Two kinds of faith.

GingerBeer · Nov 3, 2019

Faith is an interesting thing. It starts with saying YES to God; taking hold of the gospel and saying I believe that. That is the start of faith. Like a seed, or an acorn that has fallen ripe and ready from its parent plant and now awaits the changes that mark setting roots, sending up a stem, growing leaves, and slowly and surely growing to maturity. The start is one kind of faith. It consists mainly in accepting things that are taught; the teacher may be scripture, a church, preacher, or books or a combination of them all.

Another kind of faith is implied in the kind that accepts. This other kind of faith is what grows and how it grows. It is the maturing of the acceptance that was given to things that were taught. It is the difference between knowing of fatherhood and becoming a father who experiences it. It is the difference between studying piano and playing it. It is the difference between believing what Jesus teaches and doing it.

Christians start with the first kind of faith and end with the second if they remain faithful.

Unofficial Reverand Alex · Nov 3, 2019

Interesting post. It reminded me of something I saw in a book for my Theology class; Catholics and Lutherans agree on the faith/works issue!

"The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification essentially says that Lutherans and Catholics explain justification in different ways but share the same basic understanding. The central passage reads, “Together we confess: by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.” The declaration acknowledges that good works are a genuine response to God’s grace—not the cause of it. The declaration also rescinds the formal condemnations of both the Catholic and Lutheran Churches against one another."

Faith and Works: Catholics and Lutherans Find Agreement

May God bless us all & lead us more fully into His wonderful grace!

zippy2006 · Nov 3, 2019

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
Catholics and Lutherans agree on the faith/works issue!

It's a bit debatable.

zippy2006 · Nov 3, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Faith is an interesting thing. It starts with saying YES to God; taking hold of the gospel and saying I believe that. That is the start of faith. Like a seed, or an acorn that has fallen ripe and ready from its parent plant and now awaits the changes that mark setting roots, sending up a stem, growing leaves, and slowly and surely growing to maturity. The start is one kind of faith. It consists mainly in accepting things that are taught; the teacher may be scripture, a church, preacher, or books or a combination of them all.

Another kind of faith is implied in the kind that accepts. This other kind of faith is what grows and how it grows. It is the maturing of the acceptance that was given to things that were taught. It is the difference between knowing of fatherhood and becoming a father who experiences it. It is the difference between studying piano and playing it. It is the difference between believing what Jesus teaches and doing it.

Christians start with the first kind of faith and end with the second if they remain faithful.

This is similar to Augustine's distinction between fides qua and fides quae:

We say certainly with perfect truth, that the faith of believers is impressed from one doctrine upon the heart of each several person who believes the same thing. But that which is believed is a different thing from the faith by which it is believed. For the former is in things which are said either to be, or to have been or to be about to be; but the latter is in the mind of the believer, and is visible to him only whose it is; although not indeed itself but a faith like it, is also in others. For it is not one in number, but in kind; yet on account of the likeness, and the absence of all difference, we rather call it one than many. For when, too, we see two men exceedingly alike, we wonder, and say that both have one countenance. (De Trinitate 13.2.5)

He distinguishes between the faith that is common to all believers (for example, the words of the Nicene Creed), and the faith of the individual believer (which is unique for each person, a kind of appropriation of the faith of the Church).

You seem to be saying that the seed of faith is planted in acceptance, and then it grows in living. The planting and the growth are two different things. Augustine might say that what is planted is the fides quae creditur, and what grows is the fides qua creditur. Not quite, but sort of.

I'm sure there are important differences, too.

GingerBeer · Nov 3, 2019

Faith has another aspect that is implied in the first post, it is that acceptance is a voluntary act. Faith is not compelled either by external influences nor by irresistible logic or proofs. External things, such as hearing the gospel, reading it, or in some other way becoming aware of it does influence but it does not compel. Internal processes such as logic, emotion, even family affection influence but do not compel. Faith is a decision made voluntarily.

It's maturation is also voluntary. One decides to act upon what is accepted in the beginning of faith and one can decide to reject what was accepted or refuse to act upon it. Sometimes it takes many chances to act before one decides to act.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 3, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Faith is an interesting thing. It starts with saying YES to God; taking hold of the gospel and saying I believe that. That is the start of faith. Like a seed, or an acorn that has fallen ripe and ready from its parent plant and now awaits the changes that mark setting roots, sending up a stem, growing leaves, and slowly and surely growing to maturity. The start is one kind of faith. It consists mainly in accepting things that are taught; the teacher may be scripture, a church, preacher, or books or a combination of them all.

Another kind of faith is implied in the kind that accepts. This other kind of faith is what grows and how it grows. It is the maturing of the acceptance that was given to things that were taught. It is the difference between knowing of fatherhood and becoming a father who experiences it. It is the difference between studying piano and playing it. It is the difference between believing what Jesus teaches and doing it.

Christians start with the first kind of faith and end with the second if they remain faithful.

I believe it is the same faith. Starts on milk and ends up on meat. Mature Christian vs a baby Christian I suppose.

GingerBeer · Nov 3, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
I believe it is the same faith. Starts on milk and ends up on meat. Mature Christian vs a baby Christian I suppose.

If thinking and doing are the same thing then I'd agree with you. I do not think that thinking and doing are the same thing.

fhansen · Nov 4, 2019

zippy2006 said:
It's a bit debatable.

Yes, one thing that would be debatable is the question of what we do once justified. Are we then obligated to follow God, to express and grow in the justice that results when we are "accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit"? While God is responsible for "equipping us and calling us to good works", are we then expected to "invest" those "talents", to answer that call, to do the best we can with whatever we're given? Perseverance isn't guaranteed. Faith may or may not grow into hope, and, most importantly, love.

bling · Nov 4, 2019

I might agree with Maria Billingsley in that saving faith is the same but it can grow making it look differently. I though when you brought up the idea about there being two kinds of faith you would discuss saving faith and non-saving faith like the demons might have or faith in false gods, others, things and self.

tturt · Nov 4, 2019

"You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works. James 2:22 AMPC

GingerBeer · Nov 4, 2019

fhansen said:
Yes, one thing that would be debatable is the question of what we do once justified. Are we then obligated to follow God, to express and grow in the justice that results when we are "accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit"? While God is responsible for "equipping us and calling us to good works", are we then expected to "invest" those "talents", to answer that call, to do the best we can with whatever we're given? Perseverance isn't guaranteed. Faith may or may not grow into hope, and, most importantly, love.

Jesus told a story about servants who were given several talents of gold and then left to use them for their master's benefit while the master was away in a distant land. The story appears to make profitable use of the gifts a proper response to receiving them which is rewarded by the master and improper use is marked as a disappointment that receives discipline from the master.

GingerBeer · Nov 4, 2019

bling said:
I might agree with Maria Billingsley in that saving faith is the same but it can grow making it look differently. I though when you brought up the idea about there being two kinds of faith you would discuss saving faith and non-saving faith like the demons might have or faith in false gods, others, things and self.

Do you think that the first kind of faith, the kind that accepts but has not yet acted upon what is accepted is "saving faith" if it is never acted upon despite many opportunities to act upon it?

GingerBeer · Nov 4, 2019

tturt said:
"You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works. James 2:22 AMPC

The ESV puts it like this: (James 2:22-23) [22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; [23] and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness—and he was called a friend of God.

fhansen · Nov 4, 2019

GingerBeer said:
...improper use is marked as a disappointment that receives discipline from the master.

Yes, or worse according to the parable. God wants our "talents" to grow, grace leading to more grace. Burying them is tantamount to being ashamed of the gospel it would seem.

GingerBeer · Nov 4, 2019

fhansen said:
Yes, or worse according to the parable. God wants our "talents" to grow, grace leading to more grace. Burying them is tantamount to being ashamed of the gospel it would seem.

Some object to any connection between works and salvation and that seems so counter biblical. But there are many theological views (doctrines) that people adhere to despite scripture's counter testimony.

bling · Nov 5, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Do you think that the first kind of faith, the kind that accepts but has not yet acted upon what is accepted is "saving faith" if it is never acted upon despite many opportunities to act upon it?

All mature adults have been given a faith ability (we have faith in people, pets and things) it is only when we direct our faith toward a benevolent Creator that it becomes a saving faith.

GingerBeer · Nov 6, 2019

bling said:
All mature adults have been given a faith ability (we have faith in people, pets and things) it is only when we direct our faith toward a benevolent Creator that it becomes a saving faith.

But is that all there is to it? Directing faith towards God but not doing anything with it?

bling · Nov 6, 2019

GingerBeer said:
But is that all there is to it? Directing faith towards God but not doing anything with it?

You have to trust (have faith) enough to accept God's charity in the form of forgiveness as pure charity.
The lowliest mature adult on earth can humbly accept help from a benevolent Creator, so saving faith is a humbling activity, with most refusing to be humble themselves to that degree.

GingerBeer · Nov 6, 2019

bling said:
You have to trust (have faith) enough to accept God's charity in the form of forgiveness as pure charity.
The lowliest mature adult on earth can humbly accept help from a benevolent Creator, so saving faith is a humbling activity, with most refusing to be humble themselves to that degree.

So why is any kind of faith needed?

With God so benevolent and nothing being required of the believer except trust why have "saving faith" rather than just pure benevolence on God's part saving everyone? What's the point of asking for or demanding trust from the recipient of salvation when nothing like obedience, goodness, holiness etcetera is needed, is any of it even asked for?

I ask this because scripture sure looks as if holiness is needed: Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). And obedience too seems important:
And Samuel said, Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.
(1 Samuel 15:22)

bling · Nov 7, 2019

GingerBeer said:
So why is any kind of faith needed?

With God so benevolent and nothing being required of the believer except trust why have "saving faith" rather than just pure benevolence on God's part saving everyone? What's the point of asking for or demanding trust from the recipient of salvation when nothing like obedience, goodness, holiness etcetera is needed, is any of it even asked for?

I ask this because scripture sure looks as if holiness is needed: Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). And obedience too seems important:
And Samuel said, Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.
(1 Samuel 15:22)

What is the motive for doing all this?

Is obedience without Godly type Love beneficial 1 Cor. 13:1-4?

If you have Godly type Love will that not compel you to do good stuff?

What is there to gain from doing good stuff, besides not giving away, what has already been given?

Faith is needed to help the willing individual fulfill their earthly objective.

Two kinds of faith.

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