On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel

BCsenior said:

Apology accepted.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, what do you think of the verses in the OP?
And how do they fit in with your post #19?
Be blessed.

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I view the verses as simply stating how man hardens their heart towards God until they choose to repent and come into the Fold rather than how you presented it as man not having the ability to choose or believe in the Gospel. We have the ability to believe yet some choose not to believe. This is due to the hardness of the heart and not because God chooses some and not others (Calvanism).

Example:
You said:• spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
All three scriptural references are all about the "hardened heart"..."For the hearts of this people have grown dull.""Their ears are hard of hearing"."their eyes they have closed".

Maria Billingsley said:

I view the verses as simply stating how man hardens their heart towards God until they choose to repent and come into the Fold rather than how you presented it as man not having the ability to choose or believe in the Gospel. We have the ability to believe yet some choose not to believe. This is due to the hardness of the heart and not because God chooses some and not others (Calvanism).

Example:
You said:• spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
All three scriptural references are all about the "hardened heart"..."For the hearts of this people have grown dull.""Their ears are hard of hearing"."their eyes they have closed".

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This makes salvation available to the self-righteous only. And not to poor sinners who cannot believe. God saves poor sinners who cannot believe turning them into repentant believers while sending the self-righteous to hell.

If they can't choose to believe, then missionary work is pointless. God can just reach out and make them believe. Any attempts to convince or even teach Gospel is merely sinful pride.

BCsenior said:

Man is …
• a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.
• spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
• unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness to him) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
• sees the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
• unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinth 3:14-16, 2 Corinth 4:3

Man is …
• blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
• controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11;
2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 2:2
• deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
• a captive of Satan (unto death) … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26, Ephesians 4:8

Man is …
• unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
• only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
• not allowed to choose; God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

Man is …
• born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13, Romans 4:17,
1 Corinthians 1:9-10, 1 Peter 4:6, Revelation 3:1
• a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2, Romans 8:6
• a slave of sin … John 8:34, Romans 6:12-22, Galatians 4:7
• an enemy of God … Romans 8:7

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You are right! Man on his own without the Word and the Spirit is simply fumbling around in spiritual darkness. Thankfully we have the Word and Christ, the annointed to show us the Way. So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 We are not left to our own ignorance but provided with God's precious gift, the Christ who is the Word. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.John 1:14 Remember too John was present at the transfiguration. So, we must grasp on to the truth revealed by Christ, know and do what he said. Then we can live the power filled life united with God and Christ, One as Jesus prayed in John 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee, that they may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Glory to God, what a wondrous world we live in! Walk in faith my friend looking to the unseen and not the seen. Know God with us, upholding all things by his righteous right hand and keep the word in your heart and mouth to overcome the world!

BCsenior said:

Man is …
• a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.
• spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
• unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness to him) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
• sees the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
• unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinth 3:14-16, 2 Corinth 4:3

Man is …
• blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
• controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11;
2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 2:2
• deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
• a captive of Satan (unto death) … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26, Ephesians 4:8

Man is …
• unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
• only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
• not allowed to choose; God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

Man is …
• born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13, Romans 4:17,
1 Corinthians 1:9-10, 1 Peter 4:6, Revelation 3:1
• a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2, Romans 8:6
• a slave of sin … John 8:34, Romans 6:12-22, Galatians 4:7
• an enemy of God … Romans 8:7

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Dave L said:

This makes salvation available to the self-righteous only. And not to poor sinners who cannot believe. God saves poor sinners who cannot believe turning them into repentant believers while sending the self-righteous to hell.

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Is this another cloaked TULIP debate thread? I do not agree with your statement. Merely choosing to believe is not a self-righteous act.

Maria Billingsley said:

Is this another cloaked TULIP debate thread? I do not agree with your statement. Merely choosing to believe is not a self-righteous act.

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But it says you are not sinful. Sin incapacitates the ability to discern the true Christ and believe in him.

BCsenior said:

Davey-boy, thou hast posted somethin' correct.
But, you haven't said HOW He saves them.

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First, Paul says he makes from the same lump vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. So his choice of whom he saves or damns is purely arbitrary. From here he considers the vessels of mercy atoned for in Christ before and after Calvary. To these he provides the new birth which enables them to discern spiritual truth and believe in Christ. Also because of this new nature, they love God and seek a holy lifestyle.

BCsenior said:

Really, my main focus (within and without the OP) is:
Satan's horrendous influence on non-believers
which (combined with their inherited sin nature) spells total disaster!

BTW, I only believe this because of the NT verses!
Which is the only reason I believe anything spiritual.
(BTW #2, I'm not an OT guy ... IMO, 90% of our focus should be on the NT)

IMO, his influence PREVENTS them from being able to choose life!
Hence, we have the appropriate word: inability.

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I see it differently. Satan already has non believers due to the hardness of their heart. Satan does not create the hardness we do by falling into deception. There are equally as many verses that Satan tempts and deceives the believers. This is why we must put on the full armor of God so as not to fall away and have our conscience seared. Warnings are abundant in scripture. We choose to sear our own conscience, Satan is there to deceive us into being cauterized.
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

BCsenior said:

Davey-boy may we STOP right here?
If I choose to eat an apple over a grapefruit, is my choice arbitrary?
Or, duz I have a good reason for choosing to eat the apple?

Oh, wait a minute ... you don't know what "arbitrary" means!
Okay, I get it.

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God's choice of whom he saves is purely arbitrary. All are wicked without any quality whatsoever.

Dave L said:

But it says you are not sinful. Sin incapacitates the ability to discern the true Christ and believe in him.

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But we are still sinners...so not sure how you can square that up.

Maria Billingsley said:

But we are still sinners...so not sure how you can square that up.

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“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

BCsenior said:

I'm not going to repeat my entire experience again, but as an evangelist
I promise you that ... Jesus told me He was sending me to the elect,
who have to hear/read the precious gospel before they can believe it, etc.

When the Holy Spirit convicts the elect to believe, they are able to believe.
And IMO, God enables the elect to believe.
This OP shows why the non-elect (unbelievers) are NOT able to believe.

This is just another rather unpopular spiritual Truth,
which is "somewhat hidden" in Scripture.

P.S. -- No one is ever willing to comment on my signature ...

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But, if they're "elect" already, you're unnecessary.

Dave L said:

God's choice of whom he saves is purely arbitrary. All are wicked without any quality whatsoever.

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Purely arbitrary, what a horribly evil "god" that would be...

BryanJohnMaloney said:

Purely arbitrary, what a horribly evil "god" that would be...

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Ironically, if Calvin was right about God as far as in sin and grace, most hate God with a passion and worship idols in his name today.

Dave L said:

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

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Well we know all Christians have the ability to sin as well as engage in sin. We also know that non believers have the ability to do righteous acts as well. This verse should be understood in context because 1 John 8 tells us a different perspective. IMO the verse you posted discusses sin that is habitually practiced without repentance.