Osas and apostasy

Saint Steven

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...Which brings us to another thread's question of time travel. I believe God has access to all of time, all of the time (yet another discussion). I also believe that God's knowing everything that's going to happen, doesn't mean He causes those things to happen. So, He watches Joe go to church and come to believe, and God writes Joe's name in the book of life. Joe after many years backslides, falling deeper and deeper into sin. No matter how deep Joe sinks he's still saved - until that point satan puts him in a position of having to confirm his faith. Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ.

God then goes back in 'our time' and erases Joe's name from the Book, making to be as if it were never there from the beginning.

Time goes on and eventually we'll meet our maker and the Book will be opened. Joe's name won't be there, just as if it never was. But clearly, in our time line at least, it was at one point there.

OK, Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact. But he never stopped believing in Him. That's part of the equation. Joe stopped believing. That's the difference between backsliding and apostasy. One is not walking the walk. The other is denying there IS a Walk.
I don't believe that we can by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place.
I bolded these statements from your post.
"... Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ."
"... God... erases Joe's name from the Book..."
"... Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact."

I don't think it works that way. We cannot CHOOSE reprobation by an act of our own will. Christ leaves the ninety-nine and goes after the one. He would not do that if the one could leave the fold permanently of its own free will.

Do we not spend our lives essentially denying Christ? (for the most part) It seems that we receive him bit by bit as we learn to trust him. All the OTHER bits are how we deny him.
 
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Ricky M

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I don't believe that we can by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place.
I bolded these statements from your post.
"... Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ."
"... God... erases Joe's name from the Book..."
"... Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact."

I don't think it works that way. We cannot CHOOSE reprobation by an act of our own will. Christ leaves the ninety-nine and goes after the one. He would not do that if the one could leave the fold permanently of its own free will.

Do we not spend our lives essentially denying Christ? (for the most part) It seems that we receive him bit by bit as we learn to trust him. All the OTHER bits are how we deny him.
Scripture clearly states that there are some who will taste His grace and turn away. You can't use other scriptures to deny that. One must somehow wrap their finite human brain around the idea that what seems to be a contradiction to us must somehow work together in Christ.
 
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There are verses that say once His God will never let us go, yet there are also
passages that clearly say there are those who will taste God's grace and turn away.
... Most people play one set of verses against the other, thus the endless debate.
Me, I think how can these opposites be really both true?
It mostly hinges on the English word "believe".
Sadly, there is NO one word (in any language) which can incorporate all that is involved.
To simplify, just consider including REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE in that word "believe".
Many have said, "Those who truly believe will follow and obey Jesus."
IMO, this resolves the "for and against OSAS" issue!
It reconciles the 2 sets of NT verses.
 
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Saint Steven

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How are such things measured?
Have we not all "turned away" at some point? To what end? (salvation lost?)

And what does it mean to "truly" believe? How do we measure that?
Same with "follow and obey". How do we measure that? Have we not ALL failed in that regard to some degree or another? (salvation lost?)

I still don't believe that we can by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place.
 
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There is one and only one way God imparts the grace of salvation upon someone... and that is when they believe and confess Christ. That's it. There is no good deed you could ever do that would add anything to that. (Not to say good deeds don't have their place but that's another discussion).

Conversely, there is no bad deed you could ever do that would take salvation away. Since it hinges on belief and confession, bad deeds do not erase God's grace. (Not to say that bad deeds don't have their place, but that's yet another discussion).

Believe and confess. You're in. Dis-believe and deny and you're out.

Now, the Bible seems to be at odds with itself on the subject. There are verses that say once His God will never let us go, yet there are also passages that clearly say there are those who will taste God's grace and turn away. And that stickler of 'they were never with us' of those who do. The basic arguments are, can one fall out of a tree they never climbed into, and if one climbs that tree and falls out of it, were they really ever in the tree to begin with?

Most people play one set of verses against the other, thus the endless debate. Me, I think how can these opposites be really both true?

Which brings us to another thread's question of time travel. I believe God has access to all of time, all of the time (yet another discussion). I also believe that God's knowing everything that's going to happen, doesn't mean He causes those things to happen. So, He watches Joe go to church and come to believe, and God writes Joe's name in the book of life. Joe after many years backslides, falling deeper and deeper into sin. No matter how deep Joe sinks he's still saved - until that point satan puts him in a position of having to confirm his faith. Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ.

God then goes back in 'our time' and erases Joe's name from the Book, making to be as if it were never there from the beginning.

Time goes on and eventually we'll meet our maker and the Book will be opened. Joe's name won't be there, just as if it never was. But clearly, in our time line at least, it was at one point there.

OK, Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact. But he never stopped believing in Him. That's part of the equation. Joe stopped believing. That's the difference between backsliding and apostasy. One is not walking the walk. The other is denying there IS a Walk.

John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that beareth not fruit.

John 15:6 anyone who doesn’t abide (stay remain, continue) in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns Gentiles who have been grafted in to the olive tree (God’s Covenant) that God will break them off if they are conceited or turn to unbelief and if those who were broken off for unbelief repent God will graft them back in.

2 Timothy 2:12 Paul includes himself in this message “if we deny Him He will deny us”. Was Paul not a saved believer when he write this?
 
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It mostly hinges on the English word "believe".
Sadly, there is NO one word (in any language) which can incorporate all that is involved.
To simplify, just consider including REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE in that word "believe".
Many have said, "Those who truly believe will follow and obey Jesus."
IMO, this resolves the "for and against OSAS" issue!
It reconciles the 2 sets of NT verses.

Faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. All three of the definitions of these words imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition.


believe

G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers

G4103


Lemma:

πιστός


Transliteration:

pistós


Pronounce:

pis-tos'


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith

G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on
 
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Hillsage

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How are such things measured?
Have we not all "turned away" at some point? To what end? (salvation lost?)

And what does it mean to "truly" believe? How do we measure that?
Same with "follow and obey". How do we measure that? Have we not ALL failed in that regard to some degree or another? (salvation lost?)

I still don't believe that we can by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place.
You're right, we were never truly born again according to 'the will of man' according to scripture.

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of THE WILL of man, but of God.

That which is born of the Spirit is "but of God" and His will, not our will. And if "God works in us both to will and to do."...then whose will really is the real determining will?

Waters too deep for most, as is evident so far here IMO.
 
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Faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis.
Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb,
and believer or pistos being the adjective.
All three of the definitions of these words imply a certain level of
faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition.
Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood
as being opposite sides of the same coin.
Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief,
whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ.
Thus, when one is mentioned the other is implied …
John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith to describe the way people are saved.
Instead, he used believe since this term included all of these ideas.
(The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
 
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Hillsage

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2 Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Looks like GOD’s will preceding man’s, again. :idea:
 
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Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood
as being opposite sides of the same coin.
Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief,
whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ.
Thus, when one is mentioned the other is implied …
John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith to describe the way people are saved.
Instead, he used believe since this term included all of these ideas.
(The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

The primary definition of the Greek word pisteuo has a three part definition. This portion indicates a level of obedience.

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

Repent and believe could also be translated as repent and be faithful.
 
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Saint Steven

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Repent and believe could also be translated as repent and be faithful.
Again the difficulty of measuring such things.

How faithful must one be to be saved? (who knows?) Should this be determined at the final judgment? Thus leaving the hopeful with NO ASSURANCE of salvation in the here and now?

And what of the indwelling Spirit given as a down payment guarantee? (2 Cor.1:22, 5:5) Will that then be revoked if the "believer" is determined to have not been "faithful" enough?

Seems to me that salvation in the here and now can only be based on the FINISHED work of Christ on our behalf. This is easily measured. "It is finished."
 
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Again the difficulty of measuring such things.

How faithful must one be to be saved? (who knows?) Should this be determined at the final judgment? Thus leaving the hopeful with NO ASSURANCE of salvation in the here and now?

And what of the indwelling Spirit given as a down payment guarantee? (2 Cor.1:22, 5:5) Will that then be revoked if the "believer" is determined to have not been "faithful" enough?

Seems to me that salvation in the here and now can only be based on the FINISHED work of Christ on our behalf. This is easily measured. "It is finished."

It’s a simple matter of understanding the definition of the word and it’s usage. If your using the word faith as a verb then the Greek word used is pisteuo which is translated to English as believe but if I were to say repent and be faithful it would be translated in the Greek as metanoéō kai pisteúō because the word faithful is being used as a verb not an adjective.
 
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Saint Steven

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It’s a simple matter of understanding the definition of the word and it’s usage. If your using the word faith as a verb then the Greek word used is pisteuo which is translated to English as believe but if I were to say repent and be faithful it would be translated in the Greek as metanoéō kai pisteúō because the word faithful is being used as a verb not an adjective.
It is no simple matter at all to infer that salvation can be measured by ANYTHING we have to do to EARN it. What sort of belief equates to salvation in the here and now? Based solely on the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross.
 
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Hillsage

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It’s a simple matter of understanding the definition of the word and it’s usage. If your using the word faith as a verb then the Greek word used is pisteuo which is translated to English as believe but if I were to say repent and be faithful it would be translated in the Greek as metanoéō kai pisteúō because the word faithful is being used as a verb not an adjective.
It's also a simple matter of realizing that when you FIRST REPENT you are accepting the "faith OF Jesus" for the imputed righteousness that saves your spirit and not your soul. You then have the opportunity to walk by "faith IN Jesus" as you work out the salvation of your soul. Translators were more understanding of this in the KJV, because they translated those 'little' words "OF" and "IN" correctly. The modern translations just fall shallow of a deeper spiritual understanding.

ROM 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

REV 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that
keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

You did nothing to fulfill the works of the law so you could be saved/born again and "justified" in your spirit. But once you have been, spirit justified and saved, only then is it that you have "the spirit of CHRIST in you". Then you can 'work out the salvation of your soul/mind', by 'putting on the mind of Christ' which is in your spirit, but not in your soul/mind yet.

Not understanding three salvations like this is why Paul called the church of Galatia "little children" or spiritual infants.

GAL 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

And he is only "formed IN you" when your soul is led by the holy spirit of Christ in you, even as Jesus was led by the spirit of Christ which was in his "sinful flesh body" (Rom 8:3) for the first 30 years of his life. He was 'born a son of God' but he had to work out the salvation of his soul just like us. And he did without sinning once even though "tempted in every respect as us".

HEB 4:15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

It was the spirit in Jesus that made him the "son of God". And it was 'the Word becoming sinful flesh body' that made Jesus the "son of man". But it was the motivational cry of his soul that made him have a heart after God that made him the "son of David".

But understandings like this fall short for those in shallow waters.
 
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It’s a simple matter of understanding the definition of the word and it’s usage. If your using the word faith as a verb then the Greek word used is pisteuo which is translated to English as believe but if I were to say repent and be faithful it would be translated in the Greek as metanoéō kai pisteúō because the word faithful is being used as a verb not an adjective.
Not really interested ... because ...
I don't trust the conclusions, etc. of those who made up the definitions!

E.G. secular Greek is different that Christian Greek (in some words).
Some Greek words have 40 different meanings (depending on the context).

Thanks, but I'll stick to trusting the Holy Spirit to reveal
the spiritual Truth of the NT verses I'm reading!
And ...
Having the baptism with the Holy Spirit is critical.
Who amongst those who write commentaries, lexicons, etc. had/have it?
 
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It's also a simple matter of realizing that when you FIRST REPENT you are accepting the "faith OF Jesus" for the imputed righteousness that saves your spirit and not your soul. You then have the opportunity to walk by "faith IN Jesus" as you work out the salvation of your soul. Translators were more understanding of this in the KJV, because they translated those 'little' words "OF" and "IN" correctly. The modern translations just fall shallow of a deeper spiritual understanding.

ROM 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

REV 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that
keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

You did nothing to fulfill the works of the law so you could be saved/born again in spirit. But once you have and are only then is it that you have the spirit of CHRIST in you. Then you can 'work out the salvation of your soul/mind', by 'putting on the mind of Christ' which is in your spirit, but not in your soul.

Not understanding three salvations like this is why Paul called the church of Galatia "little children" or spiritual infants.

GAL 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

And he is only "formed IN you" when your soul is led by the holy spirit of Christ in you, even as Jesus was led by the spirit of Christ which was in his "sinful flesh body" (Rom 8:3) for the first 30 years of his life. He was 'born a son of God' but he had to work out the salvation of his soul just like us. And he did without sinning once even though "tempted in every respect as us".

HEB 4:15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

It was the spirit in Jesus that made him the "son of God". And it was 'the Word becoming sinful flesh body' that made Jesus the "son of man". But it was the motivational cry of his soul that made him have a heart after God that made him the "son of David".

But understandings like this fall short for those in shallow waters.

They didn’t translate those little word “of and in” because they are not in the Greek translations. They added them. The KJV is not my preference because of its influence from the Geneva bible and reformed theology.

Romans 3:22

22 δικαιοσύνη (righteousness) G1343 N-NFS δὲ (even) G1161 Conj θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS διὰ (through) G1223 Prep πίστεως (faith) G4102 N-GFS Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) G2424 N-GMS Χριστοῦ (Christ) G5547 N-GMS εἰς (unto) G1519 Prep πάντας (all) G3956 Adj-AMP τοὺς (those) G3588 Art-AMP πιστεύοντας (believe) G4100 V-PPA-AMP οὐ (no) G3756 Adv γάρ (for) G1063 Conj ἐστιν (is) G1510 V-PI-3S διαστολή (distinction) G1293 N-NFS

Galatians 2:16

16 εἰδότες (Knowing) G1492 V-RPA-NMP δὲ (nevertheless) G1161 Conj ὅτι (since) G3754 Conj οὐ (no) G3756 Adv δικαιοῦται (justified) G1344 V-PIM/P-3S ἄνθρωπος (man) G444 N-NMS ἐξ (by) G1537 Prep ἔργων (works) G2041 N-GNP νόμου (law) G3551 N-GMS ἐὰν (if) G1437 Conj μὴ (not) G3361 Adv διὰ (through) G1223 Prep πίστεως (faith) G4102 N-GFS Χριστοῦ (Jesus) G5547 N-GMS Ἰησοῦ (Christ) G2424 N-GMS καὶ (even) G2532 Conj ἡμεῖς (we) G1473 PPro-N1P εἰς (in) G1519 Prep Χριστὸν (Christ) G5547 N-AMS Ἰησοῦν (Jesus) G2424 N-AMS ἐπιστεύσαμεν (believed) G4100 V-AIA-1P ἵνα (so) G2443 Conj δικαιωθῶμεν (justified) G1344 V-ASP-1P ἐκ (by) G1537 Prep πίστεως (faith) G4102 N-GFS Χριστοῦ (Christ) G5547 N-GMS καὶ (even) G2532 Conj οὐκ (no) G3756 Adv ἐξ (by) G1537 Prep ἔργων (works) G2041 N-GNP νόμου (law) G3551 N-GMS ὅτι (since) G3754 Conj ἐξ (by) G1537 Prep ἔργων (works) G2041 N-GNP νόμου (law) G3551 N-GMS οὐ (no) G3756 Adv δικαιωθήσεται (justified) G1344 V-FIP-3S πᾶσα (every) G3956 Adj-NFS σάρξ (flesh) G4561 N-NFS

Revelation 14:12

12 Ὧδε (here) G5602 Adv ἡ (the) G3588 Art-NFS ὑπομονὴ (perseverance) G5281 N-NFS τῶν (the) G3588 Art-GMP ἁγίων (saints) G40 Adj-GMP ἐστίν (is) G1510 V-PI-3S οἱ (the) G3588 Art-NMP τηροῦντες (keep) G5083 V-PPA-NMP τὰς (the) G3588 Art-AFP ἐντολὰς (commandments) G1785 N-AFP τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS καὶ (and) G2532 Conj τὴν (the) G3588 Art-AFS πίστιν (faith) G4102 N-AFS Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) G2424 N-GMS

It seems that your saying we are saved by Jesus’ faith and not ours so does that mean that we don’t need to have faith in Christ to be saved?
 
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Based solely on the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross.
Saint, thou art totally ignoring and/or rejecting
DOZENS of dire warnings in the NT
concerning our part in our salvation
:
our responsibility and accountability to God.

This is understandable though ... because ...
many Spirit-filled Christians on the Internet have been screaming,
"The church is FAST ASLEEP!"

And God has also been saying this to His prophets!

This is a major reason why God is sending JUDGMENT
on America ... to wake up His sleeping church!
One prophet says it's about ... death to life,
like the dry bones coming to life in Ezekiel.
 
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Saint Steven

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Saint, thou art totally ignoring and/or rejecting
DOZENS of dire warnings in the NT
concerning our part in our salvation
:
our responsibility and accountability to God.

This is understandable though ... because ...
many Spirit-filled Christians on the Internet have been screaming,
"The church is FAST ASLEEP!"

And God has also been saying this to His prophets!

This is a major reason why God is sending JUDGMENT
on America ... to wake up His sleeping church!
One prophet says it's about ... death to life,
like the dry bones coming to life in Ezekiel.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record... Again the difficulty of measuring such things.

As soon as you introduce something WE HAVE TO DO to be saved, how do you measure it? Did you do enough? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Did you do enough then? (who knows?)

Based on our own merit, none of us "deserves" salvation.
 
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BCsenior

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At the risk of sounding like a broken record... Again the difficulty of measuring such things.
As soon as you introduce something WE HAVE TO DO to be saved, how do you measure it? Did you do enough? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Did you do enough then? (who knows?)
Based on our own merit, none of us "deserves" salvation.
Yes, I understand.
Saint, it's all about having the right heart attitude before the Lord.
If you love Jesus, you will do your best to obey His commandments, etc.
For example, John 14:15, 21, 23, 24.
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, I understand.
Saint, it's all about having the right heart attitude before the Lord.
If you love Jesus, you will do your best to obey His commandments, etc.
For example, John 14:15, 21, 23, 24.
You understand? (I doubt it)
The "right heart attitude"? How do you measure that?

Did you "obey" EVERYTHING? (what does that even mean?) Could you have obeyed more? (sure) Did you obey enough? (who knows?)

Did you do "your best"? (what does that mean?) Could you have done better? (sure) Did you do enough? (who knows?)

Can anyone really obey all Jesus' "commands"? How are you doing on this set?

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
 
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