Predestination v free will compromise?

sdowney717 said:

For example, my God chose me from the beginning of time, chose me for salvation, before I had been born, before I had done anything good or bad, so that His calling on me according to election might stand. That is what the scripture teaches 'us' who are believers, that He loved me first, which is why I love God. And because of His great love for me, He saved me. He brought about in me the situations in my life where I would come to Him in faith, believing God had raised Him from the dead and acknowledge Christ as Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,

17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

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God from the beginning of time chose to save everyone who would accept His forgiveness like those Christians in Thessalonica.

14 might better be read: He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The NIV leaves it contingent with “might”.

Read in context Thessalonians for in 2 Thess. 2:10 …They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

If they can get to the point of not refusing and willing to accept God’s Love they will be saved. This does not say: “they perish because God did not save them”, making it God’s fault, but something they did not do makes it heir fault and after they refuse and do not accept God sends them a dilution.

Dave L said:

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = you must be saved before you can believe.

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The Greek word used in the fruits of the Spirit, often translated "faith" can and is translated other places faithful.

Hammster said:

You said what we are to do. But you didn’t answer how you know that you are acting right enough.

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A person is either a servant of God or not. How much is irrelevant.

If God’s election is true then...


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?


5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?


8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?


9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?


10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?


11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?


13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?


14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?


“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

Colossians 1:21-23 NASB


15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?


“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”

Genesis 6:5-6 NASB


16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.


“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”

Romans 10:21 NASB

Dave L said:

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = you must be saved before you can believe.

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With all due respect - that's just silly. You are saved by believing.

You are probably thinking of the old translations where the fruit of the spirit called faithfulness is translated as faith in Galatians 5.

But then, even if faith is a fruit of the Spirit, it is the Spirit Who gives us His faith in order that we may believe and be saved.

That work of the Spirit, while necessary of course, does not in and of itself save us.

We must operate that faith in order to be justified and saved.

Saved people do not believe in order to be justified.

Justified people are saved and saved people are justified and in order to enter that company one must believe the gospel and come to the Savior in order to be saved and justified.

I.e.- God helps us to help ourselves. Salvation is not automatically awarded by God even to the elect. No one is saved without themselves believing.

Your statement that "you must be saved before you can believe" is obviously incorrect - in fact you have it completely backward.

I have to tell you that in some 60 years of talking theology with people - from Protestants, to Catholics, to Orthodox, to Mormons, to J.W's, to Islamists - this is the first time I have ever encountered someone who actually had that part backward.

His student said:

With all due respect - that's just silly. You are saved by believing.

You are probably thinking of the old translations where the fruit of the spirit called faithfulness is translated as faith in Galatians 5.

But then, even if faith is a fruit of the Spirit, it is the Spirit Who gives us His faith in order that we may believe and be saved.

That work of the Spirit, while necessary of course, does not in and of itself save us.

We must operate that faith in order to be justified and saved.

Saved people do not believe in order to be justified.

Justified people are saved and saved people are justified and in order to enter that company one must believe the gospel and come to the Savior in order to be saved and justified.

I.e.- God helps us to help ourselves. Salvation is not automatically awarded by God even to the elect. No one is saved without themselves believing.

Your statement that "you must be saved before you can believe" is obviously incorrect - in fact you have it completely backward.

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I used to think becoming born again, (born of God) came after you believed, but honestly it makes no sense. Consider a baby must be born into a family first before becoming a family member.
Same thing with any adult person, they must be born again to become God's child.
And we are not born of God according to our wills. Our carnal mind (natural mind ) we are all born with is at enmity with God and indeed can not be submitted to God. Which means it wont be believing in Christ in its natural fallen condition. The world has those of the world and they dont believe. You must believe to be saved, and you wont believe unless God first makes you born again., and this means God will teach you and you will come to Christ in faith believing. After you believe you are sealed and given the Spirit as a guarantee of your eternal salvation.
What is true is all God makes born again will believe and be saved.

Jesus describes part of the process in John 3 and in John 6 about how God saves us.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Jesus says those who come to God, God has drawn them all and you wont come to Christ and believe unless God draws you.
Jesus says ALL who have heard and learned from God comes to Him and are saved.

So if you never believe in Christ it is because God has not drawn you or taught you about Christ.

Then Jesus emphasizes God must grant your belief in Him. Notice how he compares those who believe versus those who do not believe.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

sdowney717 said:

Jesus says ALL who have heard and learned from God comes to Him and are saved.

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Paul says the same thing in the so called golden chain of salvation in Romans 8.

Those He "called" He also justified. Since all He so calls are justified - it stands to reason that there must be an inward call for some (the elect) over and above the general call that the world receives.

sdowney717 said:

Then Jesus emphasizes God must grant your belief in Him.

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The scripture tells us no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Holy Spirit has to be acting in a person in order for them to come to Jesus and call Him Lord.

When Peter made his declaration of faith Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not revealed that to him but the Holy Spirit had. Men cannot hear the gospel news and reason from their flesh that it is true. It must be revealed to them from above by an act of special grace.

Regarding that work of the Holy Spirit - He tells us that the Spirit is like the wind - we see the result of it, but that result is not the wind.

We see leaves moving and feel a cool breeze - but that is not the wind - it is just the natural by product of the work of the wind.

Likewise we see the result of the Holy Spirit's work when one is born again and begins their walk in the Kingdom of God - but that is not the Holy Spirit Himself. It is but the inevitable and natural by product of His work of grace.

renniks said:

No, reformed theology teaches God chooses for reasons we can't know. Scripture says we are marked with a seal when we believe.

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Good day, Renniks

One more time please source from primary source please...

Reformed primary source of Biblical understanding...

Ligonier Ministries

Here is the premier Greek NT Scholar DA Carson addressing the the issue here short piece.


Ok your turn... reformed theology teaches God chooses for reasons we can't know


here is mine... reason doing so is it brings Him Pleasure.

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

here is mine... reason doing so because he alone wills it.

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I've had these discussions with the reformed multitude times. The claim is he chooses based on his secret will. Which is the same as a choice we can not know the reason for.

What scripture actually says? He saves based on belief.

renniks said:

He saves based on belief.

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Indeed He does. No man is justified without faith.

renniks said:

I've had these discussions with the reformed multitude times. The claim is he chooses based on his secret will. Which is the same as a choice we can not know the reason for.

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What He chooses is those to whom He will reveal His truth thru a personal act of grace they do not deserve.

in some cases we are told the reason he gives that grace (such as with Cornelius) and in some cases we are not told.

In all cases we are told that we do not deserve it.

renniks said:

I've had these discussions with the reformed multitude times. The claim is he chooses based on his secret will. Which is the same as a choice we can not know the reason for.

What scripture actually says? He saves based on belief.

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Yes, but the point is the Father "already knows".

And "knew" (all) long, long, long ago, before you were made or even thought of, and even all long before creation was ever made or even thought of...

That changes the map a little...

We cannot be describing or thinking about this One in a lot of "human terms" that we know or think about, etc... His very nature makes Him way, way far above and way, way beyond most of it/them, by His very nature... to where most of them "do not apply" and cannot be applied to Him or that One...

He knows all yours, mine, and all of ours "choices" from way, way long ago, or before time, created or made you the way you are and to make all the choices that you/me/all and anyone or anything ever does or did, from long before making it/them/me/you/us, and made it all the way it is, or was to be, or was to become, anyway, regardless...

Because He has a "plan", etc, and it is a very, very good plan, etc...

This is the "Heavenly Father God" I'm talking about though, that has always dwelt in Heaven, so please note that please, OK?

For there are two others, the Spirit and the Son...

God Bless!

ByTheSpirit said:

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

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I think that the term "predestination" is used in a bit of a hyperbolic fashion. God knows who will be saved, but this salvation is not completely independent of man's choices, which He foreknows. While salvation is impossible apart from God, man can still say "no" to His overtures; we can resist grace.

SkyWriting said:

And so, I am not worried.

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The issue is how predestination is viewed. The premise of predestination is viewed as singular/individual but the scripture used is not singular

His student said:

With all due respect - that's just silly. You are saved by believing.
I have to tell you that in some 60 years of talking theology with people - from Protestants, to Catholics, to Orthodox, to Mormons, to J.W's, to Islamists - this is the first time I have ever encountered someone who actually had that part backward.

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fhansen said:

I think that the term "predestination" is used in a bit of a hyperbolic fashion. God knows who will be saved, but this salvation is not completely independent of man's choices, which He foreknows. While salvation is impossible apart from God, man can still say "no" to His overtures; we can resist grace.

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Rxw1985 said:

The issue is how predestination is viewed. The premise of predestination is viewed as singular/individual but the scripture used is not singular

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Only God can "view" predestination. Humans cannot fathom the concept of knowing the future. It causes their ears to bleed thinking about it. Humans can only see free will. God can only see your entire life in eternity as one event. The two views cannot be confused.