Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

Neogaia777

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And why don't you get that your theology is outright wrong?

Prove it.

Determinism/Election to Salvation does not exist.

Yes it does, and it is all throughout scripture...

"it is God who wills", etc, etc, etc, "to or toward Salvation", etc, etc, etc, not us, etc, etc, etc...

God lets us choose

God chooses who is saved or not saved or not, and not us, etc...

but hey I am not going to insist that you repent and change.

You the one who needs to repent and change, and turn toward the Sole Sovereign God...

The "Father God" Jesus spoke of, etc...

Stay on your wide path.

And you can stay in your religious boxes, and dig your holes, and die in them.

God Bless!
 
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Mark Quayle

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Read what? All I see are a bunch of silly memes.
Not read. See. The first meme comes up: "Synergism" shows a grave, and a life preserver thrown to the dead. "Monergism" shows an erstwhile dead person being yanked alive out of their grave by a hook from above, quite obviously by nothing that person did.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If you're talking about the old "dead in sins" silliness, let me ask you: As you not dead to sin? Romans 6:11 Does this mean you are incapable of sinning? I wish! But, danged if I don't still sin every day, even though I'm dead to sin and in Christ, and secure in my salvation. So, why would you think someone dead in sin could not repent once he's shown how?
When I was under conviction, but not yet yielding, I certainly did make a lot of good spiritual choices. I chose not to indulge in sins that I could have indulged in, because I knew they were an offense to God. When God is working on someone, they are perfectly capable of yielding or continuing to harden their hearts, sometimes doing both in the same minute. In fact, Christians do that same thing even after being redeemed.
Silliness? Dead in sin is no joke. It is spiritually dead. No, I don't claim the spiritually regenerated never commit sin. But show me how the dead can do an alive thing. It is GOD who regenerates, quite apart from the regenerated persons' permission. Do they then turn to him? --of course they do!
 
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Mark Quayle

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You never sin? Lol. Yes, we can forfeit our salvation by apostasy. There would be no verses about falling away from the faith if you were correct.
I didn't say I never sin. That is simply foolish. If we "forfeit our salvation" we never were saved. It is a done deal. We either are, or are not. God doesn't go back on his word. My salvation does not depend on me. But if I forfeit what would have been mine, I never had it. "It is impossible...." Hebrews 6
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, I'm not a Dispensationalist. I'm just pointing out the context. It's important that we read everything in context. Not doing so is one of the reasons we have so many denominations. People come up with all kinds of stuff when they take stuff out of context.

Ephesians 1:3-12 is describing what God has done for the Jewish people. Notice in Ephesians 1 Paul draws a distinction between two groups of people. One group he refers to as we/us/our and the other group he refers to a you/your.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:1
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:3-14 KJV)


Paul is writing of two groups, us/we/our and you/your. He includes himself in the first group, us/we/our. He said this group was those who first trusted in Christ. A better translation would be before hoped. Who before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews. Also notice in verse 1.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1:1 KJV)

Notice Paul says, to the saints that are at Ephesus. Who are the saints? A little later in this same discussion he gives us more information.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (Eph. 2:11-13 KJV)

Here he tells us that the you/your group is the Gentiles. He also says that they were without Christ. Remember the group Paul was in is those who before hoped in the Christ. In this passage Paul has been making a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile. He said the you/your group is the Gentiles, but he goes on.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:19 KJV)

Here, Paul says that the you/your group are no longer strangers and foreigners as they were. Now they are fellow citizens with the saints. The contrast has been Jew and Gentile. The saints are the Jews.
Ok, I see (and agree with) what you were saying about it referring to the Jews (as opposed to the Gentiles he is writing to. So you are saying then, that only the Jews were predestined? I don't see how that follows, logically.
 
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Steven Beck

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I'm curious ... what do you think about Romans 9:14-24.

Some insist that it only applies to the Israelites.
But, why would God choose some for heaven and
some for hell ... and NOT do the same for the Gentiles?

Of course, we know that Paul warns the Gentiles elsewhere that
they can fall away and suffer the same fate as the Israelites did.

That is our Earthly purpose and has nothing to do with salvation. Did God have mercy on Job? Well yes but only having put him through a tough time for a while. Do not confuse earthly purpose with spiritual condition.
 
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Steven Beck

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The voice of the Holy Spirit is the still small voice (quiet usually).
The voice of one of Satan's demons is pushy, insistent, compelling, demanding, etc.

And neither of you know the voice of Satan nor the voice of the Holy Spirit. How did Satan deceive Eve? He used enough truth to convince her he knew what he was saying then dropped in the lie.
Satan uses the same strategy now as he did 6000 years ago. Tell enough truth to drop in the lie. He doesn't have to be pushy, insistent and demanding. What is determinism, just enough truth to drop in the lie although I must admit the twisting of bible verses is so blatant that the truth has gone out the window.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The voice of the Holy Spirit is the still small voice (quiet usually).
The voice of one of Satan's demons is pushy, insistent, compelling, demanding, etc.

LOL - Except satanic voices never tell you to obey God!

"Still small voice" in 1 Kings 19:12

Look up the Hebrew words. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

"voice" - comes from an unusual root. Most often translated "voice". Second most frequent translation is "sound". Also translated: proclaim, shout, thunder, thunder bolt, roar, loudly roar, scream, cry.

"small" - comes from a root that means: beat small, stamp small, small, powder, bruise, make dust, beat to pieces.

"still" - comes from a word that means: to silence, still, cut down, cut off, cease, forebear, tarry, wait. It gives the implication that one has become dumb / unable to speak. They have been "silenced".

So the Holy Spirit is a voice that humbles you, causes you to shut up, pay attention and listen. He is the voice of conviction and the voice of instruction. And He aint necessarily quiet about it.

So yes:

The voice of the Holy Spirit is easy to recognize. He's the "incessant to compel to complete surrender to God's sovereign will in the entirety of life" One.
 
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BCsenior

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That is our Earthly purpose and has nothing to do with salvation.
Did God have mercy on Job?
Well yes but only having put him through a tough time for a while.
Do not confuse earthly purpose with spiritual condition.
Folks, this is Beck's response to being asked about Romans 9:14-24.
We've got ourselves a real live one here!
Anyone got a white jacket we can use?
 
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The Righterzpen

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I still don't think you get it. We are all in a spiritual battle. But especially when we are first under conviction. Why does Paul tell us to put on the armor of God? Because if we cease praying, Satan certainly Does work in us.

Again though; (like I just said) being "under conviction" is not Satan.

1 Peter 5:8

Well, let's take a look at the verse.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

"Sober" is also translated "watch" and "vigilant" is also translated "awake".

"Adversary" is made up of two words "on account of" and "one who brings evidence". The second word is a court term. We would say "prosecutor".

"walk about" is also translated as "occupy". (To be preoccupied with.)

"Devour" is composed of two words "according to" and "drink".

So, stay awake while keeping watch because your prosecutor the devil is preoccupied with seeking who he can consume accordingly.

Now "accordingly consume" is probably in reference to whom he can accuse of sin before the law.

So the instruction seems to be to stay awake while keeping watch, because of the one who accuses you of guilt before the law, seeks to consume you by accusing you of sin.

There's a clever phrase I once heard: When the devil reminds you of your past; remind him of his future!

The way of dealing with this issue is to be confessing your sin and repenting. That's what being diligent has to do with the devil trying to devour you.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Again though; (like I just said) being "under conviction" is not Satan.
For this, AMEN! Those under hasatan fill happy@! (having been 'released' from the conviction /need / responsibility of doing what is right. Like children all of a sudden without a baby sitter - like mice when the cat is away, THEY PLAY! They have fun, they get giddy/ happy/ and eventually die.

Conviction is important, a gift from the Creator Yahuweh, a gift to help us be obedient to Jesus,
and chosing to ignore it or suppress it (a seared conscience),
is dangerous, and may lead to much harm and even death.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Silliness? Dead in sin is no joke. It is spiritually dead. No, I don't claim the spiritually regenerated never commit sin. But show me how the dead can do an alive thing. It is GOD who regenerates, quite apart from the regenerated persons permission. Do they then turn to him? --of course they do!

The human will is subordinate to the act of being regenerated. @renniks doesn't seem to understand that.
 
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The Righterzpen

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and chosing to ignore it or suppress it (a seared conscience),
is dangerous, and may lead to much harm and even death.

I studied the "seared conscience" once. It's interesting because it's spoken about in reference to those who claim to be obedient to God but they are hypocrites. It was fascinating. It's not a sociopathic seared conscience as if "I can commit murder because there is no God and I'm not accountable". It would be more along the lines of "abusing grace" as lasciviousness.

They are self deceived. I can do this because it's "covered by the blood" / "I said the sinners prayer" / "I can just exercise my free will and turn back to God later".

It's that type of thing.
 
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Mark Quayle

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That is our Earthly purpose and has nothing to do with salvation. Did God have mercy on Job? Well yes but only having put him through a tough time for a while. Do not confuse earthly purpose with spiritual condition.
"Bore with great patience the objects of his wrath" sounds like this earthly existence? Yes, it is while we are here that he is patient, but "the objects of his wrath" does not refer to what he will do to them here, short of hardening them further, perhaps.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I studied the "seared conscience" once. It's interesting because it's spoken about in reference to those who claim to be obedient to God but they are hypocrites. It was fascinating. It's not a sociopathic seared conscience as if "I can commit murder because there is no God and I'm not accountable". It would be more along the lines of "abusing grace" as lasciviousness.

They are self deceived. I can do this because it's "covered by the blood" / "I said the sinners prayer" / "I can just exercise my free will and turn back to God later".

It's that type of thing.
Off topic side issue: I see this as having an effect concerning the accepting the mark of the Beast. If a person has the habit of sin, though he is technically savvy about the mark, what makes him suppose he is even capable of recognizing it until it is too late, or worse, of avoiding it even if he does recognize it?
 
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Mark Quayle

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And neither of you know the voice of Satan nor the voice of the Holy Spirit. How did Satan deceive Eve? He used enough truth to convince her he knew what he was saying then dropped in the lie.
Satan uses the same strategy now as he did 6000 years ago. Tell enough truth to drop in the lie. He doesn't have to be pushy, insistent and demanding. What is determinism, just enough truth to drop in the lie although I must admit the twisting of bible verses is so blatant that the truth has gone out the window.

Does determinism, to you, rule out choice? Free agency? How do you define free agency? To me, any knowledgeable, reasonable, logical description of it admits to influences such as bias, desires, etc etc. God is in control of that. Thus, Reformed theology does not rule out such a description of free will. Yet, thus also, determinism is not ruled out.

It seems to me you attribute too strong an intrinsic substance to our existence. Without him, we are nothing.
 
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Butch5

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Ok, I see (and agree with) what you were saying about it referring to the Jews (as opposed to the Gentiles he is writing to. So you are saying then, that only the Jews were predestined? I don't see how that follows, logically.

What I'm saying is that that passage in Ephesians 1 is talking about the Jews. But, yes the Jews were predestined, the Gentiles weren't. When Paul speaks of the Jews being adopted He's referring back to promises that God made to Abraham. God told Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation and that he would receive all of the land that he could see. He promised the land to Abraham and his seed. Right there Israel was predetermined or predestined. Paul said in Romans that the adoption pertains to the Jews.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:4-5 KJV)

The word pertains isn't in the Greek text. It literally says, 'who are Israelites; to whom the adoption.' God did adopt Israel.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

This is what Paul is talking about. The Gentiles weren't predestined, it was Israel. The Gentiles can become a part of the promises by becoming a part of Israel. Paul said in Romans 11 that the Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree. Here he turns his attention from the Jews to the Gentiles and begins his address to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;1
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Rom. 11:13-21 KJV)

So, here Paul is telling the Gentile believers in the church at Rome that they have been grafted in. They've been grafted into Israel. In Galatians Paul tells the Galatians that if they are in Christ they are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the Promise.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:29 KJV)
 
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Butch5

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Folks, this is Beck's response to being asked about Romans 9:14-24.
We've got ourselves a real live one here!
Anyone got a white jacket we can use?

If we look at that passage in context we see that it is addressed to the the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome. It's Paul's explanation of how the promises that God made to Abraham have not failed. It's not about God choosing who will saved.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (Rom. 9:6 KJV)
 
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