mentions the wrongness of doing good deeds in his post for heaven and inadvertently omits that faith/grace/a gift of God alone brings salvation. We are to do good works...no doubt.

throughfireytrial said:

Someone rated your post optimistic, but I don't see how it is optimistic at all. The entire Bible is so beautiful in that it helps us in our every need. But as to whether the entire Bible is written to us and for us look at Romans...
Romans 15:4-5:
Indeed, whatever was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that, through patient endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we would have hope. And may God, the source of patient endurance and encouragement, grant that you agree with one another in accordance with Christ Jesus
And let us all pray that we can have such agreement spoken of in the last line of these passages!

Click to expand...

romans to Philemon is a very optimistic view about what the lord has done to reconcile man to God. Man having to just stretch out his hands to receive that gift

Swan7 said:

Matthew 27:44
Both on either side of Jesus were reviling Him.
Now take a look at Luke 23:39-43

A change of mind had to have happened here. Salvation is a process and part of this involves a change of mind and heart. The thief then asks Jesus to remember him which He responds in love.

Water Baptism does not save. Jesus Christ saves and because they haven’t been able to receive the Holy Spirit because Jesus has yet to fulfil that and was then in the works being fulfilled by Him.

Sanctification is only done by Jesus Christ. We do not sanctify ourselves.

Click to expand...

How about the Grace of the Lord Jesus is so great that when the thief repented and declared Jesus Lord (yes he did) then Jesus saved him. There was no process sorry.

BCsenior said:

Of course, that's #1 ... but He and His Scriptures tell us there's more to it than that.

Now, like most others here, is this your excuse for NOT following Him,
and for NOT doing what He commands you to do?

Another good excuse for you would be, "Nothing else pertains to my salvation!",
and "Everything else must be referring to rewards!"

Sorry, no cigar! ... What you'll get is hot, but it won't be a cigar!

Click to expand...

You still haven't explained the thief on the cross next to Jesus mate.

BCsenior said:

Brother, thanks for your blessings and encouragement!
Do you agree that ONE of the major hindrances for believers
is they have been deceived by Satan through their churches
into believing in false doctrines from the pits of hell?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately it is as you say. Many church denominations exist, and many who claim to be Christians. Yet, only a remnant will be saved.

Why? The reason is that the faithful remnant overcome the world and remain true to their Lord Christ Jesus to the end, listening to and following Him. Consider Our Lord's instruction to the Seven Churches. Only a few will be saved.

Revelation 14:7-14 (NIV)
7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[a] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

1 Peter 1:13-16 (NIV)
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

fhansen said:

Actually many dos and don'ts have been outlined by the church for centuries, and the catechism is fairly well stocked with them from the commandments to "spiritual and corporal works of mercy", to name some. But the primary measure, which is the work and operation of the Spirit in us, is love, which acts for the good of others by its nature and which therefore is the right motivating factor for any work or act of righteousness that it may compel. Such that the Church teaches, quoting a 16th century believer, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

That's the "return", the increase, grace leading to more grace. Love is the definition of justice for man, the image of God we're to be transformed into, and the reason for acts done "for the least of these" in Matt 25 (acts done by people who didn't even know God had noticed) or the works God "prepared in advance" for them to do as per Eph 2:10.

Click to expand...

One of the things that possibly Catholics may just assume others would know is the particular way Catholics use the word "grace", which is more...extensive (maybe is the word) than many not having grown up Catholic would be accustomed to using the word. So that I'm aware you can write 'grace' in a sentence, and I know it's possible for us not growing up Catholic to not get exactly what you are saying. At this point, I'm having been exposed to the Catholic catechism section on Grace am unsure even how typical my own usage for the word is any longer, but as best I recall it meant (to me in the past) only just that God overlooked/forgot our sins for the sake of Christ, so that the word meant 'forbearance' if you like. See, for many, when you write 'grace' they would only take the meaning 'forbearance' or 'forgiveness' or 'mercy', alone, and not even slightly get that you might mean something else, something more, like God changing you to be able to do things you could not do otherwise. Your sentence: "But the primary measure, which is the work and operation of the Spirit in us, is love, which acts for the good of others by its nature and which therefore is the right motivating factor for any work or act of righteousness that it may compel. "
may not register fully, the meaning come across: that God is working through us, causing us to be able to do the "good works which God has prepared for us to do" (Eph 2:10) -- that these are 'works' -- fruits from the Vine (John chapter 15). In other words, you practically need to write several really clear sentences on just that.