The puzzling silence of Paul

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~Anastasia~

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They may well have been. I assume they were. But the fact that the historical Jesus is almost entirely missing from Paul's numerous epistles remains very puzzling. In giving correction and instruction, references to Jesus and his teachings seem so likely and even inevitable that the absence is startling. Paul does make enough references (e.g., "born of a woman") that it's clear he isn't talking about some mythical figure as some claim - but still, the paucity of references is certainly odd. This doesn't mean that it doesn't have a perfectly innocent explanation along the lines you suggest - it's just puzzling and was startling to me since I had read Paul's epistles many times without ever really noticing it.
Ah ok.

I guess I have no real part in the discussion then. It's true that Paul's (and the other) epistles don't talk directly about Jesus that much. I guess I'm just not surprised. It's easy enough (just in my thinking) that that wasn't their purpose.

I'm not trying to be difficult, or condescending, or making less of your concern. I suppose it partially might be due to the differences in how east and west view theological inquiry.

God be with you. :)
 
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AvisG

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Ah ok.

I guess I have no real part in the discussion then. It's true that Paul's (and the other) epistles don't talk directly about Jesus that much. I guess I'm just not surprised. It's easy enough (just in my thinking) that that wasn't their purpose.

I'm not trying to be difficult, or condescending, or making less of your concern. I suppose it partially might be due to the differences in how east and west view theological inquiry.

God be with you. :)
That is true. My wife is Russian - although Baptist rather than Orthodox! - and that connection has caused me to dive pretty deeply into Eastern Orthodoxy. If someone held a gun to my head and said "You have to pick one church," my choice would be Eastern Orthodox. But the EO perspective on the Bible and theology in general is quite different from that of most Protestants.
 
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FenderTL5

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Ah ok.

I guess I have no real part in the discussion then. It's true that Paul's (and the other) epistles don't talk directly about Jesus that much. I guess I'm just not surprised. It's easy enough (just in my thinking) that that wasn't their purpose.

I'm not trying to be difficult, or condescending, or making less of your concern. I suppose it partially might be due to the differences in how east and west view theological inquiry.

God be with you. :)
I agree Anastasia.
I understand that Paul was writing to Churches (or Church leadership in the case of Timothy and Titus) that already existed; they were already baptizing, celebrating the Eucharist, the prayers etc and were written to address specific issues in the churches. That he wouldn't do a catechism refresher course doesn't surprise me.
 
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~Anastasia~

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But the EO perspective on the Bible and theology in general is quite different from that of most Protestants.
That could be an interesting discussion. In the proper area of course ... I'm not sure where that would be. St. Justin Martyr's in the Eastern Orthodox congregational forum would work, though it's not necessarily designed for that. Traditional Theology has that kind of format, but wouldn't include all Protestant types, so I can't really suggest there.
 
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This topic is a favorite of those who argue that Jesus is a mythic figure who never even existed, but I'm NOT approaching it from that angle. However, it's a genuine mystery that causes me to suspect that Jesus' ministry may have been quite different from the biblical portrayal.

The way the NT is organized, it's quite easy to be lulled into thinking that Paul was writing his epistles against the backdrop of the four Gospels. This is, of course, wildly incorrect. Paul wrote long before the Gospels were written and indeed died long before they were written (i.e., he is believed to have died in 62 AD vs. sometime after 70 AD as an early date for Mark, while some of the epistles are much earlier).

Yet Paul scarcely even mentions the historical Jesus. There is no mention of the Virgin Birth, Mary, the teachings and parables, the miracles or anything else that is central to the Gospels. (Paul does, of course, emphasize the Resurrection, but he doesn't mention the empty tomb.) On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus.

It's believed that the Gospels arose out of eyewitness accounts, a carefully preserved oral tradition, and one or more "sayings" documents such as Q. Hence, the Gospel material was certainly available when Paul was writing, but he never mentions it.

It can be argued that Paul had other concerns, but this isn't really true. He repeatedly addresses hot-button issues in the churches and gives direction on Christian living to which Jesus' parables and teachings would have been directly relevant, yet he never mentions those teachings.

I recently did a study of just how tiny Judea was in Jesus' time. To give an idea, the entire territory of modern Israel, including the disputed territories, is approximately the same size as the Phoenix (Arizona) Metropolitan Area or the state of New Hampshire. The population of Jerusalem in Jesus' time is estimated at 60,000 to 80,000 with Judea estimated at 200,000 to 300,000 (these figures are scholarly estimates and there are estimates that are fantastically higher, but these are mainstream estimates). In any event, Jesus operated in quite a small area with quite a small population.

Does it seem plausible that, in an area of this size, an individual doing the things Jesus is described in the Gospels as having done would not have achieved FAR greater notice during His lifetime? Does it seem plausible that the Gospels would be almost entirely silent regarding the 30 or so years of His existence before He burst on the scene? Does it seem plausible that the Roman and Jewish historical records would barely even take notice of Him?

I see no plausible way to explain these things except to conclude that Jesus' ministry was most likely far more localized and obscure than the Gospels suggest and that it was the Resurrection that caused a certain degree of "mythologizing" to develop around the historical figure He actually had been. This is why I always take the position that Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection and pretty much NOTHING else.

I don't believe that honestly addressing puzzles such as this is in any way heretical or blasphemous or even something God would discourage. Even the question as to whether Jesus existed at all is a perfectly legitimate one; the vast, vast majority of scholars, including secular scholars, believe that He did. On the other hand, I don't believe there is anything particularly pious, faithful or pleasing to God about pretending these puzzles don't exist or trying to explain them away with glib and facile "explanations" that really don't fit the facts.


I could be wrong.....
I often am but since listening to the near death experience account of Rabbi Alon Anava who was an Atheist at the time of his brush with death...... I have began to see Matthew chapters 4,5,6,7 in a whole new light.

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus was truly Jewish......
and I do think that modern Christianity has largely glossed over that fact and the probable implications.

My major point is this......
during his forty days of fasting Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus sure seems to have had some experiences that somewhat resemble a near death experience. I am referring to
Matthew 4.
..........
Matthew 5
Matthew 6
Matthew 7

have far, far, far more in common with the teachings of Rabbi Alon Anava than most of us would tend to imagine at first.

 
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AvisG

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Just to correct a misimpression that I may have left, the scholarship on the date of Mark is somewhat all over the map. A date in the early 50's would be a fringe position ("lunatic fringe" would be overstating it), but my suggestion that 70 AD would be an "early" date was incorrect. It would be a very mainstream date. Plenty of scholars date Mark in the 60's, before the fall of the temple in 70.

"A general range of dating for the Gospel of Mark can be suggested with reference to the external evidence. If the tradition of Markan authorship is accepted, Irenaeus implies that the Gospel of Mark was written after the death of Peter, traditionally set in Rome c. 65 CE. If the tradition is not accepted, as Nineham states (op. cit., p. 41), 'Those who are cautious about accepting the Papias tradition can hardly put the lower limit much earlier, for they must allow time for the oral tradition to have developed in the way described above.' The terminus ad quem is set by the incorporation of Mark into the Gospel of Matthew and into the Gospel of Luke. If the Gospel of Matthew was written in the last two decades of the first century, the most probable range of dating for the Gospel of Mark is from 65 to 80 CE." Gospel of Mark
 
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St_Worm2

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This topic is a favorite of those who argue that Jesus is a mythic figure who never even existed, but I'm NOT approaching it from that angle. However, it's a genuine mystery that causes me to suspect that Jesus' ministry may have been quite different from the biblical portrayal.

The way the NT is organized, it's quite easy to be lulled into thinking that Paul was writing his epistles against the backdrop of the four Gospels. This is, of course, wildly incorrect. Paul wrote long before the Gospels were written and indeed died long before they were written (i.e., he is believed to have died in 62 AD vs. sometime after 70 AD as an early date for Mark, while some of the epistles are much earlier).

Yet Paul scarcely even mentions the historical Jesus. There is no mention of the Virgin Birth, Mary, the teachings and parables, the miracles or anything else that is central to the Gospels. (Paul does, of course, emphasize the Resurrection, but he doesn't mention the empty tomb.) On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus.
Hi Avis, on the flip-side, it is also interesting to note that the Apostles had nothing bad to say about Paul's Epistles (St. Peter referred to them as Holy Scripture) or about him, only good .. cf 2 Peter 3:15-16 (they knew Paul, knew what he believed and taught [that it was from God], and they considered him a dearly beloved brother, teacher and leader in Christ .. cf Acts 15:22-29).

As for the 500 that Paul mentions, I find it even odder that no one other than Matthew mentioned THIS incredible occurrence .. Matthew 27:52-53, don't you?

My final thought about this (for now ;)), is this, how many "Gospels" do we really need? IOW, how many more Books of the Bible do we need that teach the very same things that the Gospels do? God seemed to believe that the 4 would do nicely, yes?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - actually, the Apostle Paul's "credentials" seem pretty impressive all-around, do they not :)

Acts 9
15 The Lord said to him [Ananias], “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.

.
 
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Robin Mauro

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This topic is a favorite of those who argue that Jesus is a mythic figure who never even existed, but I'm NOT approaching it from that angle. However, it's a genuine mystery that causes me to suspect that Jesus' ministry may have been quite different from the biblical portrayal.

The way the NT is organized, it's quite easy to be lulled into thinking that Paul was writing his epistles against the backdrop of the four Gospels. This is, of course, wildly incorrect. Paul wrote long before the Gospels were written and indeed died long before they were written (i.e., he is believed to have died in 62 AD vs. sometime after 70 AD as an early date for Mark, while some of the epistles are much earlier).

Yet Paul scarcely even mentions the historical Jesus. There is no mention of the Virgin Birth, Mary, the teachings and parables, the miracles or anything else that is central to the Gospels. (Paul does, of course, emphasize the Resurrection, but he doesn't mention the empty tomb.) On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus.

It's believed that the Gospels arose out of eyewitness accounts, a carefully preserved oral tradition, and one or more "sayings" documents such as Q. Hence, the Gospel material was certainly available when Paul was writing, but he never mentions it.

It can be argued that Paul had other concerns, but this isn't really true. He repeatedly addresses hot-button issues in the churches and gives direction on Christian living to which Jesus' parables and teachings would have been directly relevant, yet he never mentions those teachings.

I recently did a study of just how tiny Judea was in Jesus' time. To give an idea, the entire territory of modern Israel, including the disputed territories, is approximately the same size as the Phoenix (Arizona) Metropolitan Area or the state of New Hampshire. The population of Jerusalem in Jesus' time is estimated at 60,000 to 80,000 with Judea estimated at 200,000 to 300,000 (these figures are scholarly estimates and there are estimates that are fantastically higher, but these are mainstream estimates). In any event, Jesus operated in quite a small area with quite a small population.

Does it seem plausible that, in an area of this size, an individual doing the things Jesus is described in the Gospels as having done would not have achieved FAR greater notice during His lifetime? Does it seem plausible that the Gospels would be almost entirely silent regarding the 30 or so years of His existence before He burst on the scene? Does it seem plausible that the Roman and Jewish historical records would barely even take notice of Him?

I see no plausible way to explain these things except to conclude that Jesus' ministry was most likely far more localized and obscure than the Gospels suggest and that it was the Resurrection that caused a certain degree of "mythologizing" to develop around the historical figure He actually had been. This is why I always take the position that Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection and pretty much NOTHING else.

I don't believe that honestly addressing puzzles such as this is in any way heretical or blasphemous or even something God would discourage. Even the question as to whether Jesus existed at all is a perfectly legitimate one; the vast, vast majority of scholars, including secular scholars, believe that He did. On the other hand, I don't believe there is anything particularly pious, faithful or pleasing to God about pretending these puzzles don't exist or trying to explain them away with glib and facile "explanations" that really don't fit the facts.
Of course the gospels mention the resurrection. What are you talking about? And when Jesus called the 72, and sent them out 2 by 2 by 2, they covered a lot more areas than Judea. I heard a scholar do the math on this once, and if 2 tell 2 who tell 2, and so on, the numbers increase vastly and quickly.
What are you saying here? That you don't believe in the virgin birth, or in Jesus at all? And let's not forget, after Paul got knocked off his horse, it was the apostles he went to, the apostles who taught him about Jesus. It sounds like you are saying Paul is inconsistent with the four gospels. He is not. This is incorrect.
 
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Gideons300

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This topic is a favorite of those who argue that Jesus is a mythic figure who never even existed, but I'm NOT approaching it from that angle. However, it's a genuine mystery that causes me to suspect that Jesus' ministry may have been quite different from the biblical portrayal.

The way the NT is organized, it's quite easy to be lulled into thinking that Paul was writing his epistles against the backdrop of the four Gospels. This is, of course, wildly incorrect. Paul wrote long before the Gospels were written and indeed died long before they were written (i.e., he is believed to have died in 62 AD vs. sometime after 70 AD as an early date for Mark, while some of the epistles are much earlier).

Yet Paul scarcely even mentions the historical Jesus. There is no mention of the Virgin Birth, Mary, the teachings and parables, the miracles or anything else that is central to the Gospels. (Paul does, of course, emphasize the Resurrection, but he doesn't mention the empty tomb.) On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus.

It's believed that the Gospels arose out of eyewitness accounts, a carefully preserved oral tradition, and one or more "sayings" documents such as Q. Hence, the Gospel material was certainly available when Paul was writing, but he never mentions it.

It can be argued that Paul had other concerns, but this isn't really true. He repeatedly addresses hot-button issues in the churches and gives direction on Christian living to which Jesus' parables and teachings would have been directly relevant, yet he never mentions those teachings.

I recently did a study of just how tiny Judea was in Jesus' time. To give an idea, the entire territory of modern Israel, including the disputed territories, is approximately the same size as the Phoenix (Arizona) Metropolitan Area or the state of New Hampshire. The population of Jerusalem in Jesus' time is estimated at 60,000 to 80,000 with Judea estimated at 200,000 to 300,000 (these figures are scholarly estimates and there are estimates that are fantastically higher, but these are mainstream estimates). In any event, Jesus operated in quite a small area with quite a small population.

Does it seem plausible that, in an area of this size, an individual doing the things Jesus is described in the Gospels as having done would not have achieved FAR greater notice during His lifetime? Does it seem plausible that the Gospels would be almost entirely silent regarding the 30 or so years of His existence before He burst on the scene? Does it seem plausible that the Roman and Jewish historical records would barely even take notice of Him?

I see no plausible way to explain these things except to conclude that Jesus' ministry was most likely far more localized and obscure than the Gospels suggest and that it was the Resurrection that caused a certain degree of "mythologizing" to develop around the historical figure He actually had been. This is why I always take the position that Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection and pretty much NOTHING else.

I don't believe that honestly addressing puzzles such as this is in any way heretical or blasphemous or even something God would discourage. Even the question as to whether Jesus existed at all is a perfectly legitimate one; the vast, vast majority of scholars, including secular scholars, believe that He did. On the other hand, I don't believe there is anything particularly pious, faithful or pleasing to God about pretending these puzzles don't exist or trying to explain them away with glib and facile "explanations" that really don't fit the facts.
In another post, you bemoan the condition of the church. Here, here. However, do not let the enemy get you focused on things that mean nothing.

God has made many mind blowing promises to us. Not for the sweet bye and bye but NOW. Are our affections set on abiding in Him and how to walk pleasing to Him, victorious over the enemy. Is our real battle how to escape the bonds of Romans 7?

Do not let your faith in His Word in any way decrease. It is our misunderstanding of it that has created our mess. We will need the confidence in God's Word in the days to come.

I hope you will forgive me if I have seemed to have spoken out of turn with you. You just remind me of someone I knew about 13 years ago. Yeah, me. LOL.

There is an answer to the mess we have made of Christianity. It is about to overtake us. Thank God.

blessings,

Gids
 
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timewerx

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Not sure that is what our Lord meant. Remember, a handful of disciples, were given the mission to preach the gospel to all nations. They did not have the time to spend much time on those who continue to reject the gospel.

Sadly, it still applies today.

We have plenty of false teachers probably because of persistence on people who rejected it the first time. The persistent approach is wrong in the first place. Jesus did not look favorably to proselytize (converting others to the Faith). Jesus did things differently.

It's the reason why Jesus often spoke in parables "only for those with ears that hear" and even avoided places where he knew everyone would ridicule Him.

His mysteries are hidden, but are revealed to the disciples. Then Jesus explain it to His disciples, AND THE DISCIPLE MATTHEW WROTE IT DOWN FOR EVERYONE TO READ! Matthew kind of let the cat out the bag!

Fortunately, not every mystery was written down. The knowledge can be misused and abused.

I think that the swine that we should not cast pearls to are to just any people but people who are enemies of the gospel.

I agree and this requires discernment OR simply use the approach in Matthew 10:14

Three years after his conversion, Paul stayed with Peter (Cephas) for 15 days (Galatians 1:18). That is a long time to pick someone's brain.

It's not just a matter of trust but they probably also conducted the movement like a form of "fraternity" or an obscure group.

At some point, Jesus called His disciples friends and no longer servants (John 15:15). So they were like "initiates" prior to that.

It would not be unusual they would treat Paul the same. To test him probably. 15 days isn't enough to know someone enough to trust. Plenty of examples to prove this and from personal experience.

Also, the Jerusalem Council sent Barnabas and Paul to the churches. This shows that the disciples full trusted them. The disciples in Jerusalem said that they were "men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts of the Apostles

They trusted Paul enough to send him but not enough with the knowledge of the "Mysteries of Heaven".

Paul received that knowledge from the Holy Spirit instead of the disciples....

My point is, there are things we are not supposed to teach, even with each other and even with people we trust. They are for the Holy Spirit to manage.

To a certain extent I can agree, but I have seen this mentality abused by liberals. We must be careful. We must always hold to truth being constant. It is unchanging. God is the source of all truth. And since God is unchanging truth is unchanging. Liberal theologians say that we need to accommodate the gospel message to the needs of modern man. So we must get rid of heaven and hell and preach the social gospel.

That is true but it's also quite possible, we have misinterpreted the scriptures. Happened a lot of times in the past when people are generally less precise in their knowledge of things of nature of how things work.

It is prophesied that our time will be the age of knowledge when people would know how things work, better methodologies, and knowledge of our history. It would certainly offer a different perspective not surprising if we misinterpreted some of the teachings in the past.

Never assume you are right without double, triple checking under critical scrutiny if your life depended on it. The mindset is often behind fatal accidents and disasters.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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This topic is a favorite of those who argue that Jesus is a mythic figure who never even existed, but I'm NOT approaching it from that angle. However, it's a genuine mystery that causes me to suspect that Jesus' ministry may have been quite different from the biblical portrayal.

The way the NT is organized, it's quite easy to be lulled into thinking that Paul was writing his epistles against the backdrop of the four Gospels. This is, of course, wildly incorrect. Paul wrote long before the Gospels were written and indeed died long before they were written (i.e., he is believed to have died in 62 AD vs. sometime after 70 AD as an early date for Mark, while some of the epistles are much earlier).

Yet Paul scarcely even mentions the historical Jesus. There is no mention of the Virgin Birth, Mary, the teachings and parables, the miracles or anything else that is central to the Gospels. (Paul does, of course, emphasize the Resurrection, but he doesn't mention the empty tomb.) On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus.

It's believed that the Gospels arose out of eyewitness accounts, a carefully preserved oral tradition, and one or more "sayings" documents such as Q. Hence, the Gospel material was certainly available when Paul was writing, but he never mentions it.

It can be argued that Paul had other concerns, but this isn't really true. He repeatedly addresses hot-button issues in the churches and gives direction on Christian living to which Jesus' parables and teachings would have been directly relevant, yet he never mentions those teachings.

I recently did a study of just how tiny Judea was in Jesus' time. To give an idea, the entire territory of modern Israel, including the disputed territories, is approximately the same size as the Phoenix (Arizona) Metropolitan Area or the state of New Hampshire. The population of Jerusalem in Jesus' time is estimated at 60,000 to 80,000 with Judea estimated at 200,000 to 300,000 (these figures are scholarly estimates and there are estimates that are fantastically higher, but these are mainstream estimates). In any event, Jesus operated in quite a small area with quite a small population.

Does it seem plausible that, in an area of this size, an individual doing the things Jesus is described in the Gospels as having done would not have achieved FAR greater notice during His lifetime? Does it seem plausible that the Gospels would be almost entirely silent regarding the 30 or so years of His existence before He burst on the scene? Does it seem plausible that the Roman and Jewish historical records would barely even take notice of Him?

I see no plausible way to explain these things except to conclude that Jesus' ministry was most likely far more localized and obscure than the Gospels suggest and that it was the Resurrection that caused a certain degree of "mythologizing" to develop around the historical figure He actually had been. This is why I always take the position that Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection and pretty much NOTHING else.

I don't believe that honestly addressing puzzles such as this is in any way heretical or blasphemous or even something God would discourage. Even the question as to whether Jesus existed at all is a perfectly legitimate one; the vast, vast majority of scholars, including secular scholars, believe that He did. On the other hand, I don't believe there is anything particularly pious, faithful or pleasing to God about pretending these puzzles don't exist or trying to explain them away with glib and facile "explanations" that really don't fit the facts.

The Bible is 100% the words of God. There are tons of evidences that back up God's Word as being divinely inspired. All of it is true. Every word.

Here is a blogger article I created that shows a ton of evidences for God's Word in being divine in origin:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

The video on the genealogy of Matthew should be enough to show you that the gospels are divinely inspired (and there is much, much more where that come from).

Anyways, a person needs to be born again not only by the Spirit (receive a new heart with new desires), but they have to be born again by water (Which is being born by receiving the Scriptures as if they were the very words of God themselves). If we as believers for a moment question God's Word the Bible as being divine, we reject what GOD says for us. It is a faith thing. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
 
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Guojing

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This topic is a favorite of those who argue that Jesus is a mythic figure who never even existed, but I'm NOT approaching it from that angle. However, it's a genuine mystery that causes me to suspect that Jesus' ministry may have been quite different from the biblical portrayal.

The way the NT is organized, it's quite easy to be lulled into thinking that Paul was writing his epistles against the backdrop of the four Gospels. This is, of course, wildly incorrect. Paul wrote long before the Gospels were written and indeed died long before they were written (i.e., he is believed to have died in 62 AD vs. sometime after 70 AD as an early date for Mark, while some of the epistles are much earlier).

Yet Paul scarcely even mentions the historical Jesus. There is no mention of the Virgin Birth, Mary, the teachings and parables, the miracles or anything else that is central to the Gospels. (Paul does, of course, emphasize the Resurrection, but he doesn't mention the empty tomb.) On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus.

It's believed that the Gospels arose out of eyewitness accounts, a carefully preserved oral tradition, and one or more "sayings" documents such as Q. Hence, the Gospel material was certainly available when Paul was writing, but he never mentions it.

It can be argued that Paul had other concerns, but this isn't really true. He repeatedly addresses hot-button issues in the churches and gives direction on Christian living to which Jesus' parables and teachings would have been directly relevant, yet he never mentions those teachings.

I recently did a study of just how tiny Judea was in Jesus' time. To give an idea, the entire territory of modern Israel, including the disputed territories, is approximately the same size as the Phoenix (Arizona) Metropolitan Area or the state of New Hampshire. The population of Jerusalem in Jesus' time is estimated at 60,000 to 80,000 with Judea estimated at 200,000 to 300,000 (these figures are scholarly estimates and there are estimates that are fantastically higher, but these are mainstream estimates). In any event, Jesus operated in quite a small area with quite a small population.

Does it seem plausible that, in an area of this size, an individual doing the things Jesus is described in the Gospels as having done would not have achieved FAR greater notice during His lifetime? Does it seem plausible that the Gospels would be almost entirely silent regarding the 30 or so years of His existence before He burst on the scene? Does it seem plausible that the Roman and Jewish historical records would barely even take notice of Him?

I see no plausible way to explain these things except to conclude that Jesus' ministry was most likely far more localized and obscure than the Gospels suggest and that it was the Resurrection that caused a certain degree of "mythologizing" to develop around the historical figure He actually had been. This is why I always take the position that Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection and pretty much NOTHING else.

I don't believe that honestly addressing puzzles such as this is in any way heretical or blasphemous or even something God would discourage. Even the question as to whether Jesus existed at all is a perfectly legitimate one; the vast, vast majority of scholars, including secular scholars, believe that He did. On the other hand, I don't believe there is anything particularly pious, faithful or pleasing to God about pretending these puzzles don't exist or trying to explain them away with glib and facile "explanations" that really don't fit the facts.

Scripture to help you understand

Galatians 1

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

God did not tell Paul to visit and learn from the 12 apostles, those that have walked with Jesus in the flesh and have been taught by him over a period of 3 years.

Instead he directed Paul to Arabia, where Mount Sinai is, and the ascended Christ himself revealed to him all those mysteries Paul will later write in his epistles.

Conclusion: The ascended Christ have a different message to the Gentiles, one that is not based on the gospel of the kingdom which was the main gospel preached by both Jesus and the 12 in the 4 gospels.

Finally Paul wrote clearly in 2 Cor 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Based on the earlier passage in Galatians as well as what you observed, Paul urge us to know Christ no longer after the flesh, that means whatever he taught in the 4 Gospels was not directed to the Gentile believers.
 
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Bob Crowley

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My personal take - Paul wasn't a personal disciple of Christ when Christ was actually walking and talking in Israel. So he could not give an "eye-witness" account of the Gospel events. Also being a ex-Pharisee, he'd have been far more interested in the theological underpinnings of Christianity when he did become a Christian, rather than a step my step recounting of Christ's literal ministry.

If there had been a fifth "Gospel of Paul", all he'd have done was reinvent the wheel, which others had already described at some length. Obviously for him to write the way he did, his audience wasn't entirely ignorant of the claims of Christ's resurrection. The darkening of the sky when the sun didn't shine would have been fresh in the memories of many people, even if they had lived some distance away.

As far as I'm concerned the fact that Christ came to a minor power, in a small country, under foreign domination, with a small population, was crucified as a criminal, kept no written records Himself entrusting oral tradition to keep his story alive for decades before it was even written down, and yet still had the confidence to say "Heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will never pass away" is a testament to His confidence as to just Who He was. His words are still with us today.

Anybody else in the same situation would have passed into historical oblivion two thousand years ago. The Romans crucified thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people (they weren't the only ones - they got the method from the Carthaginians, and other Middle Eastern regimes used it, in various forms, including Alexander the Great).

How many of their names do we know about, and what record do we have of what they said and what they did?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Paul wrote letters to established Churches. If I write a letter to the CS Lewis society on one of his works, I am not going to mention his birthday or much of his life, unless I am disputing something. Both the writer and recipient know the basic facts. The nature of texts would imply such, so if Paul had constantly referenced minutiae of Christ's life, that would have been suspect. He only references something when making a point, such as when talking of the Resurrection.

Such an argument from silence is utterly facile, and against historical method. This is why Christ Myth fails peer review and is a discredited lunatic fringe amongst historians. It is not a weakness, unless you are bent on commiting special pleading.
 
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AvisG

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Well, I'm happy to see that my somewhat obscure topic has generated this much interest. Just some quick responses:
As for the 500 that Paul mentions, I find it even odder that no one other than Matthew mentioned THIS incredible occurrence .. Matthew 27:52-53, don't you?
Indeed, I do find that EXTREMELY odd. Odd enough to make question whether it happened.

My final thought about this (for now ;)), is this, how many "Gospels" do we really need? IOW, how many more Books of the Bible do we need that teach the very same things that the Gospels do? God seemed to believe that the 4 would do nicely, yes?
You may know that some of the early Church Fathers speculated that the number of Gospels is symbolic for "perfection" or "completeness."

But of course the puzzle isn't "Why didn't Paul write another Gospel?" but rather "Why is the historical Jesus so curiously missing from his epistles when the material that later formed the Gospels was in circulation at the time?"

Of course the gospels mention the resurrection. What are you talking about?

Well, uh, what are YOU talking about? I didn't say the Resurrection wasn't mentioned in the Gospels - I'm not completely delusional. I plainly said that the appearance to the 500 that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians isn't mentioned in any of the Gospels - a truly astounding omission. Perhaps try to read more carefully before leaping into Response Mode?

My personal take - Paul wasn't a personal disciple of Christ when Christ was actually walking and talking in Israel. So he could not give an "eye-witness" account of the Gospel events.

Sure, Paul was not an eyewitness to Jesus' ministry. But the question isn't "Why didn't Paul give an eyewitness account of Jesus' ministry?" or even "Why didn't Paul write a Gospel?" Scholars are in agreement that an oral tradition based on eyewitness accounts, which would later provide the foundation of the Gospels, WAS in circulation when Paul was writing. The puzzle is "Why, in offering correction, instruction and guidance to the churches, did Paul never mention the historical Jesus and specifically parables and teachings that seemingly would have been directly relevant to that correction, instruction and guidance?"

Such an argument from silence is utterly facile, and against historical method. This is why Christ Myth fails peer review and is a discredited lunatic fringe amongst historians. It is not a weakness, unless you are bent on commiting special pleading.

I am not making ANY argument regarding Paul's silence about the historical Jesus. I specifically said that. I am merely highlighting Paul's silence and a couple of other undeniable realities as "puzzles" that I find interesting and worth thinking about.

Yes, the "Jesus Myth" view is rejected by the vast majority of biblical scholars, including secular ones. But it is not a "lunatic fringe" position. Robert M. Price and scholars like him are scarcely "lunatics." I was surprised myself to find Price among the five very prominent NT scholars whose views are discussed and debated in The Historical Jesus: Five Views, which is part of the respected Spectrum Multiview Book Series, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002YFC1OM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1.

I'm not defending the Jesus Myth view by any means. But as I have made clear on other threads, one of my pet peeves is with that variety of Christian apologetics which mischaracterizes opposing views and fails to confront them honestly.
 
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AvisG

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The Bible is 100% the words of God. There are tons of evidences that back up God's Word as being divinely inspired. All of it is true. Every word.
Sure, that is one perspective. It isn't my perspective or the perspective of vast swaths of believers. It is, in fact, a fairly recent perspective. There can be quite a wide gulf between "divinely inspired" and "100% the words of God, all of it is true, every word." I am at the "divinely inspired" end of that spectrum.

The video on the genealogy of Matthew should be enough to show you that the gospels are divinely inspired (and there is much, much more where that come from).

Anyways, a person needs to be born again not only by the Spirit (receive a new heart with new desires), but they have to be born again by water (Which is being born by receiving the Scriptures as if they were the very words of God themselves). If we as believers for a moment question God's Word the Bible as being divine, we reject what GOD says for us. It is a faith thing. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

I love the assumptions that are made at places such as this. No, I really do. I know you mean well, but come on. I was born again in 1971, I served with Campus Crusade, I attended Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, I have been steeped in heavy-duty philosophy, theology and apologetics for decades. I'm not strutting my stuff, just making the point that Sunday School lessons aren't necessary.

As I said to someone else above, your position is more of an "avoidance" of the puzzles I have highlighted rather than an explanation for them: "The Bible is 100% God's word, it says what He wanted it to say, and I don't have to think about why it says what it says." OK, fine - that flows from your understanding of the Bible, but it doesn't flow from mine.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I am not making ANY argument regarding Paul's silence about the historical Jesus. I specifically said that. I am merely highlighting Paul's silence and a couple of other undeniable realities as "puzzles" that I find interesting and worth thinking about.

Yes, the "Jesus Myth" view is rejected by the vast majority of biblical scholars, including secular ones. But it is not a "lunatic fringe" position. Robert M. Price and scholars like him are scarcely "lunatics." I was surprised myself to find Price among the five very prominent NT scholars whose views are discussed and debated in The Historical Jesus: Five Views, which is part of the respected Spectrum Multiview Book Series, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002YFC1OM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1.

I'm not defending the Jesus Myth view by any means. But as I have made clear on other threads, one of my pet peeves is with that variety of Christian apologetics which mischaracterizes opposing views and fails to confront them honestly.
As I said, I don't consider it puzzling at all. It is expected from the source material. Does Cicero's letters to Atticus tell us anything in depth about Stoic philosophy? No, as he mentions it in passing, but that is not what he is writing about. Paul isn't arguing for Jesus' reality, but writing about practical aspects of faith.

Anyway, Christ Myth is a lunatic fringe, no matter if you think a particular proponent credible or not. Mainstream scholars overwhelmingly reject it, to the point that it is functionally ignored. I mean, prominent mythicists like Carrier have been publically distanced from by their alma mater, and they invariably fail peer review, or only passes in a very limited form. If you prefer, we can drop 'lunatic' for extreme fringe movement, but that is just a nicety. The arguments are weak, and amount to special pleading. As much as proponents harp on 'historical-critical theory', they invariably have to adopt systems like Bayes theory or radically alter understanding. Christ Myth is to 1st century History as what Young Earth Creationism is to Evolutionary Biology. You have to completely alter your understanding of all the evidence, and jettison almost every standard principle. By those same arguments, you could argue Scipio invented, or Socrates. It is simply not tenable. I don't see why Christian Apologists are supposed to play nice, when this is functional idiocy and little more - even by completely secular standards.
 
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AvisG

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As I said, I don't consider it puzzling at all. It is expected from the source material. Does Cicero's letters to Atticus tell us anything in depth about Stoic philosophy? No, as he mentions it in passing, but that is not what he is writing about.
OK, you don't - but many, many scholars have, as I discovered when I looked into the matter. We are not talking about "Why didn't Paul regurgitate all the details of Jesus' life?" We are talking about (to repeat myself) "Why, in offering correction, instruction and guidance to the churches, did Paul never even mention the historical Jesus and specifically the parables and teachings that seemingly would have been directly relevant to that correction, instruction and guidance?" That to me is a legitimate puzzle, as is the failure of the Gospels even to take notice of Paul's reference to a Resurrection appearance to 500 witnesses at once. Not something that challenges my faith, but a legitimate puzzle.

Anyway, Christ Myth is a lunatic fringe, no matter if you think a particular proponent credible or not. Mainstream scholars overwhelmingly reject it, to the point that it is functionally ignored. I mean, prominent mythicists like Carrier have been publically distanced from by their alma mater, and they invariably fail peer review, or only passes in a very limited form. If you prefer, we can drop 'lunatic' for extreme fringe movement, but that is just a nicety. The arguments are weak, and amount to special pleading. As much as proponents harp on 'historical-critical theory', they invariably have to adopt systems like Bayes theory or radically alter understanding. Christ Myth is to 1st century History as what Young Earth Creationism is to Evolutionary Biology. You have to completely alter your understanding of all the evidence, and jettison almost every standard principle. By those same arguments, you could argue Scipio invented, or Socrates. It is simply not tenable. I don't see why Christian Apologists are supposed to play nice, when this is functional idiocy and little more - even by completely secular standards.
In the HISTORICAL JESUS text that I cited, the other four mainstream scholars confront Price's essay directly and forthrightly demonstrate the flaws in his methodology and conclusions. No one blithely dismisses his position as "lunatic" or unworthy.

I hesitate to keep discussing the Jesus Myth position because I said at the outset that I did not hold it and was certainly not promoting it, but the RationalWiki article is actually quite good, as are several related articles in Wikipedia: Jesus myth theory - RationalWiki

As the articles explain, the phrase "Jesus Myth" covers a lot of territory, from "Jesus never existed at all - He is a purely mythological figure" to "the NT portrayal of Jesus is more mythological than historical" to some lesser understanding. By the standards of the most wild-eyed Bible literalists, some of what I have suggested in my OP probably falls into the Jesus Myth category even though I do not regard myself as a Jesus Myther at all.
 
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In the HISTORICAL JESUS text that I cited, the other four mainstream scholars confront Price's essay directly and forthrightly demonstrate the flaws in his methodology and conclusions. No one blithely dismisses his position as "lunatic" or unworthy.
If four other scholars can easily point out the flaws in methodology and conclusions, that is the very definition of a 'lunatic fringe' position. You are labouring the point. As I said, you can drop the lunatic if you wish, but the position remains easily dismissed. It need not be taken all that seriously.

OK, you don't - but many, many scholars have, as I discovered when I looked into the matter. We are not talking about "Why didn't Paul regurgitate all the details of Jesus' life?" We are talking about (to repeat myself) "Why, in offering correction, instruction and guidance to the churches, did Paul never even mention the historical Jesus and specifically the parables and teachings that seemingly would have been directly relevant to that correction, instruction and guidance?" That to me is a legitimate puzzle, as is the failure of the Gospels even to take notice of Paul's reference to a Resurrection appearance to 500 witnesses at once. Not something that challenges my faith, but a legitimate puzzle.
Then please demonstrate why he should have. You are making the claim it is odd, so please show your reasoning. The Pauline corpus is not quoting the gospels, but neither is it in opposition to it. I don't see how it would particularly enhance his argument, when his readers are presumably recent converts who were probably unaware of much of it. He rather quotes Greek writers, in common Hellenistic culture.

I could say it is odd that Leibnitz and Newton both developed Calculus separately, or odd that European Feudalism and the Japanese variety seems so alike. This is more an argument for similar underlying structures. If Paul or the Gospels were referencing the exact same to one another, that would more argue for an Hegellian Synthetical structure. That both were valued by the same nascent movement rather argues both as independant sources of the same, therefore.
 
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