Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

gradyll said:

thanks for your reply, I don't have time to reply to everything, I simply did a word search for sanctification and only found one scripture that mentioned salvation in the same verse as sanctification, as you said we are saved by both, however only one verse said that we were out of all those you posted. So for one, that should tell you something. The fact that more scripture does not state that we are saved by our sanctification, should reveal that this is an error. Secondly I want to include a commentary on the one verse that was mentioned. I don't fully agree with commentary use, however it does show an alternative explanation, I am not saying the explanation is accurate, I am just saying that it is different:

In reference to the one verse that mentioned both salvation and sanctification in one verse: 2 Thess 2:13
"This is the only use of salvation (sōtēria) in this epistle. However, in 1 Thess 5:8–9 sōtēriaclearly refers to salvation from the Tribulation. That fits the context as well. While it is true that Paul has just spoken of the eternal condemnation of the unbelievers who are persecuting the Thessalonians (v 12), the preceding context deals primarily with the fact that the unbelievers will go through the Tribulation.

This salvation requires two things. First, the Holy Spirit will set believers apart (sanctification by the Spirit). This likely refers to positional sanctification. That is the divine side of salvation from the Tribulation. The human side is belief in the truth. This is in contrast to v 12 with its reference to those “who did not believe the truth.” All who believe the truth will escape the Tribulation.

Believers were called to this sanctification by the apostle’s (our) gospel. The result was not only that believers escape the Tribulation, but positively for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. All believers Matt 16:24–28; 1 Pet 4:13)."-Grace New Testament Commentary

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Also, in Thessalonians: Paul does not say that you do not have to worry about his current instruction (i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:13) because they are for a future generation of believers during the end times only. He never says that to the Thessalonians. If you believe he says that, then please quote the verse. Paul is talking in the present tense to the Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Yes, Paul does refer to the end times in 2 Thessalonians 2, but his instruction on salvation is still being spoken to them in the here and now.

Besides, the Bible does not have to conform to your way of thinking in order for it to be true. There are plenty of verses I provided that clearly show that you need to live holy after we are saved by God's grace. For the children of the Kingdom can be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 8:13). At the judgment: Christ will send forth his angels and gather out of his kingdom all who offend and who work iniquity. So just because somebody professes to be in the kingdom and they were even once saved by His grace, does not mean they are going to remain in the kingdom at the Judgment. The angels of Jesus will cast all who work iniquity into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Please read the sobering words of Jesus in Matthew 13:41-43).

gradyll said:

thanks for your reply, I don't have time to reply to everything, I simply did a word search for sanctification and only found one scripture that mentioned salvation in the same verse as sanctification, as you said we are saved by both, however only one verse said that we were out of all those you posted. So for one, that should tell you something. The fact that more scripture does not state that we are saved by our sanctification, should reveal that this is an error. Secondly I want to include a commentary on the one verse that was mentioned. I don't fully agree with commentary use, however it does show an alternative explanation, I am not saying the explanation is accurate, I am just saying that it is different:

In reference to the one verse that mentioned both salvation and sanctification in one verse: 2 Thess 2:13
"This is the only use of salvation (sōtēria) in this epistle. However, in 1 Thess 5:8–9 sōtēriaclearly refers to salvation from the Tribulation. That fits the context as well. While it is true that Paul has just spoken of the eternal condemnation of the unbelievers who are persecuting the Thessalonians (v 12), the preceding context deals primarily with the fact that the unbelievers will go through the Tribulation.

This salvation requires two things. First, the Holy Spirit will set believers apart (sanctification by the Spirit). This likely refers to positional sanctification. That is the divine side of salvation from the Tribulation. The human side is belief in the truth. This is in contrast to v 12 with its reference to those “who did not believe the truth.” All who believe the truth will escape the Tribulation.

Believers were called to this sanctification by the apostle’s (our) gospel. The result was not only that believers escape the Tribulation, but positively for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. All believers Matt 16:24–28; 1 Pet 4:13)."-Grace New Testament Commentary

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Believing the gospel is believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

However, you not only have to believe the gospel (Which is the entrance gate to salvation), but you also have to OBEY the gospel, too.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

What is obeying the gospel?

Obedience to the gospel is explained for us in Romans 6:3-4, and in Romans 6:6-7.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4).

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:24-27).

BNR32FAN said:

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If there is a condition to salvation it cannot be received until that condition is met. The scriptures say several times that we must endure to the end to receive eternal life.

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I believe John spoke of those who had an assurance of salvation.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13).

For we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). Having the Son (or knowing Him) is a part of having eternal life (1 John 5:12).

Anyways, I believe there are verses or words in Scripture that allude to future salvation as being in reference to "Glorification." Glorification is when GOD takes us home (i.e. He saves us by bring us home into His kingdom). But as you said, we must meet the conditions. I believe these conditions are both Justification, and Sanctification. For we cannot deny God's grace (Luke 18:9-14), and we cannot deny in living holy for the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Some try to falsely make salvation all about Justification, and others try to make salvation all about Sanctification (When in reality: We need a healthy balance of both in their proper order).

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe John spoke of those who had an assurance of salvation.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13).

For we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). Having the Son (or knowing Him) is a part of having eternal life (1 John 5:12).

Anyways, I believe there are verses or words in Scripture that allude to future salvation as being in reference to "Glorification." Glorification is when GOD takes us home (i.e. He saves us by bring us home into His kingdom). But as you said, we must meet the conditions. I believe these conditions are both Justification, and Sanctification. For we cannot deny God's grace (Luke 18:9-14), and we cannot deny in living holy for the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Some try to falsely make salvation all about Justification, and others try to make salvation all about Sanctification (When in reality: We need a healthy balance of both in their proper order).

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Sanctification cannot begin until after justification. We cannot become a new creation without the baptism of the Spirit and any works we do prior to justification are tainted by our sins and filthy rags in God’s presence.

BNR32FAN said:

Sanctification cannot begin until after justification. We cannot become a new creation without the baptism of the Spirit and any works we do prior to justification are tainted by our sins and filthy rags in God’s presence.

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Well, of course, we cannot enter the Sanctification Process without first entering the Justification Process, my friend.

Actually, when I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

BNR32FAN said:

When we are justified we receive the hope of eternal life which we don’t actually receive until we either die or Jesus returns.

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Please read Romans 3, 4 and 5. We are justified by faith. Rom 3:22-30, ch 4 and 5:1. We HAVE (possess) eternal life on the basis of believing. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13. Therefore, justification and eternal life are given at the same time.

“since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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The "hope" laid up for you in heaven isn't heaven, but what's there. Like rewards.

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe John spoke of those who had an assurance of salvation.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13).

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Correct. In fact, he was giving them assurance of their salvation by the fact that they possessed eternal life on the basis of believing in Christ.

gradyll said:

Sir there was no distinction made in the post I am referring to, that is, a distinction between salvation, and the receiving of salvation (at the end of life). And this would be an arbitrary distinction as well, as most of the scripture refer to salvation starting instantaneously when we believe.

there are many things that accompany salvation that happen the moment you believe:

We become a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

We become a priest of God. 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

We are reconciled to God. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

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What happens if one of His sheep should wander away from Him and become lost?

Do the lost need salvation?


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Said the guy who ignored what Jesus so plainly taught us, which is that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So don't lecture me about ignoring what Jesus taught.

That's what hypocrites do. All the time."

Don't change the subject. You talk about my ignoring what Jesus "so plainly taught us", yet you have brazenly rejected what He taught about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish. You are convinced (deluded) that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

There is NO connection between CAN and SHALL NEVER. They are totally opposite.

btw, I never called you any names. I pointed out what hypocrites DO.

If the shoe fit, wear it.


No, it's called being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14.

And you have YET to prove from Scripture that a sealed believer can be unsealed or lose their position in Christ.

Your theories are man made.


What Jesus said wasn't literal. He was speaking figuratively.


All about fellowship, for the purpose of bearing fruit.

Since you have made it very clear that you vehemently reject what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, why should anyone listen to anything you post?

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More opinion while dodging my question.

So you are teaching people that we don’t have to remain “in Christ” to remain saved?


As long as you remain in Christ you have eternal life, which is “knowing Him”.


If you don’t remain in Him, then you will be cast into the fire and burned.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.1 John 3:24


They way a person can lose their eternal life is by being removed from Christ.


In Christ = Eternal Life

Removed from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned




JLB

gradyll said:

sir again, lets get back to basics, can you provide a specific verse where sanctification and salvation are in the same verse? If it was such an important topic in the bible don't you think it would be mentioned more? After all issues dealing with salvation are not to be confusing or scattered wide and thin, if it is a topic as important as salvation, it should be mentioned at least half a dozen times, minimum. The verses you mention do not specifically address sanctification as a word, and salvation in the same sentence or two, so it is very hard to prove that sanctification is part of salvation. Justification and salvation on the other time, is mentioned many times in the same verses.

Titus 3:7, Romans 8:30, romans 5:9, Galatians 3:11, Romans 4:3-25, Romans 4:5, romans 3:24-26

there is seven passages where justification is mentioned in the same verse as salvation, can you provide seven verses where sanctification is mentioned in the same verse as salvation? I don't think you can.

here is another little gem I found in this study:

Galatians 2:21 ESV
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Here grace is set apart from law, in another verse grace is set apart from works, so now we know that grace is diametrically opposed salvifically to works and the law.

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Why does God have to say it 7 times in order for it to be relevant? Isn’t once enough?

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:2-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

gradyll said:

sir the lost I believe talk about anyone who strays from Christ, to some it could be apostacy, to others it could be simply being in bondage to sin, and yet to others it could be compromising in any one of millions of ways, so I am not sure exactly how to answer this.

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I agree.

gradyll said:

sir again, lets get back to basics, can you provide a specific verse where sanctification and salvation are in the same verse? If it was such an important topic in the bible don't you think it would be mentioned more? After all issues dealing with salvation are not to be confusing or scattered wide and thin, if it is a topic as important as salvation, it should be mentioned at least half a dozen times, minimum. The verses you mention do not specifically address sanctification as a word, and salvation in the same sentence or two, so it is very hard to prove that sanctification is part of salvation. Justification and salvation on the other time, is mentioned many times in the same verses.

Titus 3:7, Romans 8:30, romans 5:9, Galatians 3:11, Romans 4:3-25, Romans 4:5, romans 3:24-26

there is seven passages where justification is mentioned in the same verse as salvation, can you provide seven verses where sanctification is mentioned in the same verse as salvation? I don't think you can.

here is another little gem I found in this study:

Galatians 2:21 ESV
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Here grace is set apart from law, in another verse grace is set apart from works, so now we know that grace is diametrically opposed salvifically to works and the law.

Click to expand...

In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 saying that God has chosen us by both a belief in the truth (Justification), and the Sanctification of the Spirit, we know that James 2:24 says we are justified by both faith (Justification) and works (Sanctification); And James said previously that a faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Meaning, a dead faith cannot save anyone.

Jesus says in John 5:24,
"Truly truly I say to you, he who hears my words and believes on him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into damnation, but is escaped from death to life." (NMB).

So Jesus here is saying we have to HEAR (obey) his words, and we have to believe in Him to have everlasting life. Believing is Justification, and hearing (obeying) the words of Jesus is Sanctification. For Acts says that any soul who does not hear that prophet (Jesus) will be utterly destroyed (See: Acts of the Apostles 3:23); Also compare with Matthew 7:26-27, and then see Matthew 7:23.

So in conclusion:

There is 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:24, and John 5:24. That's three verses that teach both Justification, and Sanctification are for salvation.

gradyll said:

1 thess 2:13 is talking about sanctification that deals with belief of the truth not works -see verse 13. The other verse you show refers to post conversion.

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“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

CONTEXT:



Verse 12 that says "they... who believed not the truth" is contrasted with "belief of the truth" in verse 13. Verse 12 that says "had pleasure in unrighteousness" is contrasted with "the sanctification of the Spirit" in verse 13 (compare with Romans 8:13).

Verses 16-17 repeats the grace (Justification), and works (Sanctification) theme. It says Jesus has given us a good hope through grace (Justification), and that He may establish us unto every good work (Sanctification).