Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

  • saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • saved by works of the law, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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FreeGrace2

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v.30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬
4:30 is the very BEST verse in the whole Bible to teach loss of salvation, if that were true. But it does NO SUCH THING. In fact, just the opposite. Instead of saying that those faithful saints who THEN grieve the Spirit will be UNSEALED or lose salvation, or any such wording, Paul says they are SEALED FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Not exactly words of condemnation, don'tcha think?

Once a person receives the Holy Spirit they will always have conviction of sin. Now they can choose to disregard and overlook that conviction but it will always be present until the day of redemption.
Key word being, 'redemption'. Not condemnation.

At no time does a person lose the Holy Spirit but that doesn’t mean that they can’t lose salvation.
It does too. The believer is sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. How else can you twist these words to mean condemnation???

In fact, Paul made that clear in 2 Tim 2:12,13
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

v.12: believers who endure will reign with Him. This is a specific promise of an eternal reward of sharing in His glory (Rom 8:17b).

The opposite is true; believers who don't endure (deny Him) will be denied the reward of reigning with Him.

v.13: even if believers are faithless, God remains faithful. Why? Because "He CANNOT DENY HIMSELF".

This specifically refers to the fact that those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit are God's possession (Eph 1:14) and God cannot deny the Holy Spirit (Himself).

Now pay attention to what Paul says as he continues this message in chapter 5. Notice the very first word in chapter 5 is “Therefore” which indicates that he is adding onto what he has previously said at the end of chapter 4.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
5:5 is a parallel comment found also in 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5. But, whereas 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5 use the phrase "not inherit the kingdom", Eph 5:5 says "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

Otherwise, all 3 passages are parallel. That means to "not inherit the kingdom" is synonymous with "no inheritance IN the kingdom".

I have capitalized the word "in" in Eph 5:5 to emphasize what Paul was saying. He sure wasn't saying "won't get IN the kingdom" but have "no inheritance in the kingdom".

Therefore, some (maybe many of them) believers will be IN the kingdom, but just won't have any inheritance IN the kingdom. Or, they "will not inherit the kingdom".

Throughout the Bible you will see examples over and over that willful indulgence in sin is not tolerated and the words “anyone or any man” who indulge in sin will not receive salvation.
Nonsense. Jesus couldn't have been more clear. Those He gives eternal life, which is at the MOMENT one believes (John 5;24 6:47, 1 Jn 5:11, 13), SHALL NEVER PERISH (John 10:28).

These indicate that believers are not excluded from the consequences of willfully indulging in sin.
This is true, but it doesn't lead to loss of salvation. Because John 10:28 doesn't allow that bit of opinion.

The consequences of willful sin is found as a summary statement in 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (euphemism for physical death).

Along with this, consider Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

So, for such believers, they will face a painful weakness, leading to painful sickness, leading to a painful physical death.

And we have verses that actually say that believers can suffer a painful death.

1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Do you think that the "destruction of the flesh" at the hands of Satan is going to be a picnic? Something to sneeze at?

I've had arrogant Arminians (believe in OSNAS) respond to God's divine discipline as merely a 'hand slap', which is delusional.

Or 1 Tim 1:20 - Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Again, does this sound like some kind of pleasant picnic, with Satan having charge over the believer for the purpose of teaching him not to blaspheme???

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
That's right. They will have no inheritance IN the kingdom. But that doesn't mean or say they won't be IN the kingdom.

Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 21:27
This proves what Jesus said in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:7-8
Did you notice that the first 2 words in this list are synonymous? To be a coward is to be without faith. Same as to be an unbeliever.

The list is about unsaved people who never believed.

Here are 2 verses that state WHO will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Can you claim in all honesty that someone who HAS EVER believed can be described as one who "has not believed"??

Believers are not excluded from any of these verses my friend.
Nope. As I have just proven and refuted your claim.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You have continually ignored what Jesus so plainly taught us, which is to REMAIN in Him.
lol. That is SOOOOOOOOOO funny. lol

Said the guy who ignored what Jesus so plainly taught us, which is that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So don't lecture me about ignoring what Jesus taught.

That's what hypocrites do. All the time.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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In trouble of what? Losing salvation? I believe that is the point JLB and BibleHighligter have been making. Not that stumbling in sin will result in condemnation but that a true believer is capable of turning away from God and willfully indulging in sin which will result in loss of salvation.

I believe God does give us grace to overcome certain sins in this life, but it should not be a crutch or justification to do evil all the time or to do evil every once in a while. I also do not believe we can declare that we are still saved if we stumble into sin and we do not confess of it. I believe 1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (Which would be to Jesus - 1 John 2:1). What need would there be to confess of sin that we stumble in if we are automatically forgiven of such sin? Adam and Eve's eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil, and they knew they were naked the day the instant Adam disobeyed God. Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed for lying to the Holy Ghost. I believe if we commit grievous sin (like lying, hating, lusting, etc.) we abide in spiritual death and not life. This is why we need to confess of sin, and to forsake it. For it is why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). For the moment we justify even one sin that we say is just a quick stumble, we can think to do that sin all the time. But it only takes one grievous sin to separate a person from God (Whether it we stumbled or whether we continue in that sin). For if a person broke certain aspects of the Old Law, they would die physically. In the New Covenant, we are not stoned, or killed for disobeying God's laws, but we can die spiritually unless we repent (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord).

So is the believer condemned forever to hell for stumbling? In most cases... "no." But they do abide in spiritual death until they repent or seek forgiveness of such a sin with Jesus. For Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses of sin shall have mercy. It is not just forsaking sin, and it is not just confessing sin. We need both to have mercy. In 1 Kings 13, the man of God who listened to the prophet and disobeyed the word of God to eat in Bethel was killed by a lion. This was just one command that he disobeyed (Which was one sin). It only took one sin to kill him.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I believe God does give us grace to overcome certain sins in this life, but it should not be a crutch or justification to do evil all the time or to do evil every once in a while.
Agreed!

I also do not believe we can declare that we are still saved if we stumble into sin and we do not confess of it.
Why do you believe this? What verse or passage supports this?

I believe 1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (Which would be to Jesus - 1 John 2:1). What need would there be to confess of sin that we stumble in if we are automatically forgiven of such sin?
The whole point of the believer confessing sins is for fellowship. Count the times that word occurs in ch 1. 4 times. That's the point of confession. Just as in a marriage, when one spouse offends the other, fellowship is broken, lost, whatever you want to call it. And the only way back into fellowship is for confession to the offended spouse.

The Bible uses the marital relationship as an analogy to our spiritual relationship with Christ. He is the Bridegroom, and the church is the Bride. Of course the Bridegroom would never offend the Bride, but the Bride can and does offend the Bridegroom.

Such offense breaks fellowship. The result is that the Lord cannot use that believer in His service. This is also found in John 15. Only those who "abide in Him" (fellowship) will bear fruit.

Adam and Eve's eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil, and they knew they were naked the day the instant Adam disobeyed God.
That really wasn't the point of opening their eyes. They knew they were naked when they were created. What changed was the way they looked. That's why they hid. Before their rebellion, they were naked before the Lord and had no problem or shame with it.

There's a very reasonable explanation of what might have happened to their bodies, that revealed that they had disobeyed the Lord. However, I'm not going to hijack the thread. If anyone is interested in this, PM me and I'll explain it to you.

Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed for lying to the Holy Ghost. I believe if we commit grievous sin (like lying, hating, lusting, etc.) we abide in spiritual death and not life.
The problem with this view is that those who have believed have been given the gift of eternal life. And such life cannot die. So once born again, the believer can no longer return to spiritual death.

Which is why Jesus could say what He did in John 10:28: I given them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish.

So is the believer condemned forever to hell for stumbling? In most cases... "no." But they do abide in spiritual death until they repent or seek forgiveness of such a sin with Jesus.
What verse or verses teach that believers can move in and out of the status of spiritual death?

The actual fact is that the believer moves in and out of fellowship with the Lord. Not death.

For Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses of sin shall have mercy. It is not just forsaking sin, and it is not just confessing sin. We need both to have mercy. In 1 Kings 13, the man of God who listened to the prophet and disobeyed the word of God to eat in Bethel was killed by a lion. This was just one command that he disobeyed (Which was one sin). It only took one sin to kill him.
This is physical death. But you had been discussing spiritual death. They are not the same.
 
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JLB777

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lol. That is SOOOOOOOOOO funny. lol

Said the guy who ignored what Jesus so plainly taught us, which is that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So don't lecture me about ignoring what Jesus taught.

That's what hypocrites do. All the time.


Calling me names won’t change the truth that Jesus taught to us about remaking in Him.



As long as you remain in Christ you have eternal life, which is “knowing Him”.


If you don’t remain in Him, then you will be cast into the fire and burned.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.1 John 3:24


They way a person can lose their eternal life is by being removed from Christ.


In Christ = Eternal Life

Removed from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned




JLB
 
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createdtoworship

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In trouble of what? Losing salvation? I believe that is the point JLB and BibleHighligter have been making. Not that stumbling in sin will result in condemnation but that a true believer is capable of turning away from God and willfully indulging in sin which will result in loss of salvation.
No sir they have Bible Highlighter has said that works merit salvation, in his first few posts here on this thread, I can find it if you wish. He believes in grace, but you cannot logically accept a grace salvation while believing in a works salvation. Repentance is required, not works to be saved. There is a subtle difference,
 
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The Bible teaches we are saved by both Justification and Sanctification.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification) and a belief of the truth (Justification).

Justification:

God’s Grace through Faith (without works):

(The 1st work of God):

Believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. It also includes one in being born again spiritually by the Spirit (as a result), as well. Justification is how we are initially and ultimately saved.

  1. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-9).

  2. “What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.” (Romans 4:1-6).

  3. “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” (Titus 3:4-7).

  4. “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

  5. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).

  6. “And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14).

  7. “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:1-2).

  8. “To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Romans 3:26-28).

  9. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners” (Galatians 2:17).

  10. “...and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:20-21).

  11. “...not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith” (Philippians 3:9).

  12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:12-14).

  13. “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:4-7).

  14. “But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 2:13-17).

  15. ”Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.” (Romans 3:20-30).
 
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Sanctification:

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(The 2nd Work of God):

This Process is to put away sin, live holy, and to do good works via by the power of God working through the believer. In essence, they are the works of God done through the believer. So there is no boasting in ourselves or in our own work but there is only boasting in the work of God done through us. In other words, God gets all the glory for the good He does through us. We praise God and not ourselves for His active presence that changes us to be more like Him.


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Most get tripped up on reconciling Justification and Sanctification in both being for salvation because when they read Justification verses, they do not understand that Paul was arguing against "Law Alone Salvationism" via the 613 laws as a part of the Law of Moses (Which usually involved "Circumcision Salvationism"; Circumcision Salvationism was a heresy at the time that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be saved instead of having faith in Jesus Christ, See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Paul was NOT arguing against the commandments of Jesus Christ. For Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4); And we must take note that Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28). For Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19).

Paul was NOT arguing against Sanctification as a part of salvation (after we are saved by God's grace), either. Paul confirms Sanctification for salvation in Romans 8:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Titus 1:16.
 
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JLB777

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No sir they have Bible Highlighter has said that works merit salvation, in his first few posts here on this thread, I can find it if you wish. He believes in grace, but you cannot logically accept a grace salvation while believing in a works salvation.

First one must understand the difference between “salvation” as in being born again, and “receiving the salvation of your soul”, at the end of your faith, on the Day of Judgement, when we all will stand before our Lord, to be Judged according to our deeds.


Do you understand the difference?

Being saved by faith, and receiving the salvation of your soul on that Day?


IOW, to saved as in born again, there is only the need to obey the Gospel, which is to repent.

In this there is no works involved.


I can assure you though, if you live your entire life as a born again Christian and never do one single thing to help anyone or love anyone or obey the leading of the Spirit to do good, then on the day of Judgement when you stand before your Lord to give an account of what you did with the gift of His Life, and you have nothing to show for it but a self serving life style, then you will hear these awful words...


“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:24-30


Here is the context for you to read -



“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Matthew 25:31-36



“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46




JLB
 
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createdtoworship

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The Bible teaches we are saved by both Justification and Sanctification.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification) and a belief of the truth (Justification).

Justification:aith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.” (Romans 4:1-6).
  1. ; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee
  2. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners” (Galatians 2:17).

  3. “...and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:20-21).

  4. “...not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith” (Philippians 3:9).

  5. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:12-14).

  6. “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:4-7).

  7. “But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 2:13-17).

  8. ”Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.” (Romans 3:20-30).

Sanctification:

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(The 2nd Work of God):

This Process is to put away sin, live holy, and to do good works via by the power of God working through the believer. In essence, they are the works of God done through the believer. So there is no boasting in ourselves or in our own work but there is only boasting in the work of God done through us. In other words, God gets all the glory for the good He does through us. We praise God and not ourselves for His active presence that changes us to be more like Him.

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).​

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them whichnaked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in pris

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Most get tripped up on reconciling Justification and Sanctification in both being for salvation because when they read Justification verses, they do not understand that Paul was arguing against "Law Alone Salvationism" via the 613 laws as a part of the Law of Moses (Which usually involved "Circumcision Salvationism"; Circumcision Salvationism was a heresy at the time that said you had to be first circumcised in order to be saved instead of having faith in Jesus Christ, See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Paul was NOT arguing against the commandments of Jesus Christ. For Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4); And we must take note that Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28). For Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19).

Paul was NOT arguing against Sanctification as a part of salvation (after we are saved by God's grace), either. Paul confirms Sanctification for salvation in Romans 8:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Titus 1:16.

thanks for your reply, I don't have time to reply to everything, I simply did a word search for sanctification and only found one scripture that mentioned salvation in the same verse as sanctification, as you said we are saved by both, however only one verse said that we were out of all those you posted. So for one, that should tell you something. The fact that more scripture does not state that we are saved by our sanctification, should reveal that this is an error. Secondly I want to include a commentary on the one verse that was mentioned. I don't fully agree with commentary use, however it does show an alternative explanation, I am not saying the explanation is accurate, I am just saying that it is different:

In reference to the one verse that mentioned both salvation and sanctification in one verse: 2 Thess 2:13
"This is the only use of salvation (sōtēria) in this epistle. However, in 1 Thess 5:8–9 sōtēriaclearly refers to salvation from the Tribulation. That fits the context as well. While it is true that Paul has just spoken of the eternal condemnation of the unbelievers who are persecuting the Thessalonians (v 12), the preceding context deals primarily with the fact that the unbelievers will go through the Tribulation.

This salvation requires two things. First, the Holy Spirit will set believers apart (sanctification by the Spirit). This likely refers to positional sanctification. That is the divine side of salvation from the Tribulation. The human side is belief in the truth. This is in contrast to v 12 with its reference to those “who did not believe the truth.” All who believe the truth will escape the Tribulation.

Believers were called to this sanctification by the apostle’s (our) gospel. The result was not only that believers escape the Tribulation, but positively for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. All believers Matt 16:24–28; 1 Pet 4:13)."-Grace New Testament Commentary
 
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createdtoworship

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First one must understand the difference between “salvation” as in being born again, and “receiving the salvation of your soul”, at the end of your faith, on the Day of Judgement, when we all will stand before our Lord, to be Judged according to our deeds.


Do you understand the difference?

Being saved by faith, and receiving the salvation of your soul on that Day?


IOW, to saved as in born again, there is only the need to obey the Gospel, which is to repent.

In this there is no works involved.


I can assure you though, if you live your entire life as a born again Christian and never do one single thing to help anyone or love anyone or obey the leading of the Spirit to do good, then on the day of Judgement when you stand before your Lord to give an account of what you did with the gift of His Life, and you have nothing to show for it but a self serving life style, then you will hear these awful words...


“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:24-30


Here is the context for you to read -



“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Matthew 25:31-36



“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46




JLB
Sir there was no distinction made in the post I am referring to, that is, a distinction between salvation, and the receiving of salvation (at the end of life). And this would be an arbitrary distinction as well, as most of the scripture refer to salvation starting instantaneously when we believe.

there are many things that accompany salvation that happen the moment you believe:

We become a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

We become a priest of God. 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

We are reconciled to God. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"Said the guy who ignored what Jesus so plainly taught us, which is that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So don't lecture me about ignoring what Jesus taught.

That's what hypocrites do. All the time."
Calling me names won’t change the truth that Jesus taught to us about remaking in Him.
Don't change the subject. You talk about my ignoring what Jesus "so plainly taught us", yet you have brazenly rejected what He taught about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish. You are convinced (deluded) that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

There is NO connection between CAN and SHALL NEVER. They are totally opposite.

btw, I never called you any names. I pointed out what hypocrites DO.

If the shoe fit, wear it.

As long as you remain in Christ you have eternal life, which is “knowing Him”.
No, it's called being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14.

And you have YET to prove from Scripture that a sealed believer can be unsealed or lose their position in Christ.

Your theories are man made.

If you don’t remain in Him, then you will be cast into the fire and burned.
What Jesus said wasn't literal. He was speaking figuratively.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
All about fellowship, for the purpose of bearing fruit.

Since you have made it very clear that you vehemently reject what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, why should anyone listen to anything you post?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Sanctification:

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
Apparently you don't see the total contradiction is what you post here.

You said, "AFTER we ARE SAVED by God's grace". Then you said, "God's works ARE ALSO REQUIRED as a part of the salvation process".

Wrong. Once we are saved, the process is COMPLETE. You're just trying to have it both ways.

Nothing that followed in your post is relevant to the discussion, since you contradicted yourself at the beginning of your post.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No sir they have Bible Highlighter has said that works merit salvation, in his first few posts here on this thread, I can find it if you wish. He believes in grace, but you cannot logically accept a grace salvation while believing in a works salvation. Repentance is required, not works to be saved. There is a subtle difference,

I would say it depends on the situation. A person could have a genuine conversion of repentance and faith in his final moments and be saved without having done works. It is not the works themselves that merit salvation but the state of his heart. It’s the heart that has love for God and others that receives salvation. Such a person if he had the opportunity would do good works because the love he has for God and others compels him to do them. However, a person can also have a genuine conversion and have love for God and others and later became lukewarm or can even rebel against God completely and thus forfeit his salvation. The root of works is love. A person can have faith in Christ but without love he will not be saved. One thing that is abundantly clear is that a true believer can lose his salvation. Between the reformation and bad English translations the word of God has been corrupted and people have been steered towards a false gospel that was never taught in the early church. People are blinded by the actions of the Roman church so much that they reject anything that is Catholic out of ignorance of what the apostolic Catholic Church actually taught. If more people would take a look at the early church writings outside of the scriptures they would be able to see what the church actually taught instead of believing in doctrines that were not created until the 16th century and have no evidence of being taught in the church prior to the reformation movement.
 
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If more people would take a look at the early church writings outside of the scriptures they would be able to see what the church actually taught instead of believing in doctrines that were not created until the 16th century and have no evidence of being taught in the church prior to the reformation movement.
I just couldn't let this slip by without comment.

You apparently have more confidence in the early church teachings rather in in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus couldn't have been more clear about those He gives the gift of eternal life, which is given WHEN one believes. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

He said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

But your opinion is that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Are you aware that the word "CAN" is no way related to the words "SHALL NEVER"?

If not, you need to be. And once you realize that, why doesn't it bother you?
 
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Sir there was no distinction made in the post I am referring to, that is, a distinction between salvation, and the receiving of salvation (at the end of life). And this would be an arbitrary distinction as well, as most of the scripture refer to salvation starting instantaneously when we believe.

there are many things that accompany salvation that happen the moment you believe:

We become a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

We become a priest of God. 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

We are reconciled to God. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

When we are justified we receive the hope of eternal life which we don’t actually receive until we either die or Jesus returns.

“since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:5-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:23-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:5-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Sir there was no distinction made in the post I am referring to, that is, a distinction between salvation, and the receiving of salvation (at the end of life). And this would be an arbitrary distinction as well, as most of the scripture refer to salvation starting instantaneously when we believe.

there are many things that accompany salvation that happen the moment you believe:

We become a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

We become a priest of God. 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

We are reconciled to God. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If there is a condition to salvation it cannot be received until that condition is met. The scriptures say several times that we must endure to the end to receive eternal life.
 
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thanks for your reply, I don't have time to reply to everything, I simply did a word search for sanctification and only found one scripture that mentioned salvation in the same verse as sanctification, as you said we are saved by both, however only one verse said that we were out of all those you posted. So for one, that should tell you something. The fact that more scripture does not state that we are saved by our sanctification, should reveal that this is an error. Secondly I want to include a commentary on the one verse that was mentioned. I don't fully agree with commentary use, however it does show an alternative explanation, I am not saying the explanation is accurate, I am just saying that it is different:

In reference to the one verse that mentioned both salvation and sanctification in one verse: 2 Thess 2:13
"This is the only use of salvation (sōtēria) in this epistle. However, in 1 Thess 5:8–9 sōtēriaclearly refers to salvation from the Tribulation. That fits the context as well. While it is true that Paul has just spoken of the eternal condemnation of the unbelievers who are persecuting the Thessalonians (v 12), the preceding context deals primarily with the fact that the unbelievers will go through the Tribulation.

This salvation requires two things. First, the Holy Spirit will set believers apart (sanctification by the Spirit). This likely refers to positional sanctification. That is the divine side of salvation from the Tribulation. The human side is belief in the truth. This is in contrast to v 12 with its reference to those “who did not believe the truth.” All who believe the truth will escape the Tribulation.

Believers were called to this sanctification by the apostle’s (our) gospel. The result was not only that believers escape the Tribulation, but positively for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. All believers Matt 16:24–28; 1 Pet 4:13)."-Grace New Testament Commentary

The Bible talks about "Sanctification" (or the variations on that word) as in relation to living holy in other parts of the Bible.

Sanctify:

John 17:17
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Supplementary Verses:

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3).

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...". (1 Peter 1:22).

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word."
(Psalms 119:9).

"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." (Psalms 119:11).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." Matthew 23:26).

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." (Luke 6:45).

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Sanctify & Sanctified:

Jesus says in John 17:19
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

Supplementary Verses:

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6).

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." (1 Peter 2:21).

"So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as Christ is pure." (1 John 3:3 GW).

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

Sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

Supplementary Verses:

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).​

Sanctification & Sanctified:

1 Thessalonians 4:4
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Supplementary Verses:

7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." (2 Corinthians 4:7-10).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).​


May God bless you (even if we disagree);
And please be well.
 
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thanks for your reply, I don't have time to reply to everything, I simply did a word search for sanctification and only found one scripture that mentioned salvation in the same verse as sanctification, as you said we are saved by both, however only one verse said that we were out of all those you posted. So for one, that should tell you something. The fact that more scripture does not state that we are saved by our sanctification, should reveal that this is an error. Secondly I want to include a commentary on the one verse that was mentioned. I don't fully agree with commentary use, however it does show an alternative explanation, I am not saying the explanation is accurate, I am just saying that it is different:

In reference to the one verse that mentioned both salvation and sanctification in one verse: 2 Thess 2:13
"This is the only use of salvation (sōtēria) in this epistle. However, in 1 Thess 5:8–9 sōtēriaclearly refers to salvation from the Tribulation. That fits the context as well. While it is true that Paul has just spoken of the eternal condemnation of the unbelievers who are persecuting the Thessalonians (v 12), the preceding context deals primarily with the fact that the unbelievers will go through the Tribulation.

This salvation requires two things. First, the Holy Spirit will set believers apart (sanctification by the Spirit). This likely refers to positional sanctification. That is the divine side of salvation from the Tribulation. The human side is belief in the truth. This is in contrast to v 12 with its reference to those “who did not believe the truth.” All who believe the truth will escape the Tribulation.

Believers were called to this sanctification by the apostle’s (our) gospel. The result was not only that believers escape the Tribulation, but positively for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. All believers Matt 16:24–28; 1 Pet 4:13)."-Grace New Testament Commentary

Also, Post #428 shows a newly refined list of verses for showing how good works or holy living (i.e. Sanctification by the Spirit) is also a part of our salvation (After we are saved by God's grace). Give me a word for word commentary on at least a few of them in how you think they do not apply (or they do not mean what they plainly say). Before you just gave a general sweeping pass of what you thought those verses say. If you are truly correct in what you are teaching here, then you should have no problem giving me a word for word commentary on at least a few of the verses in post #428. So far you have not done that.
 
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