The problem with "church" as I see it.....

Gideons300 · Nov 4, 2019

I can hear the groans now, lol. This may start out a bit dour and unpleasant to the taste, but I promise, if you will hang in there with me, and open up your heart to what God has for you, you will fully understand the meaning of "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy."

What are we missing? What are we missing collectively? What are we missing as individual believers? The desire to abide in Him. It is one thing to be saved, and to have your sins forgiven. But this is but an opening to finally abiding in the vine, one with the Lord.

Unfortunately, we have become satisfied with head knowledge. We know tons about Christ, We learn Greek and Aramaic to better translate His precious Word.
We find a group of believers that somewhat line up with our understanding of the Bible, and plant our immovable flags. "Come hell or high water, my church is the true church, and may God have mercy on the others." Right?

But in all this, do we truly abide in Him? Here is a little test, scripture only.

"He that sayeth he abideth in Him should walk, even as He walked." Ouch.

"Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Double ouch.

But you know the real ouchie? No one is crying out to walk that close to Jesus, holy and pure, where He is no longer with us, but IN us, dwelling closer than a brother.

Where are the saints crying out for real tangible victory over the sins that have them by the neck? Where the hearts that pant after His presence? Where is the army of God that is ready to stand in faith as to who they are in Christ... more than conquerors?

Our prayer closets are, if most are honest, dry as a bone, a one-sided conversation with silence as our partner. None questions why, despite His assurance that when you cry out, He will, theough His indwelling Spirit, COMFORT Us!

We see nothing wrong with our heart being pretty much fixed on this world, and with at best a lukewarm desire to be possessed of Him. We are a people who have forgotten how to blush. We should stand ashamed that our hearts do not cry out in longing to dwell under the shadow of His wing, where He CAUSES US to walk in victory just as He promised to do.

Our sins have hardened our hearts, nano-layer by nano-layer, til faith for us is simply mouthing words we accept as true with our minds but which exert no power nor peace nor joy.

My original question was what the "church" was missing. My response? True close, empowering fellowship with Jesus. Perhaps you feel you are missing it to. If so, may I encourage you? That hunger, that longing is God in you working, drawing you. You are blessed.

Things are about to change and radically, in a wonderful way. The bride of Christ is about to be shown how to become prepared for the wedding. How to be freed from the shackles of sons and habits that we both love and hate. How to walk with Christ in a closeness most cannot even fathom right now.

God said He would do a work in our day that if our eye did not see it, we would ot believe it. Welcome to that day.

blessings,

Gids

maintenance man · Nov 4, 2019

I have the same issues.

Gideons300 · Nov 4, 2019

maintenance man said:
I have the same issues.

LOL, I figured someone was going to interpret my blank page as the ultimate put down before I could finish my writing.

So if you agreed with my blank page assessment, what do you think of my worded one?

blessings,

Gids

maintenance man · Nov 4, 2019

Gideons300 said:
My original question was what the "church" was missing. My response? True close, empowering fellowship with Jesus.

I couldn't agree more.

Aussie Pete · Nov 4, 2019

Gideons300 said:
I can hear the groans now, lol. This may start out a bit dour and unpleasant to the taste, but I promise, if you will hang in there with me, and open up your heart to what God has for you, you will fully understand the meaning of "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy."

What are we missing? What are we missing collectively? What are we missing as individual believers? The desire to abide in Him. It is one thing to be saved, and to have your sins forgiven. But this is but an opening to finally abiding in the vine, one with the Lord.

Unfortunately, we have become satisfied with head knowledge. We know tons about Christ, We learn Greek and Aramaic to better translate His precious Word.
We find a group of believers that somewhat line up with our understanding of the Bible, and plant our immovable flags. "Come hell or high water, my church is the true church, and may God have mercy on the others." Right?

But in all this, do we truly abide in Him? Here is a little test, scripture only.

"He that sayeth he abideth in Him should walk, even as He walked." Ouch.

"Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Double ouch.

But you know the real ouchie? No one is crying out to walk that close to Jesus, holy and pure, where He is no longer with us, but IN us, dwelling closer than a brother.

Where are the saints crying out for real tangible victory over the sins that have them by the neck? Where the hearts that pant after His presence? Where is the army of God that is ready to stand in faith as to who they are in Christ... more than conquerors?

Our prayer closets are, if most are honest, dry as a bone, a one-sided conversation with silence as our partner. None questions why, despite His assurance that when you cry out, He will, theough His indwelling Spirit, COMFORT Us!

We see nothing wrong with our heart being pretty much fixed on this world, and with at best a lukewarm desire to be possessed of Him. We are a people who have forgotten how to blush. We should stand ashamed that our hearts do not cry out in longing to dwell under the shadow of His wing, where He CAUSES US to walk in victory just as He promised to do.

Our sins have hardened our hearts, nano-layer by nano-layer, til faith for us is simply mouthing words we accept as true with our minds but which exert no power nor peace nor joy.

My original question was what the "church" was missing. My response? True close, empowering fellowship with Jesus. Perhaps you feel you are missing it to. If so, may I encourage you? That hunger, that longing is God in you working, drawing you. You are blessed.

Things are about to change and radically, in a wonderful way. The bride of Christ is about to be shown how to become prepared for the wedding. How to be freed from the shackles of sons and habits that we both love and hate. How to walk with Christ in a closeness most cannot even fathom right now.

God said He would do a work in our day that if our eye did not see it, we would ot believe it. Welcome to that day.

blessings,

Gids

Good on you. There is a "remnant" who remain true to real Christianity. They seek the Kingdom of God first and know what it means to walk in the spirit. I had a similar attitude to you. The Lord said to me, "I have reserved for myself 7,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal". That was some years ago.
There are too many "make-believers" who pad out the church meetings. We are supposed to be "living stones", not a mixture of clay and stone. Too few people know Jesus as anything more than a rulebook to follow (as long as it does not cramp their lifestyle) and a get out of hell free card. Jesus is the Life of the born again Christian. When that realisation kicks in, that person is transformed. We need every believer to come to that place.

dailyprayerwarrior · Nov 4, 2019

Great post because it makes you really think about what you believe and why. I want to genuinely know the Lord more and more every day. And if you have a church with a heartbeat like that, it's a good start.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 5, 2019

Gideons300 said:
I can hear the groans now, lol. This may start out a bit dour and unpleasant to the taste, but I promise, if you will hang in there with me, and open up your heart to what God has for you, you will fully understand the meaning of "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy."

What are we missing? What are we missing collectively? What are we missing as individual believers? The desire to abide in Him. It is one thing to be saved, and to have your sins forgiven. But this is but an opening to finally abiding in the vine, one with the Lord.

My immediate response is that if folks don't have a close, personal fellowship with Christ outside of church in all the other environments, including home, family, work, leisure, etc., then they are going to be no different at church. Church is just a gathering of Christian believers to fellowship with each other, and hear the Word of God. There is mo magic about church. One does not live according to the flesh six days a week, and suddenly turn into an angel when they walk through the church door, as if there is some indeterminate mist that suddenly sanctifies them. The Holy Spirit doesn't go away from a person six days a week and suddenly returns in the Sunday morning service. I heard good ministry about the Holy Spirit - that we all have the Holy Spirit at conversion, but being filled with the Spirit is being controlled by the Spirit, not through sensory manifestations or feelings, but the will and the hearts desires are influenced and led by the Spirit.

Unfortunately, we have become satisfied with head knowledge. We know tons about Christ, We learn Greek and Aramaic to better translate His precious Word.
We find a group of believers that somewhat line up with our understanding of the Bible, and plant our immovable flags. "Come hell or high water, my church is the true church, and may God have mercy on the others." Right?

I don't believe that there is "perfect church", because everyone who attends is imperfect. But a true Christian church is one that is built on the foundation of Christ as He is revealed in the gospels. One that puts Christ first above all others, including Mary, the Saints, or any other church leader who puts him in the seat of Christ and makes Christ secondary to him. Such a such preaches a false gospel and therefore is not truly Christian.

My second point is that to treat the written Scriptures as "the dead letter" is a grievous error. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore is God's direct communication to mankind. The more we know and study the Bible, the more aware we are of God's will for our lives. The problem with some is that they put the "voice" of the Holy Spirit over and above the written Scriptures, when the Holy Spirit speaks through the Scriptures. Paul defined the Mosaic Law, its ritual, observances and ceremonies as "the dead letter", not the written Scriptures. Even Paul's preaching had to be ratified by the Bereans who searched the Scriptures to see whether He was correct or not.

But in all this, do we truly abide in Him? Here is a little test, scripture only.

"He that sayeth he abideth in Him should walk, even as He walked." Ouch.

"Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Double ouch.

But you know the real ouchie? No one is crying out to walk that close to Jesus, holy and pure, where He is no longer with us, but IN us, dwelling closer than a brother.

If we are walking the way we should be walking, and walking in the Spirit on a cold Monday morning as we trudge off the work, then we can walk in the Spirit any other time. The real test of whether we are walking in the Spirit or the flesh is when your partner burns the toast, or someone reports you to the boss at work when you have done nothing wrong, or when someone fender-benders you on the way home on the motorway, or when you miss the bus by 30 seconds. These are the realities. Anyone can sing hallelujah and be full of praise in the Sunday service, but watch it when they run out of coffee at the morning tea afterward!

Where are the saints crying out for real tangible victory over the sins that have them by the neck? Where the hearts that pant after His presence? Where is the army of God that is ready to stand in faith as to who they are in Christ... more than conquerors?

I heard a preacher once say that it is easy to have faith in unfavourable circumstances, and in favourable circumstances, but it is the most difficult to have faith when there are no circumstances at all.

Our prayer closets are, if most are honest, dry as a bone, a one-sided conversation with silence as our partner. None questions why, despite His assurance that when you cry out, He will, through His indwelling Spirit, COMFORT Us!

If we don't have a prayer life outside of church in all the other areas of our lives, then prayer at church doesn't get past the ceiling. He has promised that if He hears our voice much in prayer, we will hear His voice when He speaks to us through His Word.

We see nothing wrong with our heart being pretty much fixed on this world, and with at best a lukewarm desire to be possessed of Him. We are a people who have forgotten how to blush. We should stand ashamed that our hearts do not cry out in longing to dwell under the shadow of His wing, where He CAUSES US to walk in victory just as He promised to do.

Our sins have hardened our hearts, nano-layer by nano-layer, til faith for us is simply mouthing words we accept as true with our minds but which exert no power nor peace nor joy.

My original question was what the "church" was missing. My response? True close, empowering fellowship with Jesus. Perhaps you feel you are missing it to. If so, may I encourage you? That hunger, that longing is God in you working, drawing you. You are blessed.

Things are about to change and radically, in a wonderful way. The bride of Christ is about to be shown how to become prepared for the wedding. How to be freed from the shackles of sons and habits that we both love and hate. How to walk with Christ in a closeness most cannot even fathom right now.

God said He would do a work in our day that if our eye did not see it, we would ot believe it. Welcome to that day.

blessings,

Gids

The challenge is that we need to be the same at home, work, on the bus/train, driving down the motorway, engaged in our community, etc., as we are at church. When a church member gets road rage at another driver on the road, it would be very embarrassing if that other driver turns up at church on Sunday morning and spots that member there. Would we think that person could be right if he viewed that member as a hypocrite?

hislegacy · Nov 5, 2019

What churches have you been to in the last five years that helps you form this opinion?

Or, how was your opinion formed, with what first hand experience.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 5, 2019

hislegacy said:
What churches have you been to in the last five years that helps you form this opinion?

Or, how was your opinion formed, with what first hand experience.

When we talk of "church", it is not the buildings, denomination, or the organisation of it. Those are just the scaffolding. The real church is made up of the people who belong to it.

There is a mixture of people who belong to a church, because people belong to a church for all sorts of different reasons, and not all of those reasons include a personal love for Christ and His Word.

Maybe the best people to evaluate whether a person is sincere in his or her love for Christ, are the closest family members, because they are the ones to see what the person is really like when there are no Christians around to observe his or her behaviour.

Some notable examples of straight hypocrisy are the embezzlement of funds revealed in the case of a prominent TV ministry, pedophilia among priests, child abuse in church-run childrens' homes. All these have come out in the news from time to time.

As for myself, if I got up in my church and started preaching that people needed to be perfectly holy in order to be right with God, I would be just a hypocrite, because I am not holy in all that I do and say.

I think that a good church is one where the pastor and elders love Christ, desire to exalt Him, and preach the Bible; and have the attitude that "I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is my all in all". That is true humility. Arrogance, in my view, is someone who gets up and says, "I have the gifts of prophecy, word of knowledge and word of wisdom, therefore you must listen to me because I have a special ear to God to teach you what God expects of you". Or another, who shakes, trembles, falls down, jerks, speaks loudly in tongues, and gives dramatic KJV Old Testament style prophecies, so that all know that he is very spiritual, and yet when he is a work, he is lazy, abusive, disrespectful of authority, because "I am working for the Lord, so I do what He says and not what you tell me."

hislegacy · Nov 5, 2019

Oscarr said:
When we talk of "church", it is not the buildings, denomination, or the organisation of it. Those are just the scaffolding. The real church is made up of the people who belong to it.

There is a mixture of people who belong to a church, because people belong to a church for all sorts of different reasons, and not all of those reasons include a personal love for Christ and His Word.

Maybe the best people to evaluate whether a person is sincere in his or her love for Christ, are the closest family members, because they are the ones to see what the person is really like when there are no Christians around to observe his or her behaviour.

Some notable examples of straight hypocrisy are the embezzlement of funds revealed in the case of a prominent TV ministry, pedophilia among priests, child abuse in church-run childrens' homes. All these have come out in the news from time to time.

As for myself, if I got up in my church and started preaching that people needed to be perfectly holy in order to be right with God, I would be just a hypocrite, because I am not holy in all that I do and say.

I think that a good church is one where the pastor and elders love Christ, desire to exalt Him, and preach the Bible; and have the attitude that "I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is my all in all". That is true humility. Arrogance, in my view, is someone who gets up and says, "I have the gifts of prophecy, word of knowledge and word of wisdom, therefore you must listen to me because I have a special ear to God to teach you what God expects of you". Or another, who shakes, trembles, falls down, jerks, speaks loudly in tongues, and gives dramatic KJV Old Testament style prophecies, so that all know that he is very spiritual, and yet when he is a work, he is lazy, abusive, disrespectful of authority, because "I am working for the Lord, so I do what He says and not what you tell me."

Basing it on tv newscasts and shows - hmmmm….

that isn't the church either

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 5, 2019

hislegacy said:
Basing it on tv newscasts and shows - hmmmm….

that isn't the church either

A true church is one that exalts Jesus, loves the preaching of Scripture, and seeks to win sinners to Christ by preaching the true gospel.

It is interesting that many large Charismatic churches that preach guaranteed healing, prosperity, etc., don't seem to include the gospel which teaches that man is a depraved sinner, deserving of hell, and needs to receive Christ and base his faith on the finished work of the cross. Sanctification is not taught and personal holiness is something to be avoided. It seems that most of the ministry is around, "Jesus will make you rich, heal your body, give you pleasurable manifestations, be your friend, you can be your own "god", etc. These are the churches that draw large crowds - ignoring that the way to eternity life is narrow, and few there be who find it.

Gideons300 · Nov 5, 2019

Oscarr said:
My immediate response is that if folks don't have a close, personal fellowship with Christ outside of church in all the other environments, including home, family, work, leisure, etc., then they are going to be no different at church. Church is just a gathering of Christian believers to fellowship with each other, and hear the Word of God. There is mo magic about church. One does not live according to the flesh six days a week, and suddenly turn into an angel when they walk through the church door, as if there is some indeterminate mist that suddenly sanctifies them. The Holy Spirit doesn't go away from a person six days a week and suddenly returns in the Sunday morning service. I heard good ministry about the Holy Spirit - that we all have the Holy Spirit at conversion, but being filled with the Spirit is being controlled by the Spirit, not through sensory manifestations or feelings, but the will and the hearts desires are influenced and led by the Spirit.

I don't believe that there is "perfect church", because everyone who attends is imperfect. But a true Christian church is one that is built on the foundation of Christ as He is revealed in the gospels. One that puts Christ first above all others, including Mary, the Saints, or any other church leader who puts him in the seat of Christ and makes Christ secondary to him. Such a such preaches a false gospel and therefore is not truly Christian.

My second point is that to treat the written Scriptures as "the dead letter" is a grievous error. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore is God's direct communication to mankind. The more we know and study the Bible, the more aware we are of God's will for our lives. The problem with some is that they put the "voice" of the Holy Spirit over and above the written Scriptures, when the Holy Spirit speaks through the Scriptures. Paul defined the Mosaic Law, its ritual, observances and ceremonies as "the dead letter", not the written Scriptures. Even Paul's preaching had to be ratified by the Bereans who searched the Scriptures to see whether He was correct or not.

If we are walking the way we should be walking, and walking in the Spirit on a cold Monday morning as we trudge off the work, then we can walk in the Spirit any other time. The real test of whether we are walking in the Spirit or the flesh is when your partner burns the toast, or someone reports you to the boss at work when you have done nothing wrong, or when someone fender-benders you on the way home on the motorway, or when you miss the bus by 30 seconds. These are the realities. Anyone can sing hallelujah and be full of praise in the Sunday service, but watch it when they run out of coffee at the morning tea afterward!

I heard a preacher once say that it is easy to have faith in unfavourable circumstances, and in favourable circumstances, but it is the most difficult to have faith when there are no circumstances at all.

If we don't have a prayer life outside of church in all the other areas of our lives, then prayer at church doesn't get past the ceiling. He has promised that if He hears our voice much in prayer, we will hear His voice when He speaks to us through His Word.

The challenge is that we need to be the same at home, work, on the bus/train, driving down the motorway, engaged in our community, etc., as we are at church. When a church member gets road rage at another driver on the road, it would be very embarrassing if that other driver turns up at church on Sunday morning and spots that member there. Would we think that person could be right if he viewed that member as a hypocrite?

Excellent points, Oscar. Thank you for sharing. But if I may, does that not beg the question as to how to make the closeness we feel with the Lord on Sundays be there for us on Wednesdays as well?

It is easy to just assume these you refer to are just double-minded saints and so we.....

a) assume they are not saints at all
or
b) we tell them that as Christians, they needto just 'do better' and stop being hypocrites.

But I believe we are missing a large group of people who genuinely do love the Lord, but simply do not know how to get self out of the picture, how to break free of lukewarmness, how to rule over the sins that at present rule over them.

Unfortunately, the 'gospel' they commonly hear on Sundays assures them no one is perfect, all of our sins are forgiven anyway, so stop sweating it. It undercuts at the very truth that they truly are new creatures, and their birthright is to be kept by the power of God through faith, walking in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil.

These need neither judgment nor exhortation to stop playing games and 'get serious about God'. What do they need? Faith to believe that the old them really is passed away. Without it, abiding in the vine is impossible.

God is even now restoring what the cankerworm has stolen from us. But first we have to understand what God has promised us and step out to actually believe it.

Blessings to you, Oscar

Gids

Lost4words · Nov 5, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Excellent points, Oscar. Thank you for sharing. But if I may, does that not beg the question as to how to make the closeness we feel with the Lord on Sundays be there for us on Wednesdays as well?

It is easy to just assume these you refer to are just double-minded saints and so we.....

a) assume they are not saints at all
or
b) we tell them that as Christians, they needto just 'do better' and stop being hypocrites.

But I believe we are missing a large group of people who genuinely do love the Lord, but simply do not know how to get self out of the picture, how to break free of lukewarmness, how to rule over the sins that at present rule over them.

Unfortunately, the 'gospel' they commonly hear on Sundays assures them no one is perfect, all of our sins are forgiven anyway, so stop sweating it. It undercuts at the very truth that they truly are new creatures, and their birthright is to be kept by the power of God through faith, walking in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil.

These need neither judgment nor exhortation to stop playing games and 'get serious about God'. What do they need? Faith to believe that the old them really is passed away. Without it, abiding in the vine is impossible.

God is even now restoring what the cankerworm has stolen from us. But first we have to understand what God has promised us and step out to actually believe it.

Blessings to you, Oscar

Gids

How to rule over sin?

hislegacy · Nov 5, 2019

Oscarr said:
A true church is one that exalts Jesus, loves the preaching of Scripture, and seeks to win sinners to Christ by preaching the true gospel.

It is interesting that many large Charismatic churches that preach guaranteed healing, prosperity, etc., don't seem to include the gospel which teaches that man is a depraved sinner, deserving of hell, and needs to receive Christ and base his faith on the finished work of the cross. Sanctification is not taught and personal holiness is something to be avoided. It seems that most of the ministry is around, "Jesus will make you rich, heal your body, give you pleasurable manifestations, be your friend, you can be your own "god", etc. These are the churches that draw large crowds - ignoring that the way to eternity life is narrow, and few there be who find it.

can you share which ones you have been to.

hislegacy · Nov 5, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Unfortunately, the 'gospel' they commonly hear on Sundays assures them no one is perfect, all of our sins are forgiven anyway, so stop sweating it. It undercuts at the very truth that they truly are new creatures, and their birthright is to be kept by the power of God through faith, walking in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil.

how do you know this as fact?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 5, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Excellent points, Oscar. Thank you for sharing. But if I may, does that not beg the question as to how to make the closeness we feel with the Lord on Sundays be there for us on Wednesdays as well?

It is easy to just assume these you refer to are just double-minded saints and so we.....

a) assume they are not saints at all
or
b) we tell them that as Christians, they needto just 'do better' and stop being hypocrites.

But I believe we are missing a large group of people who genuinely do love the Lord, but simply do not know how to get self out of the picture, how to break free of lukewarmness, how to rule over the sins that at present rule over them.

Unfortunately, the 'gospel' they commonly hear on Sundays assures them no one is perfect, all of our sins are forgiven anyway, so stop sweating it. It undercuts at the very truth that they truly are new creatures, and their birthright is to be kept by the power of God through faith, walking in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil.

These need neither judgment nor exhortation to stop playing games and 'get serious about God'. What do they need? Faith to believe that the old them really is passed away. Without it, abiding in the vine is impossible.

God is even now restoring what the cankerworm has stolen from us. But first we have to understand what God has promised us and step out to actually believe it.

Blessings to you, Oscar

Gids

There is a preciousness about fellowshipping in a group of fellow-believers. It is not that we are any closer to the Lord, but we have pleasant feelings being among them. Actually, in times when I have fellowshipped with the Lord in the middle of a park, or on a lonely beach, I have felt much closer to the Lord than anywhere else, including church services.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 5, 2019

Lost4words said:
How to rule over sin?

We will always have sin with us as long as we are in these mortal bodies, but we will not allow sin to dominate us. Temptation may trip us up now and again, but we don't go back where sin dominates our lifestyle.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 5, 2019

hislegacy said:
can you share which ones you have been to.

I am a bit reluctant to do that because I suspect that your question might be a loaded one.

hislegacy · Nov 5, 2019

Oscarr said:
I am a bit reluctant to do that because I suspect that your question might be a loaded one.

Not loaded at all. I'm wondering if anyone making such observations has actually experienced what they are speaking about first hand, or are sharing judgments based on something other.

I travel in the US and internationally ministering and training pastors and leaders. While there are certainly some churches that are like what is being portrayed in this thread, there are perhaps three times as many that are nothing like what is being described.

I'm wondering if I am speaking with people with actual experience, or armchair quarterbacks. Mr reply is different or each.

Gideons300 · Nov 5, 2019

Lost4words said:
How to rule over sin?

LOL, you know me well enough to know what my response is going to be. Absolutely!

We have judged God's ability to do what He promised He would do but what we have experienced and witnessed in our walks with God. Big mistake, fro in doing so, we have robbed ourselves of lives of victory and transformation.

Sins dominate us. Emptiness enshrouds us. Lukewarmness possesses us. Worldliness is now our norm. Evil fruits of unrighteousness. But how do we fight them? Ahhhh, we don't.

Fighting against sin is at best a life of miserable unsureness, and at worst a recipe for a hardened heart. No, the ax must be laid to the root of the tree bearing those fruits in our lives.

And what is that root? Unbelief.

We simply refuse to pick up what God offers us. New Natures. They do not just 'happen'. They must be put on.

blessings,

Gids

The problem with "church" as I see it.....

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