Salvation is a process of co-operation between man and God

BCsenior · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
It is not a matter of "earning" salvation, it is a matter of active cooperation
with God in His salvation of you or refusing to cooperate.
We cannot initiate salvation, God must throw the life preserver to us,
but it is up to us, after He has reached to us, to cling to salvation or wriggle out of it.
We cannot earn it, but we can throw away this gift we cannot earn.

Bless you, dear one, for you understand what's happening!
But, I wonder IF anyone will believe you?

BCsenior · Nov 7, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
We have a covenant relationship with God. All the promises of God are conditional.

Thou too understands what's going on!
But, who, dear brother, will believe you?

BCsenior · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
So, you have never read the Epistles or Acts.

Yes, they have read them ... but they have NOT understood them!
They filter the Bible verses through their many deceptions, biases,
false doctrines, etc. -- and end up ignoring and/or rejecting spiritual Truth.

the last child · Nov 7, 2019

BCsenior said:
Because of brothers like Albion.

—just a quick side note guys—anyone can cut and paste pieces of anything, including Scripture, and fit it neatly together to make it say whatever they want. If the “cut” piece is take out of context, then it really kills everything called the integrity of original intent of the authorship....just saying...and that goes for anyone of course...

BCsenior · Nov 7, 2019

the last child said:
—just a quick side note guys—
anyone can cut and paste pieces of anything, including Scripture,
and fit it neatly together to make it say whatever they want.
If the “cut” piece is take out of context, then it really kills everything called the integrity
of original intent of the authorship....just saying...and that goes for anyone of course...

You wouldn't care to specify a particular instance, would you?
Or, do you think this (and life) is some kind of popularity contest?

jsimms615 · Nov 7, 2019

the problem with setting a particular standard of obedience in order to be considered saved is that you would never really be sure if you met that standard or not. In James letter he said "we all stumble in many ways". And in John's letter he said if we say we haven't sinned we call God a liar because he says we have. So, I would struggle with understanding if I met the standard to be saved since I can always point to places where I have failed.
Ultimately, I have to simply trust God that he is able to save me despite my many faults and thank God that I don't live under law but grace

throughfiierytrial · Nov 7, 2019

Guojing said:
the scripture you quoted was not saying works are required.

if you don’t want to clarify, I am fine too

OK, your reflection isn't there, so I'll help you along...
If God preordained good works for the saints as Ephesians declares, and we need not doubt Ephesians or any of the Bible, then good works are required. And before you mention exceptions found in Scripture, keep in mind two truths...God knows the heart and the passage in I Timothy 5:25...
In the same way, good works are also obvious, and the ones that are not obvious cannot stay hidden.
(They are not hidden from God, maybe from the world, but not from God...perhaps in some cases a little like the O. Henry short stories...Sincerely hoping this helps...it is not hard, reflect on it.)

Guojing · Nov 7, 2019

throughfireytrial said:
OK, your reflection isn't there, so I'll help you along...
If God preordained good works for the saints as Ephesians declares, and we need not doubt Ephesians or any of the Bible, then good works are required. And before you mention exceptions found in Scripture, keep in mind two truths...God knows the heart and the passage in I Timothy 5:25...
In the same way, good works are also obvious, and the ones that are not obvious cannot stay hidden.
(They are not hidden from God, maybe from the world, but not from God...perhaps in some cases a little like the O. Henry short stories...Sincerely hoping this helps...it is not hard, reflect on it.)

Let's get to the heart of the issue:

So if you see a Christian who on the surface don't do any good works, you would conclude he is not a Christian?

throughfiierytrial · Nov 7, 2019

Guojing said:
You can’t tell I am trying to make a point that ALL the bible cannot be directed to us?

Someone rated your post optimistic, but I don't see how it is optimistic at all. The entire Bible is so beautiful in that it helps us in our every need. But as to whether the entire Bible is written to us and for us look at Romans...
Romans 15:4-5:
Indeed, whatever was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that, through patient endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we would have hope. And may God, the source of patient endurance and encouragement, grant that you agree with one another in accordance with Christ Jesus
And let us all pray that we can have such agreement spoken of in the last line of these passages!

Halbhh · Nov 7, 2019

Albion said:
The problem with this variation on the theme called "works righteousness," the process of working ones way to salvation by performing well in this life on Earth, thus winning God's approval...

...is that it sounds great in theory but no one knows how many or which deeds are sufficient. Not even the churches which teach this doctrine can tell you.

And nothing that we can do really merits such a payoff as eternal life (!) anyway.

If anyone tries to quantify or list the necessary good deeds, it looks patently ridiculous to say that 15 times of helping old ladies across the street, plus $5,000 contributed to the Red Cross, plus something else is adequate to insure one's salvation...but if you happen to fall short in any category, you miss out. It's absurd.

When there is any debate on this topic, what happens is:

One side imagines (wrongly) that the other thinks just their works justify them -- that they are saved because they have earned it by their good works. Which isn't what they think or are saying.

The other side (in a debate on this all) imagines (wrongly) that their debate opponents imagine we don't have to be doing what Christ (and the epistles) said to us to do. Which isn't what they think or are saying.

Perhaps the best help of all for these debates really just hearing all 3 verses together of the most clear explanation in the NT? --

Ask: Who doesn't agree with Paul's inspired wording where it is all summed up fully? --

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

redleghunter said:

Because of Romans chapter 3? That's my guess.

Click to expand...

BCsenior said:

Believers are accountable to the Lord God who saved them!
Dozens of NT verses teach that their salvation is conditional.
After the Holy Spirit indwells them, they are sanctified (set apart)
for further sanctification unto holiness. During this process, believers
are required to co-operate with the Holy Spirit’s efforts to sanctify them,
and to overcome sin, Satan, persecution, etc. (see Revelation 3:21).
There is only space below for some of the topics and “proof text” verses …

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are obedient
This is about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands. Continuing obedience is
what “being faithful” means. True believers love Jesus, and want to follow and obey Him!
● “If you love Me, obey My commandments …
Those who accept My commandments and obey them are the ones who love Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will obey My word” (John 14:15-23)
Truly, does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus?

Believers are obedient IF they are NOT habitual sinners
● “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)
● “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past,
that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

Believers are righteous IF they practice righteousnesss
● “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.
He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin (habitually) …
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does
NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT love his brother.” (1 John 3:7-10)
Believers who are “faithful” will be obedient to Jesus’ commandments, and will practice righteousness!
● “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
● “… who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are repenting
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as being opposite sides of the same coin.
… John used believe since this term included all of these ideas.” (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
When they were first saved, believers were ONLY forgiven of their PAST sins …
● “… forgetting that they have been cleansed from their old sins.” (2 Peter 1:9)
“former sins” (NASB, ESV) --- “past sins” (NIV, HCSB) --- “old sins” (NKJV, NLT, RSV)
● “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Confession needs to be followed by repentance!
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness,
from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them” (The Applied New Testament Commentary)

Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
● “God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor … God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives … anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
● “God has given us everything we need to live a godly life … Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen … It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it, and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life”
(2 Peter 1:3, 1:10, 2:21)
● “God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
… work at living a holy life, for those who are NOT holy will NOT see the Lord.
… Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking.” (Hebrews 12:10-25)

Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!
Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!
● “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
should not perish but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:16)
● “… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you
continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)
● “It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

Click to expand...

the last child · Nov 7, 2019

BCsenior said:
IMO, as with Ephesians 2:7-8, this refers to our initial receiving of the Holy Spirit
when we were born-again from above! ... I.E. This refers to God's initial grace.
We were initially saved re: the blue ... NOT by any works we have done!
But, then our co-operation needs to begin (ref: dozens of NT verses).

BTW, if you read the OP, did you happen to notice the verse that says:
we were ONLY cleansed (forgiven) of our sins which were PRIOR to salvation.
Salvation is a process ... and it can be lost (ref: many NT verses).

Just curious to know what scriptural backing you have for your additive clause to all of your colorful highlighting: that some salvation is for “prior sins” and some is not and therefore unearned... and by scriptural backing I mean solid plain text from Jesus or an apostle stating specifically that when we are saved, only some of our sins are forgiven, but then the rest of our future sins must be atoned for, since that is what you are claiming.

Albion · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
It is not a matter of "earning" salvation, it is a matter of active cooperation with God in His salvation of you or refusing to cooperate. We cannot initiate salvation, God must throw the life preserver to us, but it is up to us, after He has reached to us, to cling to salvation or wriggle out of it. We cannot earn it, but we can throw away this gift we cannot earn.

It's one or the other. It cannot be both at once.

Either salvation depends on our efforts or it does not. Even if it only depends on our deeds 50% or some other such figure, it depends on us doing them. If your efforts are lacking (by that way of looking at the matter), then salvation is not going to happen.

BryanJohnMaloney · Nov 7, 2019

Albion said:
It's one or the other. It cannot be both at once.

Either salvation depends on our efforts or it does not. Even if it only depends on our deeds 50% or some other such figure, it depends on us doing them. If your efforts are lacking (by that way of looking at the matter), then salvation is not going to happen.

Do we initiate salvation or not?
Will our effort matter without the activity of God or not?
Can we be saved without God?

throughfiierytrial · Nov 7, 2019

Guojing said:
Let's get to the heart of the issue:

So if you see a Christian who on the surface don't do any good works, you would conclude he is not a Christian?

You have already declared the person a Christian. But that is not for us to judge...if they seem as though they are not doing good works we should suggest or encourage them to do so...as I already mentioned there are good works which are hid so it is not wise to be hasty in judgement...perhaps a preacher would be the better instrument in handling this matter. God says consider all others better than yourselves...
Philippians 2:3-4:
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty conceit, but in humility consider one another better than yourselves. Let each of you look carefully not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. -EHV

Albion · Nov 7, 2019

Halbhh said:
When there is any debate on this topic, what happens is:

One side imagines (wrongly) that the other thinks just their works justify them -- that they are saved because they have earned it by their good works. Which isn't what they think or are saying.

I don't think that is the case. If it were, those people would be saying that any pagan can be saved if he lives a life of charity and self-sacrifice, etc. In fact, such people are very few.

The other side (in a debate on this all) imagines (wrongly) that their debate opponents imagine we don't have to be doing what Christ (and the epistles) said to us to do. Which isn't what they think or are saying.

I agree. The people on this other side of the issue are not saying that either.

Albion · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
Do we initiate salvation or not?
Will our effort matter without the activity of God or not?
Can we be saved without God?

None of that is part of the issue. See my reply to halbhh just above this one.

BryanJohnMaloney · Nov 7, 2019

Guojing said:
Let's get to the heart of the issue:

So if you see a Christian who on the surface don't do any good works, you would conclude he is not a Christian?

I don't conclude. I discount the judgment of mere mortals, and I don't try to, as a mere mortal, judge others.

the last child · Nov 7, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
We should repent of our sins, but some people tend to 'add' their own sins, or stress certain sins over others. I still use the ten commandments as a baseline for the major sins we should be consciously trying to repent of. Point is, we shouldn't treat 'holiness' as a means of 'you have to be perfect to be accepted by God'. Nobody can be without sin. There's many sins a lot of us will commit every single day and never even be aware of, even in our thoughts and dreams; that is why God's grace is necessary.

And thanks but I did my pfp digitally lol. It was with a plastic tablet pen, so kind of similar to a pencil?

Please teach me your ways oh great artist. I have spent many hours breaking pencils trying to pretend I’m the second...to last...pencil...person... artist thingy but I am afraid I cou

BCsenior said:
You wouldn't care to specify a particular instance, would you?
Or, do you think this (and life) is some kind of popularity contest?

tbh I see you doing it all over the place but I didn’t want to point fingers. I was trying to be polite. As for the popularity contest, I have no idea what you are talking about. I was trying to assert a gentle neutral reminder to everyone to maintain the integrity of the Scriptural backing to their arguments, but be my guest if you wish to take the spotlight??? I guess?? Idk

His student · Nov 7, 2019

dzheremi said:
Why is cooperation with God in "Controversial Christian Theology"?

Albion said:
Cooperation isn't the issue.

Albion has it exactly right.

It isn't cooperation with God that's controversial Christian theology.

It's when and why we cooperate with God that is the issue.

Dzheremi - I remember the first time I dialoged with an Orthodox Christian here in the forum. He (or she?) said something like, "I started cooperating with God in 1997 and have been cooperating ever since".

I remember thinking, "how wonderful". I commented something to the effect that I was saved in 1958 and I have been cooperating as best I have been able ever since I was saved.

As the conversation progressed, I learned that he was "cooperating" with God in his personal and church life and he was hoping that he would be saved when all is said and done because of that cooperation.

He had the cart before the horse. I was cooperating because I was saved and he was cooperating in the hopes that he would be saved.

While the two positions may sound at first as if they are the same thing, the two positions are in fact diametrically opposed theologically.

There will be a great many who have "cooperated" with Him to the extent that they made Him "Lord" of their lives, cast out demons, and even done great miracles in His name throughout their life. But when they meet the Lord face to face and point to that cooperation with Him in hopes of salvation they will find that He never knew them.

They had gotten the cart before the horse and were not doing such supposedly wonderful things because He was working in them and because they were eternally grateful for His saving them. They were instead working on their own power in the hope of being saved someday.

Now - this kind of thing isn't only something I hear from Orthodox - far from it. I hear it all the time from Protestants, Catholics, cult members, and agnostics here in the forum. Even though he is quite prominent concerning this subject, BCsenior is but one of many.

There is a way that seem right to man and a way that many glean from scripture concerning what it takes to get saved and stay saved, even presented here in the forum in long posts with supporting scriptures - but the way thereof is death.

No man can know the heart of another. But if one has been around this kind of thing for as long as I have (some 60+ years as a born again Christians now) it doesn't take long for the red flags to go up.

Many tell me that they are cooperating with God to prove their faith and they will vigorously deny that they are trying to be saved by their works. But on closer examination it becomes readily apparent that they do not have true saving and justifying faith in the work of Christ at Calvary. There is no justifying faith to be proved.

Christ has, in all likelihood, never known them.

By all means - men should cooperate with God. But be sure it is God you are cooperating with and not the enemy of the simple gospel and of true saving faith.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 7, 2019

Albion said:
It's one or the other. It cannot be both at once.

Either salvation depends on our efforts or it does not. Even if it only depends on our deeds 50% or some other such figure, it depends on us doing them. If your efforts are lacking (by that way of looking at the matter), then salvation is not going to happen.

Albion,
I have to take you to task here. We are save by grace...it is a gift of God. When we come to faith we have passed over from death to life, but what does the book of Peter say should then happen?...
I Peter 2:1-3:
Therefore rid yourselves of all evil, all deceit, hypocrisy, jealousy, and all slander. Like newborn babies, crave the pure milk of the word so that by it you may grow up with the result being salvation. Certainly you have tasted that the Lord is good! -EHV

You pass the law bar exam and you are a lawyer, but w/o experience you are ineffectual.
You cross over from death to life b/c God chose you out of the world, but w/o works, the exercising of your Christianity, you are fruitless and you know that Jesus says such are destined for the fire.

AND, It is God in us causing us to will and to act according to His good purposes...Philippians
Therefore we can say that God is doing the Good Works, but we can take pride in that He chooses us to do so.
Galatians 6:4-5:
Let each person test his own work, and then he will take pride in regard to himself and not his neighbor. For each man will bear his own burden. -EHV
I Timothy 1:12:
I give thanks to the one who empowered me, namely, Christ Jesus our Lord, that he treated me as trustworthy, appointing me into his ministry. -EHV

So this is how we see that these two truths do not contradict. God rewards our works b/c we are obedient in carrying out all He moves us to do for His Kingdom. Remember Acts...
Acts 13:22:
After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

Oh, that we all had such a willing heart to serve God. -New International Version _ NIV, 2011

Salvation is a process of co-operation between man and God

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