I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore

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Carl Emerson

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For the record, I haven't attended an institutional church for years but had a clear mandate to establish fellowship from the home base.

The Holy Spirit within is critical to walking with Him regardless of the fact that many fabricate what He is saying.
 
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AvisG

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I'll do you one better. I only need 4 words:

The problem is you.

I don't need more words because all anyone has to do is look at your words, they say it all for me.
And that's EXACTLY what I understood your 11-word post to be saying, so I believe we have come full circle.
 
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topher694

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And that's EXACTLY what I understood your 11-word post to be saying, so I believe we have come full circle.
Ah, but you don't truly understand it or you wouldn't be doing it... So the circle continues
 
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I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.


Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.


We were promised to see church apostasy in the last days (The last letter from Jesus to the churches ) which are rich in wealth but forgot Him and are actually poor because all their works will be burnt up at the judgement.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.


Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.

I have seen all sorts of people say all sorts of things here in the name of Christian ideals. Not just the premarital sex is evil, divorce is bad, same-sex couples are going to hell, non-Christians are less than, and the other “typical” stuff you tend to run in to with the conservative set... Stuff that is genuinely shocking, like letting kids die if they are majorly ill and uninsured, executing women who get abortions, saying homosexuals are all pedophiles, there isn’t such a thing as rape, domestic abuse is ok in certain situations, and various other forms of racism, xenophobia, sexism, elitist stuff.

At the end of the day, I can’t control how anybody “Christians” except for me. Focusing on anything else is a waste of energy that draws me away from my journey. My advice to you is to do the same. Your ability to draw close to God and represent your faith does not depend on others.
 
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NeedyFollower

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I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.


Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.

But it is familiar , comfortable and traditional . Yes , I believe constantine poured money into the church and then with the building of buildings and the need for salaries , you end up with a business ( whether you want one or not . )
It is too big to tackle . When the reformation occurred , there was one church in which to struggle against ( the catholic ). Now , you are up against many churches and a multi-trillion dollar industry . ( The Dove awards and christian entertainers , christian colleges , publishing , etc. )
You are seeing history repeat itself . It happened in Micah's day . See Micah 3 ...starting at verse 9 . It happened in Jesus day ...there was an actual need for money at the temple but hardness of heart and desire for a comfortable life via religion drove out the Love of God and neighbor . It is called the american dream and supported by the congregation . ( In Jesus' day the congregation was called " the chief among the people " . ) So brother , what you are seeing and hearing is pretty much clear . This is why Jesus tells the church to repent in revelation ..He does not tell the nation nor unbelievers because repentance is only available to us believers . The good news is that if Jesus tells the church to repent , then repentance is possible . The bad news is , it will be a bit of a poison pill for the leaders ...same as the silver smiths who traded in images of Dianna .
 
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AvisG

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At the end of the day, I can’t control how anybody “Christians” except for me. Focusing on anything else is a waste of energy that draws me away from my journey. My advice to you is to do the same. Your ability to draw close to God and represent your faith does not depend on others.

Bingo again. I am heartened that at least some people "get it" and don't go immediately into Irrational Defense Mode.
 
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AvisG

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But it is familiar , comfortable and traditional . Yes , I believe constantine poured money into the church and then with the building of buildings and the need for salaries , you end up with a business ( whether you want one or not . )
It is too big to tackle . When the reformation occurred , there was one church in which to struggle against ( the catholic ). Now , you are up against many churches and a multi-trillion dollar industry . ( The Dove awards and christian entertainers , christian colleges , publishing , etc. )
You are seeing history repeat itself . It happened in Micah's day . See Micah 3 ...starting at verse 9 . It happened in Jesus day ...there was an actual need for money at the temple but hardness of heart and desire for a comfortable life via religion drove out the Love of God and neighbor . It is called the american dream and supported by the congregation . ( In Jesus' day the congregation was called " the chief among the people " . ) So brother , what you are seeing and hearing is pretty much clear . This is why Jesus tells the church to repent in revelation ..He does not tell the nation nor unbelievers because repentance is only available to us believers . The good news is that if Jesus tells the church to repent , then repentance is possible . The bad news is , it will be a bit of a poison pill for the leaders ...same as the silver smiths who traded in images of Dianna .
Bingo again!
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Bingo again. I am heartened that at least some people "get it" and don't go immediately into Irrational Defense Mode.

Life gets a lot easier when you realize you can’t control other people’s bad attitudes, only your response to their bad attitudes. It gets almost painfully easy when you realize how much power ignoring their awfulness gives you and takes away from them.
 
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AvisG

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Life gets a lot easier when you realize you can’t control other people’s bad attitudes, only your response to their bad attitudes. It gets almost painfully easy when you realize how much power ignoring their awfulness gives you and takes away from them.
As Elvis Costello sang, "I used to be disgusted, now I try to amused." Forums such as this are a challenge to that perspective - which may be their primary value! As a retired lawyer with 38 years of adversarial wrangling under my belt, snarkiness is now almost part of my DNA - but I do try to tread as lightly as I can.
 
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No, Kierkegaard was using "Christendom" in pretty much the same sense that I am using "Christianity," with the exception that he was talking about the state-sponsored "Christianity" of Denmark whereas I am talking about organized Christianity as a whole. Kierkegaard asked if it was even possible for someone to become a Christian when born into a country dominated by this easy, superficial, pseudo-Christianity.
If you're indeed attempting to imitate Kierkegaard's form by presenting allegations against some non-Denmarkian and amorphous sense of "Christianity" which you feel you just must harp upon, then you may want to actually quote Mr. K if you're going to continue to draw upon him as you say you are doing. Being that I'm presently reading him, it could help your case to show us that you're not just emoting your frustrations. It might also aid the rest of us in taking you seriously and not just seeing you as some old fogey who's losing his marbles.

Otherwise, at best, all I can do is think that you're committing some form of the Fallacy of Division, and I for one am not going to take your allusion and apply it firmly to myself, whatever my shortcomings may be, nor will I apply to very many of my fellow Christians here on CF, and if you're overall point in this thread is threadbare, then your point here is next to being moot.
 
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It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry
To the best of my ability to be able to remember, I have never accepted a penny for myself. In fact I use to buy books and magazines with my own money to give away to people. A problem with this is that I do not have much empathy for so called missionaries trying to collect money for their latest mission trip. I figure if I do not need their money, why do they need mine? Actually when we travel we can buy, sell and trade. So it is pretty easy to come up with any money we need to cover our expenses. At least it was back in the day when they allowed two suitcases and up to 90 pounds. God provided and I did not need to ask anyone for anything. In fact I had enough to be of help to those that were in need. Mostly I fed their soul with material that I felt would help them in their christian walk.
 
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Robin Mauro

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I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.


Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.
I understand your anger; it is God's anger; it is why Jesus overturned the tables. And I too, am tired of being sold things at every turn. But don't forget; there is "the church", and then there is the church; Christ's body: believers in every church denomination who are quietly doing good for others, and repenting of their sins, and worshipping the Father; striving to be more like Christ.
So do not be disheartened, even though it is disheartening. The real church is operating throughout the entire world like a bloodstream in a body, and Jesus warned of these.
And all "evangelicals" are NOT right-wing. That has become a catch word for anything non-catholic.
Just don't lose your love, your faith, your hope. God is working it all out, in spite of how it appears.
God bless.
 
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Swan7

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I would also add be careful about this “anger” you feel. It can be used against you and I can certainly see this happening. Satan seeks to devour, and the only way to counter that is by running to God. :yellowheart:
 
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Gideons300

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I hate to admit it, but I smiled as I read your rant. On a post I have shared, this exact subject is in the crosshairs, LOL. Here is a snippet.

"We will have to agree to disagree here as to the health of His church. . We have multiple millions walking in defeat, birthing others who also walk in defeat. We may be active for God. But we are not God driven. God possessed.

Abiding in Christ, along with its promised not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, is thought of as an 'unattainable goal'. Boy, are we wrong.

We are those who have a name that we live, but we are healed only slightly. We talk of peace. The problem is, few possess it.

We draw near Him with our lips, but our hearts are OURS. All that is about to change. Religious Christianity is about to meet abiding in Christ. Some will desire it, some will say the old is better.

blessings,

Gideon
 
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I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.


Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.
And yet God's church is still growing. "... and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it (Matthew 16:18)."
 
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Carl Emerson

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And yet God's church is still growing. "... and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it (Matthew 16:18)."

In the West are we really getting conversion growth?
 
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A_Thinker

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Bingo again. I am heartened that at least some people "get it" and don't go immediately into Irrational Defense Mode.
Well ... how should one respond to irrational Attack Mode ?
 
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A_Thinker

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But it is familiar , comfortable and traditional . Yes , I believe constantine poured money into the church and then with the building of buildings and the need for salaries , you end up with a business ( whether you want one or not . )

It is too big to tackle. When the reformation occurred, there was one church in which to struggle against (catholic). Now, you are up against many churches and a multi-trillion dollar industry. (The Dove awards and christian entertainers, christian colleges, publishing, etc.)
I guess I don't understand.

When people live their lives as christians, would you not expect these things to be generated (i.e. christian music, christian education, publishing, media, etc.) ?

The structure of the Church was modeled in the New Testament. Within it, God placed bishops, teachers, elders, prophets, apostles, those with various gifts of hospitality, discernment, healing, miracles, giving, etc. The church was presented as a body ... with various parts ... which work together ... to constitute the whole. Paul collected offerings from the churches of his day ... to support outreach, and christian ministry. The Church council in Jerusalem functioned to give Christianity its first instructions ... other than what Christ had already given.

And God sees the Church's future as His spotless bride, rescued from the world. Are there specific offenses which occur in the Church ... which must somehow be purged ? Of course ... the same was true in the first century of the Church's existence. But, of course, ... that is the story of the Church here on earth. Of perfection ... no, but of faith and struggle to find and stay true to the way of our dear leader.

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, ... and though I am certain of the fact that Satan attacks, I am also certain of God's ability to keep His Church ...
 
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