Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.

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mkgal1

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The author of the Book of Hebrews said we have not come to Mount Sinai, but instead to the New Covenant in the passage below.
True. But the two covenants dwelled together for about 40 years (just as Sarah and Hagar were also living together for a time).

God was the giver of both covenants, and His purpose for humanity in giving each of the covenants was that people would trust and rely on Him (alone) for salvation. The New Covenant isn't a "new and revised plan because the old plan failed". The purpose of the old covenant was to foreshadow the new, as the purpose of the new was to fulfill the old.

The old covenant saints were, and we ourselves are justified in the same one Way (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12). There is one Way of justification, as there is one God, one True church (the People of God) and one Eternal Covenant.

I'm not certain who first said this quote, but it's often repeated that: "The old covenant was the New Covenant concealed, and the New Covenant is the old covenant revealed." ETA: that was Augustine that said that, I believe, according to this article: Ancient Promises by R.C. Sproul
 
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BABerean2

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Something would have to be present in order to cast it out - would it not? Otherwise.....the author of Hebrews would be writing that in the past tense (and - as in the times AFTER the destruction of the Temple - there'd be no option to even go back to the Law of Moses).

Your argument above is proven wrong by those going back to animal sacrifices this year.

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mkgal1

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If you mean both covenants were in effect between Calvary and 70 AD, Galatians 4:24-31, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24 say otherwise.

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What was used (what Law).....was it Roman secular Law or Old Covenant religious Law that was used to condemn Stephen (recorded in Acts 7:54-60); Peter and John (Acts 4:3-22, 5:17-42) and any members of the Way/the followers of Christ (Acts 8:3; Acts 9:1-2); and Paul (Acts 14:19-20)?

Also....look at the tense used in Hebrews 10:11; and v 14 (the sanctification process was not over yet at this time):

Hebrews 10:11 ~ Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Hebrews 10:14 ~ ....by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 
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BABerean2

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Also....look at the tense used in Hebrews 10:11; and v 14 (the sanctification process was not over yet at this time):

Based on your logic, since sacrifices are going on today, it must not be over at this time.


It was either finished at Calvary, or it was not.


.
 
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mkgal1

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Your argument above is proven wrong by those going back to animal sacrifices this year.

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Where was Hagar living when Sarah told Abraham to "cast out the bond woman"? Was she *with* Sarah and Abraham......or was she already in the wilderness at that time? One doesn't cast out what's already gone.

Just because people from a completely separate religion from ours are resorting back to animal sacrifices (a practice that is NOT exclusive to Judaism roots anyway - it's a part of just about all ancient cultures as a way to appease gods) does not mean it's related to the foundation of our faith in any way.
 
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mkgal1

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Based on your logic, since sacrifices are going on today, it must not be over at this time.


It was either finished at Calvary, or it was not.
No - that's NOT based on my logic at all. Modern Orthodox Judaism is NOT related to our religion. What practices they choose to follow....it's all on them......it's their idea, not God's.

I don't understand why you're so dogmatic about this. Where do you get the idea that it's "finished at Calvary or it was not"? You do realize that there was a time that Jesus had said He'd finished all His Father had sent Him to do even before He went to the cross.....right?

John 17:4 ~ "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."
 
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mkgal1

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When it was "finished" in Exodus.

When Israel came out of Egypt they wandered the wilderness for 40 years of testing prior to reaching the Promised Land. The apostle Paul draws on that imagery:

1 Cor. 10:6-11, "Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come."


When was It Finished in Leviticus?

Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, was the culmination of the 40 days season of Teshuvah. According to tradition the 40 days represent Moses’ ascension and stay on the mountain before his return from receiving the Law.

Teshuvah is associated with the 40 day period of Moses ascending to the mountain with God, and then coming back down. Then he found them worshiping the golden calf and smashed the Ten Commandments as a sign that they had already broken the covenant. He then dealt with them by separating those who worship Baal from those who worshiped God.

That was a type of Jesus ascending to the Father on the Mountain of the Lord in the New Covenant and subsequently coming on the clouds with judgment at the end of a 40 year transitional generation (Mt. 16:27-28, Mt. 24). That Jewish generation was to trust Christ's words by fleeing to the mountains when they saw the Roman armies approaching. Or by not trusting him in this New Covenant, the apostate Jews would remain in the city and be destroyed by Rome. Those who did not believe, despite Jesus' extraordinary efforts to convince them, were blotted out. Or to use Jesus' other analogy, He separated the wheat from the tares.


When was the Day of Atonement Finished?

Jesus fulfilled the Passover at his death, then fulfilled Pentecost 50 days later by the outpouring of the Spirit. But when was the Day of Atonement fulfilled in the earth like the others?

The imagery of the priest going into the tabernacle or the temple, was that though the priest entered into the Holy of Holies and placed the blood on the mercy seat, it wasn't until the priest came back out and pronounced the blessing that the PROCESS OF ATONEMENT was "finished". Of course they were forgiven, accepted, loved, etc before he came "out". But notice what wasn't finished.

So far, Jesus said it was finished regarding his earthly apostolic "sent" mission. Then he cried that it was finished at the cross as he died. Yet, it still wasn't finished because he had not yet applied his blood to the mercy seat of heaven, and He had not come back out of heaven separated from sin, to announce the clean slate on the Day of Atonement.

This is what the author of Hebrews is alluding to in 9:6-10,

Hebrews 9:6-10 ~ Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the FIRST PART of the tabernacle, performing the services. But into the SECOND PART the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It was SYMBOLIC for the PRESENT TIME in which both gifts and sacrifices ARE offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed UNTIL THE TIME OF REFORMATION.

Clearly, in the days preceding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the author of Hebrews says that the symbolism of a still standing system indicated that the way into the Holy of Holies was not yet made AT THEIR PRESENT TIME. The first part was opened (the altar), but the second part, only Jesus, the Great High Priest had passed through... until the time of reformation (the destruction of the entire religious Jewish system). We know this because he says the old covenant was fading away and was about to be removed (Heb. 8:13).
 
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mkgal1

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What was used (what Law).....was it Roman secular Law or Old Covenant religious Law that was used to condemn Stephen (recorded in Acts 7:54-60); Peter and John (Acts 4:3-22, 5:17-42) and any members of the Way/the followers of Christ (Acts 8:3; Acts 9:1-2); and Paul (Acts 14:19-20)?
I noticed there was no answer to this question.

If something is gone (cast out) it certainly has no effect at all (like if I tossed out an old TV from my house, for example, because it didn't have SmartTV apps). But....it seems that, based on Scripture, the Old Covenant Law WAS being used (not properly.....but if my TV had been taken to the dump.....cast out.....I couldn't use it in ANY way at all).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I noticed there was no answer to this question.
If something is gone (cast out) it certainly has no effect at all (like if I tossed out an old TV from my house, for example, because it didn't have SmartTV apps). But....it seems that, based on Scripture, the Old Covenant Law WAS being used (not properly.....but if my TV had been taken to the dump.....cast out.....I couldn't use it in ANY way at all).
Indeed.
Much like that Court of the Priest in Herod's Temple shown in Reve 11:2..........

How many preterists/amills view 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18, 19 and can viewing 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation still be considered orthodox preterism?

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY


Genesis 3:24 And He is casting-Out the 'adam,..............

[LXX] Gene 3:24 kai ecebalen/#1544 01644 garash ton Adam

Galatian 4:30
But what/any is saying the Scripture 'be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628) the maid-servant and the son of her, for not no shall be tenanting/inheriting the son of the maid-servant with the son of the freeone.

Revelation 11:2
and the Court/fold outside of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628)! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring it, that it was given to the nations, and the holy City they shall be trampling forty and two months


NRC1RMycmijxrQiU4xPqnD1o.jpeg


Which Sanctuary and Court are being measured in Revelation 11
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  1. *
    1st century Herod's Temple/Sanctuary
    3 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. A future Jewish Temple/Sanctuary
    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. Both
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. None of the above
    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  5. I don't know right now
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. I have never thought about it
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Other
    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
 
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mkgal1

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I don't understand why you're so dogmatic about this. Where do you get the idea that it's "finished at Calvary or it was not"? You do realize that there was a time that Jesus had said He'd finished all His Father had sent Him to do even before He went to the cross.....right?

John 17:4 ~ "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."
This question also wasn't answered.
 
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BABerean2

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Who is "ignoring" Scripture?

Why not finish the REST of Hebrews 8:13?

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By saying, a new [ covenant ], He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.
......at least you admit you're not believing (or are ignoring) certain parts of Scripture.



Will the Old Covenant come back into effect if modern Jews rebuild a temple, and renew the animal sacrifices strictly according to the Old Testament methods?

.
 
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mkgal1

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Will the Old Covenant come back into effect if modern Jews rebuild a temple, and renew the animal sacrifices strictly according to the Old Testament methods?

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No. It disappeared in 70 A.D. it fully served its purpose by then.
 
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mkgal1

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I don't understand why you're so dogmatic about this. Where do you get the idea that it's "finished at Calvary or it was not"? You do realize that there was a time that Jesus had said He'd finished all His Father had sent Him to do even before He went to the cross.....right?

John 17:4 ~ "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."

I noticed there was no answer to this question.

If something is gone (cast out) it certainly has no effect at all (like if I tossed out an old TV from my house, for example, because it didn't have SmartTV apps). But....it seems that, based on Scripture, the Old Covenant Law WAS being used (not properly.....but if my TV had been taken to the dump.....cast out.....I couldn't use it in ANY way at all).
This question still remains unanswered.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Is there anything in the Book of Daniel about the Church not being "fully grown" until 70 AD?

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well known that 1st century apostate Jerusalem = Egypt (Rev 11:8)
  • Jesus driven out of the city = Exodus
  • resurrection = red sea crossing salvific miracle
  • Pentecost = Moses receives physical law written on stone in wilderness
  • 30-70 AD = wilderness wanderings
  • destruction of Jerusalem and Judea = fall of Jericho & Ai & conquest of Canaan
  • 1st-4th centuries of AF,ECF = Judges
  • Constantine, Nicea = David
 
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BABerean2

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well known that 1st century apostate Jerusalem = Egypt (Rev 11:8)
  • Jesus driven out of the city = Exodus
  • resurrection = red sea crossing salvific miracle
  • Pentecost = Moses receives physical law written on stone in wilderness
  • 30-70 AD = wilderness wanderings
  • destruction of Jerusalem and Judea = fall of Jericho & Ai & conquest of Canaan
  • 1st-4th centuries of AF,ECF = Judges
  • Constantine, Nicea = David

Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years because they failed to follow God's will.

God's Son completed His Father's will at Calvary.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

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BABerean2

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No. It disappeared in 70 A.D. it fully served its purpose by then.

Why did God rip the temple veil in half on the day Christ was sacrificed?

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


Why did the author of the Book of Hebrews quote from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then say there is "now" no more offering for sin?

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years because they failed to follow God's will.

God's Son completed His Father's will at Calvary.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

.
spiritual victory in principle takes a while to play out physically in practice?

if that was total victory, why didn't Pilate, Herod and emperor Tiberius convert?
 
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Erik Nelson

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Why did God rip the temple veil in half on the day Christ was sacrificed?

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


Why did the author of the Book of Hebrews quote from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then say there is "now" no more offering for sin?

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

.
2 Corinthians 3 (20 years after the crucifixion)

The Glory of the New Covenant
(Exodus 34:29-35)

7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! 10Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away.
 
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BABerean2

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2 Corinthians 3 (20 years after the crucifixion)

The Glory of the New Covenant
(Exodus 34:29-35)

7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! 10Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away.


2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
2Co 3:11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
2Co 3:12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
2Co 3:13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


.
 
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