The problem with "church" as I see it.....

hislegacy

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Sins dominate us. Emptiness enshrouds us. Lukewarmness possesses us. Worldliness is now our norm. Evil fruits of unrighteousness. But how do we fight them? Ahhhh, we don't.

Fighting against sin is at best a life of miserable unsureness, and at worst a recipe for a hardened heart. No, the ax must be laid to the root of the tree bearing those fruits in our lives.

And what is that root? Unbelief.

We simply refuse to pick up what God offers us. New Natures. They do not just 'happen'. They must be put on.

I completely disagree with this. As I said, there are some churches that resemble this, but there are thousands that are nothing like it at all.

Do you know of the Revivals happening in the US and other countries?
Do you know of the mega church that has more than 1,200 home church groups that are actively reaching their city and doing the work of the ministry. Setting thousands free.

Do you know of the church in Tamps that reached out to their area of the city and crime dropped 40% because of the church preaching the Gospel?

Do you know of the mega church that has founded and support more than 15,000 church plants in Asia?

Do you know of the church in Stuttgart, Germany that has 40 neighborhood churches and over 700 ministers who touch the city, setting people free for the last 25 years

Are you familiar with the couple who started Taco Tuesday going out to the homeless in Tulsa, who minister to hundreds every month and they are seeing people delivered from drugs, set free, healed and dedicating their lives to Christ.


The problem with the "church" as I see it? There are too many sitting back hoping for something that is happening all around them and we could sure use their help. Time is short, the harvest is plentiful, pray the Lord of the Harvest and send laborers. It is happening all around us.

God is receiving the precious fruit of the earth.
 
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Gideons300

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We will always have sin with us as long as we are in these mortal bodies, but we will not allow sin to dominate us. Temptation may trip us up now and again, but we don't go back where sin dominates our lifestyle.
Here, Oscar, we must part ways, albeit it temporary, methinks. ☺️

God's word speaks nothing about "having sin with us always". He tells us to be Holy as He is Holy, to walk as overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil.

He assures us that we can bring every thought, not just action, but THOUGHT... wow..into submission to Him.

He tells us sin shall NOT have dominion over us.

He tells us our shield of faith will quench ALL satan's arrows.

He assures us that He will not only not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist, but He will also give us a way to escape EVERY TIME. Glory!

We as His bride are about to finally come into agreement with our God. He whispers, even now, that we are new creatures, every whit whole, and that the old us is DEAD. He tells us we owe the flesh, the carnal us, NOTHING.

Our faith is about to be awakened. And it is all about to change. Some for the better. Some for the worse.

blessings,

Gids
 
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Gideons300

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I completely disagree with this. As I said, there are some churches that resemble this, but there are thousands that are nothing like it at all.

Do you know of the Revivals happening in the US and other countries?
Do you know of the mega church that has more than 1,200 home church groups that are actively reaching their city and doing the work of the ministry. Setting thousands free.

Do you know of the church in Tamps that reached out to their area of the city and crime dropped 40% because of the church preaching the Gospel?

Do you know of the mega church that has founded and support more than 15,000 church plants in Asia?

Do you know of the church in Stuttgart, Germany that has 40 neighborhood churches and over 700 ministers who touch the city, setting people free for the last 25 years

Are you familiar with the couple who started Taco Tuesday going out to the homeless in Tulsa, who minister to hundreds every month and they are seeing people delivered from drugs, set free, healed and dedicating their lives to Christ.


The problem with the "church" as I see it? There are too many sitting back hoping for something that is happening all around them and we could sure use their help. Time is short, the harvest is plentiful, pray the Lord of the Harvest and send laborers. It is happening all around us.

God is receiving the precious fruit of the earth.
We will have to agree to disagree here. We have multiple millions walking in defeat, birthing others who also walk in deveat. We may be active for God. But we are not God driven. God possessed.

We are those who have a name that we live, but we are healed only slightly. We talk of peace. The problem is, few possess it.

We draw near Him with our lips, but our hearts are OURS. All that is about to change. Religious Christianity is about to meet abiding in Christ. Some will desire it, some will say the old is better.

blessings,

Gideon
 
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Not loaded at all. I'm wondering if anyone making such observations has actually experienced what they are speaking about first hand, or are sharing judgments based on something other.

I travel in the US and internationally ministering and training pastors and leaders. While there are certainly some churches that are like what is being portrayed in this thread, there are perhaps three times as many that are nothing like what is being described.

I'm wondering if I am speaking with people with actual experience, or armchair quarterbacks. Mr reply is different or each.
Converted in the Lower Hutt AOG in 1966
Relocated to Wellington AOG 1967. The pastor was an traditional Pentecostal from the North of England. Expository preacher
Moved to an independent fellowship 1968
Relocated to Palmerston North and joined the Open Door Mission, an independent Pentecostal church. The pastor was ex-Methodist Holiness. Very strict in his discipleship.
Got married in 1974, and moved to my wife's church (which in hindsight was a mistake) - an ex-Baptist church that became Charismatic. Run by a board of elders. The senior elder was a very controlling ex-Exclusive Brethren. He left the church early 1980s and took half the congregation with him.
1978 - left that church. Became disillusioned because of its narrow theme preaching. I had discovered Puritan theology and discovered that there was more to be gained than listening to sermon after sermon on how to be a better Charismatic. Attended healing meetings run by every international ministry who came to the city. In the 11 years I was involved in those meeting, after hearing all the claims made, not one person actually got healed. That's when I became skeptical about the "healing ministry".
1978 - Join All Saints Anglican church in Palmerston North. Discovered a whole new breed of Anglican Charismatics who, in my opinion, were closer to Christ than the ones I left. Enjoyed being in a church not run by personalities, but by professionally trained evangelical ministers. The church was not high Anglican.
1982: Got promoted in my job back to Wellington. Attended a suburban Anglican church for around a year. Didn't get really bonded into it, because the following year I entered Canterbury University in Christchurch.
1983: Found a housegroup of Baptists, and enjoyed it so much I joined their church and became a deacon.
1987: Graduated a BA in English and started a teaching position in Dunedin. Got board with a Baptist minister. He was a Bible believing pastor so I joined his church. Remained there until 1990.
1990: Gained a teaching position in Hamilton. Didn't attend church until moving to Auckland in 1996. I decided to have a rest from church life, although I attended some services from time to time.
1996: gained another teaching position in Auckland. Didn't want to travel to church, so I started at a Presbyterian church five minutes walk from home. Ended up becoming an elder, then Session Clerk (senior elder) after our minister left and wasn't replaced. Participated as treasurer, worship leader, and preacher.
2018: The church employed a Mission Enabler who was a very controlling person who wanted to make big changes to the church. I got bullied by him in the process, so I withdrew all my involvement with the church and stayed home for six months.
Then I was invited back by a guest preacher friend, and so I went back and made peace, and re-established contact. These days I am content to sit on the back row with the backsliders and just enjoy the ministry (which is good expository Bible preaching) and the fellowship with the church family.

In my experience with the different churches and fellowships I associated with, I saw all types of people, and saw all the reasons why people go to church. I am glad that I sat under the ministries of two excellent pastors in the Pentecostal churches I went to, because they put Jesus first and loved the Scriptures. The pastor in Palmerston North said that to be an effective believer one had to be a man of prayer and of the Word. His ministry basically spoiled me for any other ministry that did not have his calibre, and after all these years, 1970-2019, his teaching stood the test of time for me, while others fell by the wayside.

I found that many in the Charismatic church where I was a deacon through my being on the leadership team of Palmerston North Teen Challenge (1970-78) from 1973-1978 had one foot in the world as well as in the church. Many didn't seem to have a love for the Word of God, and the gospel of Christ didn't seem to feature in the preaching. Also, I found that the standards of holiness that I learned from the Pastor of the Open Door Mission, were not reflected.

What I also discovered, which was different to what I was brainwashed with as a Pentecostal, was that Christians in the Anglican, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches were just as faithful to Christ and as filled with the Spirit. Of course, in these denominations, I did not see the manifestation of many of the gifts of the Spirit, but that didn't seem to make fellowship with the people any less encouraging and upbuilding.

So, for what it is worth, that is my experience with churches.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Here, Oscar, we must part ways, albeit it temporary, methinks. ☺️

God's word speaks nothing about "having sin with us always". He tells us to be Holy as He is Holy, to walk as overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil.

He assures us that we can bring every thought, not just action, but THOUGHT... wow..into submission to Him.

He tells us sin shall NOT have dominion over us.

He tells us our shield of faith will quench ALL satan's arrows.

He assures us that He will not only not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist, but He will also give us a way to escape EVERY TIME. Glory!

We as His bride are about to finally come into agreement with our God. He whispers, even now, that we are new creatures, every whit whole, and that the old us is DEAD. He tells us we owe the flesh, the carnal us, NOTHING.

Our faith is about to be awakened. And it is all about to change. Some for the better. Some for the worse.

blessings,

Gids
John Wesley preached sinless perfection by faith as part of the doctrine of Entire Sanctification by faith. The problem he found was that every time he succumbed to temptation (as we all do to some measure), he had to get sanctified all over again. Eventually, he abandoned the doctrine because, as he said, it was unrealistic and unworkable in normal Christian living.
 
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We will have to agree to disagree here. We have multiple millions walking in defeat, birthing others who also walk in deveat. We may be active for God. But we are not God driven. God possessed.

We are those who have a name that we live, but we are healed only slightly. We talk of peace. The problem is, few possess it.

We draw near Him with our lips, but our hearts are OURS. All that is about to change. Religious Christianity is about to meet abiding in Christ. Some will desire it, some will say the old is better.

blessings,

Gideon
We had a guy on CF a couple of years ago who reckoned he had not sinned for the last 30 years. He must have been one of those who believed in sinless perfection by faith. I don't know how he could have reconciled his position of faith every time he became inpatient, unkind, angry, discouraged, critical of others, jealous, envious, etc., as we all have these feelings from time to time. I don't know if he was married and had a family, but if he did, it would have been interesting to find out from them how sinlessly perfect he was!

I think the danger for a believer who maintains that he is sinlessly perfect by faith, is when he fails under temptation, and others may view him as a hypocrite because his actions and behaviour don't match his spiritual words.
 
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Gideons300

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We had a guy on CF a couple of years ago who reckoned he had not sinned for the last 30 years. He must have been one of those who believed in sinless perfection by faith. I don't know how he could have reconciled his position of faith every time he became inpatient, unkind, angry, discouraged, critical of others, jealous, envious, etc., as we all have these feelings from time to time. I don't know if he was married and had a family, but if he did, it would have been interesting to find out from them how sinlessly perfect he was!

I think the danger for a believer who maintains that he is sinlessly perfect by faith, is when he fails under temptation, and others may view him as a hypocrite because his actions and behaviour don't match his spiritual words.
I remember the poster. I pray my behavior brings no dishonor to the Lord.

May I interject in the argument against sinless perfectionism that I do not believe such a walk is possible for a moment. Sinless perfectionism denotes a 'state of being" that one arrives at, undoubtedly by much effort. That state does not exist.

But being kept by the power of God through faith is not a state of being but a moment by moment walk.... an abidibg, where, glory to God, we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Instead of walking on the road TO holiness, often ending up in pride and legal-mindedness for those who endure, God has promised to plant our feet on the Highway OF Holiness, where He does the keeping, not us. And a man, though he be a fool, shall not err therein. Yay! I qualify! LOL.

Ultimately, as the darkness in the world increases ever more rapidly, His children will see such a walk as not only possible, but as an absolute necessity. right now, not so much.

We must beware dismissing the promises of God because we do not see it possible. Can we do it? No way, Jose. Ahh, but can and will God set us free indeed.... free from committing sins.....just as He promised us? You can take those promises to the bank.

Now the only thing lying in the way of this amazing life? Our lack of desire to have it at all costs.

blessings, my dear brpther

Gids
 
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Lost4words

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We will always have sin with us as long as we are in these mortal bodies, but we will not allow sin to dominate us. Temptation may trip us up now and again, but we don't go back where sin dominates our lifestyle.

Very difficult to break away from the same sins that have plagued our lives for years though. For me, it has been extremely difficult
 
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Lost4words

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LOL, you know me well enough to know what my response is going to be. Absolutely!

We have judged God's ability to do what He promised He would do but what we have experienced and witnessed in our walks with God. Big mistake, fro in doing so, we have robbed ourselves of lives of victory and transformation.

Sins dominate us. Emptiness enshrouds us. Lukewarmness possesses us. Worldliness is now our norm. Evil fruits of unrighteousness. But how do we fight them? Ahhhh, we don't.

Fighting against sin is at best a life of miserable unsureness, and at worst a recipe for a hardened heart. No, the ax must be laid to the root of the tree bearing those fruits in our lives.

And what is that root? Unbelief.

We simply refuse to pick up what God offers us. New Natures. They do not just 'happen'. They must be put on.

blessings,

Gids

As clear as mud that reply. For me anyway. Lol
 
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Very difficult to break away from the same sins that have plagued our lives for years though. For me, it has been extremely difficult
That's the very reason why Jesus died on the cross! He took the guilt, penalty, and the wrath of God for our sins, setting us free to be able to be led of the Holy Spirit in His workmanship in us to develop sanctification in us. Developing sanctification and holiness is too difficult for us. If it were easy and attainable, then Jesus would not have had to come and die on the cross. It is so difficult, we need the indwelling Holy Spirit to do the work in us.
 
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Lost4words

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That's the very reason why Jesus died on the cross! He took the guilt, penalty, and the wrath of God for our sins, setting us free to be able to be led of the Holy Spirit in His workmanship in us to develop sanctification in us. Developing sanctification and holiness is too difficult for us. If it were easy and attainable, then Jesus would not have had to come and die on the cross. It is so difficult, we need the indwelling Holy Spirit to do the work in us.

But, Jesus didnt suffer so that i can go on sinning without a care in the world.

The need to break away from sin is MASSIVE for me but in practice it is extremely difficult.
 
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Gideons300

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That's the very reason why Jesus died on the cross! He took the guilt, penalty, and the wrath of God for our sins, setting us free to be able to be led of the Holy Spirit in His workmanship in us to develop sanctification in us. Developing sanctification and holiness is too difficult for us. If it were easy and attainable, then Jesus would not have had to come and die on the cross. It is so difficult, we need the indwelling Holy Spirit to do the work in us.
Brother, He came to not only forgive us but also to cleanse us.... to deliver us not just from the penalty but from the power of darkness. Our problem is simply that we do not believe it. Our solution?

Let us believe our God that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and owe the flesh nothing. Oscar, you are a man of the Word. I believe that. Scripturally, where are the verses that back up your belief that in reality, a man cannot truly walk free from the bondage to sin?

blessings,

Gids
 
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hislegacy

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We will have to agree to disagree here. We have multiple millions walking in defeat, birthing others who also walk in deveat. We may be active for God. But we are not God driven. God possessed.

We are those who have a name that we live, but we are healed only slightly. We talk of peace. The problem is, few possess it.

We draw near Him with our lips, but our hearts are OURS. All that is about to change. Religious Christianity is about to meet abiding in Christ. Some will desire it, some will say the old is better.

blessings,

Gideon

how do you know this?
 
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jiminpa

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how do you know this?
Millions attend churches, even evangelical churches, and are completely indistinguishable from the world. A prominent preacher recently sold millions of books denouncing the Holy Spirit, and he is still on "Christian" radio. There is so much more.
 
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But, Jesus didnt suffer so that i can go on sinning without a care in the world.

The need to break away from sin is MASSIVE for me but in practice it is extremely difficult.
If a person went on sinning without a care in the world, it would show that although he might have religion, he is not genuinely converted to Christ.

But a person who struggles with his flesh and would wish for all the world to be free of it so he does not sin, and therefore cares deeply about it because he finds it extremely difficult to achieve the standards of holiness that he is aiming for, is a truly converted Christian believer.
 
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Brother, He came to not only forgive us but also to cleanse us.... to deliver us not just from the penalty but from the power of darkness. Our problem is simply that we do not believe it. Our solution?

Let us believe our God that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and owe the flesh nothing. Oscar, you are a man of the Word. I believe that. Scripturally, where are the verses that back up your belief that in reality, a man cannot truly walk free from the bondage to sin?

blessings,

Gids
The progression is:
Justification - where, because of the finished work of Christ, God declares us not guilty of sin. Therefore there is no guilt or condennation, and we exchange our unrighteousness with the righteousness of Christ.
Sanctification - where the Holy Spirit works in us, and we work in cooperation with Him to have ourselves conformed to the image of Christ.
Glorification - where we exchange our mortal bodies with our glorified body to spend eternity in direct fellowship with and worship of Christ. It is in this state we finally reach perfection.

Until then, during our Sanctification stage with struggle with our flesh and mourn because we cannot be perfect as our heart desires, and so we long for that day when we meet the Lord and set free from this mortal body.
 
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Gideons300

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how do you know this?
When I say "walking in defeat" I refer to the walk of a man in Romans 7, where the things you want to do, yo do not do, and the things you do not want to do, you do.

Of course, the opposite of this is walking in Romans 8 where you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and owe the flesh nothing. Here a man or woman discovers that God really does insure we do not cave into temptation, and that our shields of faith really do quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy.

Are you now saying you personally know millions who are walking in their birthright? No, brother, it is time we admitted to God..... and to ourselves.... that such a walk of overcoming simply eludes us.

Being good is not the issue. Being free is. I stand by my take and find it amazing that some would try to argue that a good portion of His church are walking FREE INDEED.

How did Jesus define this freedom? He that commits sin is a servant to sin and is not free. Impossible, you say? Amen! Unless of course, God actually means what He says.

blessings,

Gideon
 
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Gideons300

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Millions attend churches, even evangelical churches, and are completely indistinguishable from the world. A prominent preacher recently sold millions of books denouncing the Holy Spirit, and he is still on "Christian" radio. There is so much more.
Jim!! Seeing your name pop up made me smile. I hope you are well. Great to see you.

blessings,

Gids
 
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Gideons300

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millions no, not personally

hundreds of thousands. Yes.
With sin under their feet, walking with their flesh put off and clothed in their new natures? Ok.

Gids
 
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