When Jesus took our sins on the cross, did he become a sinner?

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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Jesus never became a sinner at any time. He did not take on our sins upon Himself. He paid the eternal penalty for sin for every single person who exercised faith in Him past, present and future, in the three hours from the time He was nailed to the cross until when He died. Then it was finished, and He went to Paradise along with the penitent thief.

Therefore it was the penalty and the wrath of God He took upon Himself. Only Jesus could do that in just three hours to experience the eternal wrath of God for every sinner who receives Christ. This is because He is an eternal person. No other person could have accomplished it.

PrettyboyAndy said:

“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

In these two verses, it says he bore our sins, and he had no sins but he have sin for us?

The issue I have with propitiation and substitutionary atonement is we are the sinner, for Christ to pay for our sins he must bear them or our sin must be transferred to him in order for him to pay them for us. So what happens to the Holiness of Christ in that exchange/transfer?

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The fact that He rose from the dead shows us that he himself remained innocent, despite the punishment for sin that He took upon himself on our behalf.

2 Corinthians 5:21 ►

New International Version
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


--
he took on our sin so that when he died the power of our sin died with him...when he rose from the dead he conquered the power of our sin


so he had to take on our sin so that he could conquer our sin

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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Jesus lived teaching, correcting and rebuking people’s sins. Sinners did not want to change their wicked ways. They wanted to kill him instead.

I could not say Jesus became sin. Am not sure what the writer was trying to communicate. I am imperfect. I can not say Jesus took away all my imperfections 2000 yrs ago.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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No, if he had any sin he would have died for his own sins, not ours. Paul says he became sin for us which according to Romans five, means; God imputed Adam's sin to us (we didn't actually sin). Then God Imputed our sin to Christ (Christ didn't actually sin). And then Imputed Christ's righteousness to us (we were never righteous). All according to Romans 5.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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No. Our sins are not His. He took them, unfairly unto and upon Himself to save those who would believe. They're still our sins, but those sins are forgiven. He made it possible that by grace through faith we COULD be forgiven.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be SIN for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

John said "behold the lamb of God that takes away the SIN of the world"

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I know 2Cor 5:21 has been posted before---but read it again. You must understand that it was more than sins that were placed on Him---He took upon Himself every single sin ever committed and He WAS MADE SIN. On the cross, He was sin itself, the very essence of sin, every sin ever done by every person since Adam and Eve!! We who do not understand that, can not even begin to comprehend the suffering He endured. For as this happened, God the Father---who is too pure and holy to look upon sin---had to withdraw from the presence of Jesus.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

When God withdrew, darkness came. God, who is light, was repelled by the sin that was now His Son.
It was this that broke the heart of Jesus, His Father had to withdraw from Him and that is when Jesus uttered

Mat_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

This cry was wrenched from His very soul as He felt His Father, who had been with Him from everlasting, pull away. He was quoting from Psalm 22. No man killed Him, no Roman spear killed Him, it was not the wrath of God that killed Him---it was being absent from the presence of His Father, who is love itself. And His heart literally burst.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
This only happens when the heart has ruptured and blood and water are released. Jesus was dead before the spear was thrown.

He had been sinless. Always was sinless, until the cross. At the cross, He had to rely on faith that His sacrifice would be accepted by God for He knew His Father was not there for now.

As to what happened to those sins He covered---one must look to the Day of Atonement to see---for on that Day once a year, 2 goats wer brought to the High Priest. One goat had all the sins of the congregation and the priest placed on it's head, representing Jesus---and that goat was slain by the priest and His blood sprinkled for the cleansing of the people and the sanctuary. The slain goat paid the price of sin---death---his blood covered the sins of all present. Then the High Priest placed His hands on the live Goat, thus transferring the sins from the slain goat, to the live goat. That goat was driven out into the dessert and set free---to die of starvation and thirst. The live goat represented Satan. It is he that is to blame for all sin, for the sins that Jesus had to pay for are all were transferred to him, and it is He that the blame for all sin will one day fall on.
Some say that the 2nd goat also represents Jesus---but Jesus died but once for sin, not twice. The blood of Jesus forgives and covers all sins---but the penalty of sin, permanent death, will be laid on the head of Satan and He dies the 2nd death and with him dies all sin.

Jesus allready paid the price for everyone's sins, but the person has to accept this in faith and follow Him. Without accepting the blood of Jesus then the sins are not covered and whoever dies without that blood will have to die the 2nd death with Satan and his fallen angels. The saved die but once---the lost die twice. We are rsurrected unto eternal life, the sinner resurrected unto eternal death.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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No, he did not become a sinner.

Leviticus 16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Day of Atonement
16 Two of Aaron’s sons died while offering incense to the Lord. After that time, the Lord spoke to Moses. 2 The Lord said, “Talk to your brother Aaron. Tell him that he cannot go behind the curtain into the Most Holy Place anytime he wants to. The mercy-cover is in the room behind that curtain on top of the Holy Box, and I appear in a cloud over that mercy-cover. If Aaron goes into that room, he will die!

3 “Before Aaron enters the Most Holy Place, he will offer a bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 Aaron will wash his whole body with water and put on the special clothes. He will put on the linen underwear next to his body, the linen robe, the linen belt, and then he will put the linen turban on his head.

5 “From the whole community of Israel, Aaron will accept two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 Then he will offer the bull for the sin offering. This sin offering is for himself. He will do this to purify himself and his family.

7 “Then Aaron will take the two goats and bring them before the Lord at the doorway of the Meeting Tent. 8 Aaron will throw lots for the two goats. One lot will be for the Lord. The other lot will be for Azazel.

9 “Then Aaron will offer the goat chosen by the lot for the Lord. Aaron will make this goat a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by the lot for Azazel will be brought alive before the Lord. Then this goat will be sent out to Azazel in the desert. This is to make the people pure.

11 “Then Aaron will offer the bull as a sin offering for himself. He will purify himself and his family. He will kill the bull for the sin offering for himself. 12 Then he will take a firepan full of coals of fire from the altar before the Lord. Aaron will take two handfuls of sweet incense that has been ground into powder and take it into the room behind the curtain. 13 He will put the incense on the fire before the Lord. Then the cloud of incense will hide the mercy-cover that is over the Box that holds the Agreement. This way Aaron will not die. 14 Aaron will dip his finger into the bull’s blood and sprinkle it on the front of the Holy Box. Then he will sprinkle the blood seven times onto the front of the mercy-cover.

15 “Then Aaron will kill the goat of the sin offering for the people. He will bring this goat’s blood into the room behind the curtain. He will do with the goat’s blood as he did with the bull’s blood. He will sprinkle the goat’s blood on the mercy-cover and in front of it. 16 In this way Aaron will purify the Most Holy Place from all the uncleanness and sins of the Israelites. He will also purify the Meeting Tent, because it stands in the middle of people whose sins have made them unclean.

17 “No one must be in the Meeting Tent when Aaron goes in to purify the Most Holy Place. No one is to go in there until Aaron comes out after purifying himself, his family, and all the Israelites. 18 Then Aaron will go out to the altar that is before the Lord. Aaron will make the altar pure. He will take some of the blood from the bull and from the goat and put it on the corners of the altar on all four sides. 19 Then he will dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it on the altar seven times. In this way Aaron will make the altar holy and clean from all the sins of the Israelites.

20 “So Aaron will make the Most Holy Place, the Meeting Tent, and the altar pure. Then he will bring the living goat to the front of the tent. 21 He will put both his hands on the head of the living goat. Then he will confess the sins and crimes of the Israelites over the goat. In this way Aaron will lay the people’s sins on the goat’s head. Then he will send the goat away into the desert. A man will be standing by, ready to lead this goat away. 22 So the goat will carry all the people’s sins on itself into the empty desert. The man who leads the goat will let it loose in the desert.

23 “Then Aaron will enter the Meeting Tent. He will take off the linen clothes that he put on when he went into the Holy Place. He will leave these clothes there. 24 He will wash his whole body with water in a holy place. Then he will put on his clothes. He will come out and offer his burnt offering and the people’s burnt offering. He will make himself and the people pure. 25 Then he will burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26 “The man who led the goat to Azazel must wash his clothes and his whole body with water. After that he may come into the camp.

27 “The bull and the goat for the sin offerings will be taken outside the camp. (The blood from these animals was brought into the Holy Place to make the holy things pure.) The skins, bodies, and body waste of those animals will be burned in the fire. 28 Then the man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe his whole body with water. After that he may come into the camp.

29 “This law will always continue for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month, you must not eat food. You must not do any work. None of the travelers or foreigners living in your land can do any work either. 30 Because on this day, the priest will do this to make you pure and wash away your sins. Then you will be clean to the Lord. 31 You must humble yourselves because this day is a very important day of rest for you. This law will continue forever.

32 “In the future, this ceremony will be done by the priest who will be anointed and appointed to serve after his father. That priest will put on the holy linen clothes 33 and make the Most Holy Place, the Meeting Tent, and the altar pure. He will also make the priests and all the people pure. 34 That law will continue forever. Once every year you will purify the Israelites from all their sins.”

So they did everything that the Lord had commanded Moses.

redleghunter said:

You are wording the statement a bit awkwardly. Perhaps this will clear things up a bit:

Isaiah 53: NASB

1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

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He willingly took our punishment. It wasn't a case of cosmic child abuse. Do you think God was angry when he crushed Jesus? Any father would understand it was more like he was sorrowful that is was necessary.

renniks said:

He willingly took our punishment.

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Yes this is accurate.

renniks said:

It wasn't a case of cosmic child abuse.

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No one said it was.

renniks said:

Do you think God was angry when he crushed Jesus?

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You made that up.

renniks said:

Any father would understand it was more like he was sorrowful that is was necessary.

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I agree with this on a subjective basis. In Gethsemane I am sure Our Father seeing His Son suffer and in agony was agonizing for Him.

The Father “took me to Gethsemane” when my son was diagnosed with cancer. I was able for the first time to see Gethsemane as a father.

Anguspure said:

The fact that He rose from the dead shows us that he himself remained innocent, despite the punishment for sin that He took upon himself on our behalf.

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God raised him from the dead to let all of know that all our sins are forever cleansed in his eyes

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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Hello Andy, it's been a while since we have talked.


There needs to be some groundwork laid before we can come to an answer to your question.


First we need to understand who the Lord Jesus Christ is. He is the God-man, as fully God as if He were not a man and as fully man as if He were not God. It needs to be understood that no man can give his life for another. Our life does not belong to us to give. It belongs to God who gave it. We don't have the right or authority to lay down our life for another. Moreover we too are sinners and must pay for our sins and cannot pay for another's sin. But He who is God and man alone has both the right and authority to lay down His life for the sheep.


His death in the place of chosen sinners is pictured and typified in all the Old Testament sacrifices from the first blood shed in the Garden, when God killed an animal and clothed our first parents with it’s skin, to all the service and sacrifices given in the Law.


Next we must understand that the Lord Jesus Christ was a Surety for His people. Heb. 7:22 In the Eternal Covenant made between Father, Son and Spirit before the world began our Lord and Savior agreed to be Surety for His people. A surety in the Bible isn’t like a modern co-signer but one who takes the full debt of another and releases the debtor to go free. Paul became surety for Onesimus in Philemon. He said whatever he owes I will pay. Therefore Onesimus must go free. Christ Jesus the Lord became Surety for His people and agreed to pay all that they owe in full so they must, in righteous justice, be set free.


"surety"; the word signifies one that draws nigh: Christ drew nigh to his Father in the council of peace, and undertook to be the Saviour and Redeemer of his people he substituted himself in their place and stead; he interposed between the creditor and the debtor, and became surety for the payment of the debts of the latter, and so stood engaged for them, and in their room: Christ is not the surety for the Father to his people, but for them to the Father; as to satisfy for their sins, to work out a righteousness for them, to preserve and keep them, and make them happy; which is an instance of matchless love. John Gill’s commentary on Heb. 7:22.


One more thing, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Representative Head of His seed. Rom. 5:10-21 Just as the sin of Adam is counted as our sin, for we were in Adam when he fell, the righteousness and death of Christ for our sin is imputed to us who believe. We were made sinners in Adam and we are made righteous in Christ. If we did not sin in Adam we cannot be saved in Christ.


With these things in mind I will do my best to answer your question.


Christ Jesus the Lord, the spotless Lamb of God, had no sin yet became sin for us that we might be the righteousness of God in Him. 2Chor. 5:21. In an unfathomable transaction of the Godhead Christ Jesus the Lord was made to be sin for us. Our sin became His sin and in Psalm 40 He claims it as His own.


Psa 40:12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.


Psa. 40 is generally considered a Messianic Psalm. In it David, as a type of Christ, speaks as though he is Christ.


In the exact same way that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us our sin is imputed to Christ as His own yet He was no sinner. By imputation He bore our sin in His own body on the tree, 2Pet. 2:24. Notice it doesn’t say on His body, it wasn’t a pasted on sin, but in His own body. He became sin for us, as only He could do having no sin of His own. He stood in our place, substitution, and bore the full brunt of the penalty in our place. He drank damnation dry and there can be no more wrath against sin on any for whom He stood as Representative, Surety and Substitute.


I can’t explain how that imputation works, neither can any other, but it is truth according to the Scriptures.


I hope that helps and if you don’t quite grasp it that is OK. Debating whether Christ was made a sinner is like debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. We derive our doctrine from what is revealed in the Scriptures as a whole not from philosophical fancies. The Scriptures speak and we believe

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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redleghunter said:

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

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I tend to be a simple person and like simple explanations. I think many times people try to make things to fancy. I really like the scripture referenced above and here is how I see the way in which God has saved those who choose to believe in him through his Son Jesus Christ.

Ohj1n37 said:

The very power of God, the awesomeness of God, is what he did for us on the cross. God became human to teach us how to live, to die an undeserved death, and to rise from the dead. See, sin is selfishness and by God choosing to die when he is blameless and take the blame for all our selfishness, all of our sin, he performed the ultimate act of selflessness. When people realize who Jesus is and realize what he did and that he didn't have to do that, but choose to do that, even when people were mocking him, spitting on him, and torturing him, that's what saves someone, that's what breaks their sin and sets them free from selfishness

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redleghunter said:

Yes this is accurate.

No one said it was.

You made that up.

I agree with this on a subjective basis. In Gethsemane I am sure Our Father seeing His Son suffer and in agony was agonizing for Him.

The Father “took me to Gethsemane” when my son was diagnosed with cancer. I was able for the first time to see Gethsemane as a father.

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I'm just trying to correct any misunderstandings people might have about the atonement.

renniks said:

I'm just trying to correct any misunderstandings people might have about the atonement.

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Oh. Well thank you.

PrettyboyAndy said:

...was Jesus a sinner at that time?...

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I don’t think there is any scripture in the Bible that says so, therefore my answer is no.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

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Let's say you make automobiles. However, all of your autos have been defective. Whose fault is it?

Next you give you someone an auto with special instructions to follow the instruction manual precisely. His auto had no problems. Now whose fault are all those defective autos?

When all men sin the sin lies in God. It's his fault. He screwed up when he made us. When Jesus came and did not sin then the sin moved from God to man. Initially, God would have had to wipe out man and start over. Jesus prevented that by not sinning. But now each man is responsible for his own sin.

Matt5 said:

Let's say you make automobiles. However, all of your autos have been defective. Whose fault is it?

Next you give you someone an auto with special instructions to follow the instruction manual precisely. His auto had no problems. Now whose fault are all those defective autos?

When all men sin the sin lies in God. It's his fault. He screwed up when he made us. When Jesus came and did not sin then the sin moved from God to man. Initially, God would have had to wipe out man and start over. Jesus prevented that by not sinning. But now each man is responsible for his own sin.

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The God you speak of deserves pity not praise.

PrettyboyAndy said:

“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

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Those same passages are cited in support of virtually all atonement theories, including my preferred Satisfaction Theory. The texts you cite are hardly specific enough to formulate a comprehensive understanding of our redemption.