Biblical View of Mary the mother of Jesus *Nondenominational Forum*

Ozarks Prodigal

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Here we go again! Another Catholic bashing thread about to arise out of the ashes! :doh:

No Catholic bash meant... I simply mean that I can find no scriptural basis for her status. You have scripture against scripture support for her status as stated by your church, I'm open to considering your viewpoint. I'm not in these forums to teach or preach... I'm a Bible student, not a scholar. I'm here to learn, as long as scripture backs up what's said in a logical and verifiable manner.

Again, no disrespect meant...
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No Catholic bash meant... I simply mean that I can find no scriptural basis for her status. You have scripture against scripture support for her status as stated by your church, I'm open to considering your viewpoint. I'm not in these forums to teach or preach... I'm a Bible student, not a scholar. I'm here to learn, as long as scripture backs up what's said in a logical and verifiable manner.

Again, no disrespect meant...
A lot of dis-respectful doctrines are used and taught and practiced by billions of souls.
For many, it is a small part of a much larger false gospel with many many more false teachings and false doctrines like Jesus opposed in the religious leaders all the time , so much worse by association also.
 
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rakovsky

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Here is another song of praise sung in the OT by a woman & a man, Deborah, a judge in Israel & Barak, son of Abinoam, a general of Israeli forces.

Judges 5:3ff Listen, O kings! Give ear, O princes! I will sing to the LORD; I will sing praise to the LORD, the God of Israel. In the days of Shamgar son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were deserted & the travelers took the byways. Life in the villages ceased; it ended in Israel, until I, Deborah, arose, A MOTHER IN ISRAEL.

8When they chose new gods, then war came to their gates. Not a shield or spear was found
among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with the princes of Israel, with the volunteers among the people. Bless the LORD!

From the heavens the stars fought; from their courses they fought against Sisera. The River Kishon swept them away, the ancient river, the River Kishon. March on, O my soul, in strength!

Then the hooves of horses thundered—the mad galloping of his stallions. ‘Curse Meroz,’ says the angel of the LORD. ‘Bitterly curse her inhabitants; for they did not come to help the LORD,
to help the LORD against the mighty.’

24MOST BLESSED AMONG WOMEN IS JAEL, the wife of Heber the Kenite, MOST BLESSED OF TENT-DWELLING WOMEN. He asked for water & she gave him milk. In a magnificent bowl she brought him curdled milk. She reached for the tent peg, her right hand for the workman’s hammer. She struck Sisera & crushed his skull...At her feet he collapsed, he fell & there he lay still...

So may all your enemies perish, O LORD, but may those who love You shine like the sun at its brightest.” And the land had rest for forty years.

Here is another miraculous story of women, Deborah the judge of Israel & Jael, the most blessed of tent-dwelling women. Israel had 40,000 warriors against a very large army led by Sisera. Not a spear or shield was even found among the Israeli army! Yet both physical & spiritual battle occurred at this time. The stars of heaven fought, often indicating spiritual warfare between God's angelic army & the devil's army of the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenlies.

Even THE ANGEL OF THE LORD was involved, the Captain of the armies of God. (Joshua 5:13-15).

And Deborah was a MOTHER IN ISRAEL. And Jael was MOST BLESSED AMONG WOMEN, the most blessed among tent-dwelling women, because she took out the commander of the enemies of God's people & turned the battle around. Amazing!

Luke 1:13-17 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son & you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy & delight to you & many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord.
You, Mathetes, are making a good point in your OP. The story of Yael, Deborah, and Sisera is used apparently in Luke's gospel implicitly as a prefigurement of the angel Gabriel's praise of Mary. The praises are so similar that a connection stands out, and other writers have seen this connection too.

A major question that I want to ask is ho closely do the elements in Yael's and Sisera's story match up with the Gospel story in order to serve as a prefigurement? More specifically, whereas the nail in the story, being an unusual choice of weapon, could be easily seen as a prefigurement of the nails in the crucifixion. In that case, what might the nailing of Sisera's temples represent? My own theory is that it could represent the opening/gouging of the eras to hear God's word like in Psalm 40:6, but I am not very sure of my interpretation. What do you think of this option? Does it sound like a weak theory? I laid it out here:
Did Sisera's temples or Jotham's escape prefigure the Gospel story?
 
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Mathetes66

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Thank you, Rakovsky, for your questions & the effort you put in studying the assumption or hypothesis you have concerning whether the story of Yael & Sisera & Jotham is a prefigurement of the gospel story in Luke of Mary & what the angel Gabriel told her or not & does that apply to the crucifixion. It is always good to be an Acts 17:11 believer in searching the Scriptures to see if our theories are biblical or not.

It is one thing to ask about a theory we may have & investigate whether it is true. That is when we go to Scripture to see WHAT IS SAYS or if 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact is confirmed.' It is another issue, though, if we contend that our theory is true & then try to find Scripture to support our theory. I believe that is what you are trying to do & here is why.

Rakovsky: "A major question that I want to ask is how closely do the elements in Yael's & Sisera's story match up with the Gospel story in order to serve as a prefigurement? More specifically, whereas the nail in the story, being an unusual choice of weapon, could be easily seen as a prefigurement of the nails in the crucifixion. In that case, what might the nailing of Sisera's temples represent? My own theory is that it could represent the opening/gouging of the ears to hear God's word like in Psalm 40:6, but I am not very sure of my interpretation. What do you think of this option? Does it sound like a weak theory?"

For example, Psalm 40:6 DOES have a NT fulfillment (but not in Luke concerning Mary nor the actual crucifixion of Jesus) because it is actually used in the passage in Hebrews 10:5 & the meaning is interpreted, so we know what is meant by what it says. It isn't used either in Psalm 40 or in Hebrews 10 to what you are trying to 'insert' into the text.

This passage is a difficult one to begin with, but can be explained how it is used in Heb 10:5 if one follows the Hebrew metaphor & how the Holy Spirit led the writer of Hebrews to 'explain' it. The word 'gouge' is not an accurate translation or meaning but the idea is to dig so that the ear is open to hear God's word.

The ear is one of the key aspects of one's whole body. If we hear & obey God's Word, our whole body responds. So Rashi, one of the great Jewish rabbi's, said that Ps 40:6 is the preparation of one's whole body in service to God, in obeying His Word. One's ear was a key aspect that had to be consecrated by priests & metaphorically stood for the whole body in responding to obedience to God's word by what they heard. They needed a cleared out hearing of the ear to hear only what God was saying.

Thus it is applied to Christ in the sense of God preparing a body for Christ, to One whose ear was opened to obeying all the commands of the Father & teaching with authority the Word of God. His body would be THE ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE, not the continual sacrifices under the Levitical system.

Thus, what you assert is not in either text nor elsewhere in Scripture to be used to try & explain your theory. It is not wise to read things into texts based on our speculations, if Scripture does not confirm it, by at least two or three witnesses. Here two witnesses are given by God's Spirit as to how the OT passage of Ps 40:6 is fulfilled in the NT passage. I hope that is helpful to you.

"More specifically, whereas the nail in the story, being an unusual choice of weapon, could be easily seen as a prefigurement of the nails in the crucifixion. In that case, what might the nailing of Sisera's temples represent?"

Second, you again try to read something into the text that isn't there & try to apply it to completely different contexts concerning Mary & concerning the crucifixion. Scripture doesn't show the Yael passage to be a prefigurement or a fulfillment. Nothing in the Mary passage remotely fits your theory. You are reading way too much into it that just isn't found in Scripture.

For example, Yael used ONE nail pounded through the SKULL of Sisera to kill him & deliver the nation of Israel.

Christ had THREE nails used, one for each hand & one for his feet & also had a spear thrust into His side. No nail was put through Christ's skull. Sisera was an evil king. No spear thrust went through his side. Christ was a holy & innocent king. There is no correlation to what you speculate & what Scripture says & teaches.

The difference is the difference between doing exegesis vs eisogesis. Hopefully this will be helpful to you in your desire to search the Scriptures & lovingly obey our Lord. We cannot understand the Scriptures unless the Lord opens our minds to understand them. They are spiritually discerned, as Paul explains in I Cor 2.

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ & Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear & in much trembling. And my speech & my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit & of power (authority), SO THAT your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

6However, we speak wisdom among those WHO ARE MATURE, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has REVEALED them TO us THROUGH HIS SPIRIT.

For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13These things we also speak (impart), not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing (judging together) spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Robertson's Word Pictures in the NT:

"Paul is stating the very words 'we speak' is the very utterance of the revelation which he understood (from the Lord, being led by the Spirit to do so). There is revelation, illumination & inspiration from the Spirit. Paul claims therefore the help of the Holy Spirit for the reception of the revelation, for the understanding of it & for the expression of it. "

"So then Paul claims the help of the Holy Spirit in the utterance (laloumen) of the words, "which the Spirit teacheth (en didaktoi pneumato), "in words taught by the Spirit." Paul means that the help of the Holy Spirit in the utterance of the revelation extends to the words. They remain today after nearly 20 centuries throbbing with the power of the Spirit of God, dynamic with life for the problems of today as when Paul wrote them for the needs of the believers in his time."

"If pneumatikoi be taken as neuter plural (associative instrumental case after sun in sunkrinonte), the (sense) idea (following) would be, "combining spiritual ideas (pneumatika) with spiritual words" (pneumatikoi). This again makes good sense in harmony with the first part of verse."

That is why we have the INDWELLING Holy Spirit to lead us & guide us into all the truth. That is why we must be mature & have spiritually mature spiritual leaders: elders/presbyters/overseers/bishops & apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors & teachers, gifted & able to assist us in giving the sense (meaning) of a passage of Scripture. We are dealing with God's Word! We must treat it reverently, respectfully, not adulterating it with our own human wisdom & imaginations. That is what Paul was getting at in I Cor 2. We are to maturely judge together the wisdom of man vs the wisdom of the Spirit & apply sound & accurate handling of God's very words by means of spiritual discernment & illumination from the Holy Spirit.

An impossible task on our own inclinations or wisdom. Even the Apostle Peter says this concerning the Scripture that Paul wrote (all his epistles):

2 Peter 3:14-18 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless & blameless & regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the UNTAUGHT & UNSTABLE DISTORT, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your GUARD so that you are not CARRIED AWAY by the error of unprincipled men & fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now & to the day of eternity. Amen.

What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis? | GotQuestions.org

Definition of Exegesis: “The act of explaining a text.”The explanation is done through careful analysis of the text.The explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. Not subjective: “What do I feel about the text? It is legitimate interpretation which "reads out of' the text what the original author or authors meant to convey.

Definition is Eisegesis: Interpretation of a passage based on a subjective,non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into”which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, He leads the text, not the text leading him. Eisegesis, on the other hand, reads into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks he finds there. It expresses the reader's own subjective ideas, not the meaning which is in the text.

2 Timothy 2:15 commands us to use exegetical methods: “Present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” An honest student of the Bible will be an exegete, allowing the text to speak for itself. Eisegesis easily lends itself to error, as the would-be interpreter attempts to align the text with his own preconceived notions. Exegesis allows us to agree with the Bible; eisegesis seeks to force the Bible to agree with us.

The process of exegesis involves:
a. Observation:what does the passage say?
b. Correlation: how does the passage relate to the rest of the Bible?
c. Interpretation:what does the passage mean by what is actually says & if there is any other Scripture directly correlating with it, to confirm it by the 'mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses.'
d.Application:how should this passage affect my life?

Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text & often leads to a misinterpretation. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

The process of Eisegesis:
a.Imagination:what idea do I want to present & add into the text?
b.Exploration:what Scripture passagea seem to fit with my idea?
c.Application:what does my idea mean?

The Berean's Desk: Exegesis vs. Eisegesis

The word "exegesis" comes from the Greek verb εξηγησις (from εξηγεισθαι "to lead out"), which means "to draw out." Simply put, exegesis is about drawing out from the text the true meaning of a biblical verse or passage. “Exegesis does not take a quote from the Bible to prove the Bible. It scientifically scrutinizes the text according to historical context, cultural context, literary context and usage, multiple languages that might have been used, archeological finds, etc.

A good way to support your thesis is to ignore all evidence to the contrary." Exegesis, then, is an investigation. It attempts to determine the historical, cultural & geographical context within which a particular verse exists.

The questions we always have to be asking are: Who is doing the speaking? Who is being spoken to? What is being said? What is going on here? When observing the external context, proper exegesis examines the surrounding verses (immediate context), the surrounding chapters (sectional context), and other passages (canonical context).

It lets the Bible speak for & interpret itself. Today's reader must try to enter the world of the biblical author & seek to understand what the author was saying. If we fail to pay attention to the world in which the Bible was written, we will simply read biblical texts & infuse them with meaning from our social world & circumstances. "The interpreter must come to the Bible as open as possible, without any theological bias or presuppositions." Exegesis utilizes "hermeneutics," which means "the art and science of biblical interpretation."

In contrast to this, what many do instead is what some theologians refer to as "front-loading;" i.e., they read their own personal, political, or ideological beliefs back into the Bible instead of reading out from the Bible what the original authors were saying. This process of reading one's own presuppositions, agendas, biases, and/or ideas into the interpretation of the Bible is called "eisegesis," from the Greek εις, which means "into."

"It is the interpreter’s job to represent the text, "not the prejudices, feelings, judgments, or concerns of the exegete. To indulge in the latter is to engage in eisegesis, 'a reading into' a text what the reader wants it to say."" Eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his/her interpretation INTO & ONTO the text. There is only ever one interpretation to a text; but there may be many applications to a text.

Personal experience does not interpret or determine what the Word of God says. Personal feelings and opinions do not interpret or determine what the Word of God says. Presumptions, inferences, assumptions, and conclusions drawn from assumptions do not interpret or determine what the Word of God says.

Personal presuppositions, prejudices, agendas, biases, and/or ideas do not interpret or determine what the Word of God says. The practices and acceptances of our day and age do not interpret or determine what the Word of God says. All of this is to engage in eisegesis. Eisegesis is at best unwise, and at worst extremely dangerous.

Exegesis and eisegesis are conflicting approaches to interpreting the Bible. Why? Exegesis is reading out from the Bible what the original authors were saying. Eisegesis is reading into the Bible one's own ideas or prejudices. Exegesis is about drawing out the true meaning of a Bible passage. Eisegesis is about putting into the text something never intended by the author. Exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective. The Bible gives us a clear example of exegesis:

Nehemiah 8:8 They read in the scroll, in the law of God, distinctly (plainly) & they gave the sense (meaning), so that the people could understand (grasp) what they read {literally 'IN the reading').

They read the text itself IN CONTEXT. As they read it, they distinctly & plainly declared & made the words known & clear concerning what they heard. This is WHAT the text actually SAID. They made the text clear & precise as to what the Law of God meant. They explained what was read & gave the insight into its meaning.

They expounded on the meaning of the words that were distinctly read. (see Ezra 4:18) After having done that, then they gave the sense (used only one time, here in the OT). That is, they interpreted & explained the meaning IN the text--SO THAT it resulted in & caused the people to understand the reading--by explaining the words & meaning in each passage. That is what exegesis is. The people were able to grasp the meaning of what was read because of the explanation that gave the actual sense of the passage & Law.

Habakkuk 2:2 And the LORD answered me & said, Write the vision & make it plain upon tablets...

Mark 4:34 He did not say anything to them without a parable. But privately He explained everything to His own disciples.

Luke 24:27,45 And beginning at Moses & all the prophets, he expounded (literally, 'exegeted) to them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself...Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. ('Then opened He their understanding, SO THAT they might understand the Scriptures.')

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in to them & 3 sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he 'expounded' ('exegeted') & testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses & out of the prophets, from morning till evening. (continued)
 
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Mathetes66

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And what was the RESULT of this exegetically explaining the text of the book of the Law?

Nehemiah 8:12 Then all the people began to eat & drink, to send out portions & to rejoice greatly, because they understood the words that had been made known to them.

Luke 24:32 They asked one another, “Were not our hearts BURNING WITHIN US as He spoke with us on the road & OPENED THE SCRIPTURES TO US?”

Jeremiah 23:28-31 Let the prophet who has a dream retell it, but let him who has My word speak it truthfully (faithfully; literally 'let him truly speak MY WORD'). For what is straw compared to grain?” declares the LORD. Does not my word burn like fire?” says the LORD. “Is it not like a mighty hammer that smashes a rock to pieces? Therefore,” says the LORD, “I am against these prophets who steal messages from each other & declare, 'The LORD declares!' (claim they are from--attributed--to Me)

Ellicott's Commentary: "The scornful phrase indicates the absence of a true inspiration. These false prophets plan their schemes & take their tongue as an instrument for carrying them into effect. The formula which they used, "He saith," was not the word for common speaking, but that which indicated that the speaker was delivering an oracle from God. (Jer 23:17.) Elsewhere the word is only used of God, but the prophet, in his stern irony, uses it of the false prophets."

Jer 9:12 Who is the man wise enough to understand this? To whom has the mouth of the LORD spoken, so that he may explain it?

Ezekiel 13:3 This is what the Lord GOD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit, yet have seen nothing.

Jeremiah 17:15 Your words were found & I ate them; & Your words became to me a joy & the delight of my heart; for I have been called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

Job 23:12 I have not departed from the command of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my daily bread.

Psalm 119:72 The law of Your mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold & silver.

Ps 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey & the honeycomb.

Deut 18:20 But if any prophet dares to speak a message in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or to speak in the name of other gods, that prophet must be put to death."

I think if that were true today, the majority of people would be very hesitant to say, 'This is what the Lord says or this is what the Lord meant or this dream is from the Lord.'

The Apostle James gives us a warning about this.

James 3:1-12 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. Look at the ships also, though they are so great & are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.

5So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body & sets on fire the course of our life & is set on fire by hell.

7For every species of beasts & birds, of reptiles & creatures of the sea, is tamed & has been tamed by the human race. But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil & full of deadly poison.

9With it we bless our Lord & Father & with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing & cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

11Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh & bitter water? Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

Who among you is wise & understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom...But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy & good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
 
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rakovsky

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Mathetes,

Your answer is the kind of thing I was looking for, so thank you.
I am not sure how closely the issues of exegesis and eisogesis fit interpreting prefigurements. In Genesis, if Joseph read the Baker's story as meaning that the Baker would lose bread, it would be exegesis because that is what is directly and explicitly in the baker's dream. If he predicted that the baker would get his job back and give the bread to the pharaoh, then this would be eisegesis I think if it was based on a desire to make a positive prediction. But in this case an interpreter can see that in the dream the baker did not want the birds to take the food even when he tried to keep the birds away, so an interpreter can use exegesis to see that the baker's fate would be undesirable.

In the case of the story sisera and Yael, the plain meaning is just that Yael kills an ancient Canaanite Commander. But according to biblical interpretation, there are several layers of meaning possible in stories, one meaning being an allegorical or mystical meaning. Jesus considered stories like Jonah's story and the serpent on a staff in the desert to be predictions of him in a mystical or prefiguring way. Maybe if you did exegesis of the stories, you would not find anything Christalogical in them. The story of Jonah never says in the story that it is about the Messiah, and Jesus never went to Nineveh or Rome for that matter. But on the other hand, we have no record of Nineveh in real life converting to belief in Yahweh, so maybe there is some way to do exegesis and conclude that the story is really a Messianic parable.

Jesus told us to search the scriptures because they talk of him, and so it is common to have writers talk about mystical meanings that are not explicit in the text as if they were predicting Christ. Some other examples are the story of Isaac being freed from sacrifice, and the story of Joseph life. I am not sure if you would call the discovery of those meanings eisegesis because what is happening is that the readers have a preset idea that the Messiah could be predicted in these passages and then they explore to see if that is the case. This sounds like you are definition of eisegesis. But for that matter there are plenty of passages wherein in rabbis see mystical meanings about the Messiah and other things that they may have gone from preset expectations.

In the case of Sisera, had already seen the concept of nails potentially showing up in the Bible as a potential Messianic prefigurement because it shows up in Yahweh's name as the letter Waw, YHWH seemingly referring pictographically to Arm/Hand Behold Nail/Spike Behold, alluding to the Crucifixion.

I had already known how in the Pentateuch there was a command to dig holes with nails/spikes and I had known about Psalm 22 about gouging(kaara) the arms and Psalm 40:6 about (kara) gouging/opening the ears to hear the Word.

You did a good job explaining the meaning of Psalm 40:6.

So I knew these meanings about Psalm 40:6 to gouge open the ears to hear, and the concept of gouging or digging with a spike, and that the Old Testament has cryptic mystical inner references to the Christian story when I read the story of Sisera. The choice of using a nail through the temples seemed like an unusual choice, so I considered that it might have an allegorical meaning prefiguring the opening/forming/gouging of the ears of the Gentile world or of evil gentiles. Or maybe it as an allegorical meaning of defeating Satan or defeating the Antichrist by making them hear God's word.

I see that your response seems to be that there are major differences between sisera and Christ or the gospel story. And that is true. But when it comes to the ancient Christological prefigurements, seeming differences are common. For instance, Christ was not a snake, since he was good, like you are saying that Christ would not be the evil sisera. Yet the snake on the staff was none the less treated as a prefigurement of the crucifixion. Plus in my example it is the Gentile world or evil gentiles or the Antichrist Etc who could be represented by sisera and could be made to hear God's word and be defeated. That is God's word defeats the Antichrist and God makes Antichrist able to hear it.

But I am not really sure of my Theory and I appreciate you discussing it with me, Mathetes.
 
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