Light of the East

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you're being very literal when it says God repented. so if that is to be literal, did God literally come down?

I would appreciate a proper understanding of those verses if that is not what they mean.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I would appreciate a proper understanding of those verses if that is not what they mean.

well, God is definitionaly changeless and all knowing, so He doesn't repent.

the pre-Incarnate God is omnipresent so He doesn't come down from one place to another.
 
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Light of the East

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well, God is definitionaly changeless and all knowing, so He doesn't repent.

the pre-Incarnate God is omnipresent so He doesn't come down from one place to another.

Changeless as in Divine Simplicity?
 
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AMM

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well, God is definitionaly changeless and all knowing, so He doesn't repent.

the pre-Incarnate God is omnipresent so He doesn't come down from one place to another.
How should we interpret those passages, then?
 
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ArmyMatt

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How should we interpret those passages, then?

as using human language, limited as it is, to describe God at work. God doesn't repent in that He changes His mind, but rather He uses that to reveal what His plan was from the beginning which He didn't initially tell man.
 
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JohnTh

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They're always very beneficial to read even though I don't always understand everything.

Thanks a lot for your kind words! If something is hard to understand, just drop a line and I will try, with your prayers, to clear the things a little...
 
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JohnTh

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I would appreciate a proper understanding of those verses if that is not what they mean.

How should we interpret those passages, then?

What @ArmyMatt said.
Besides this, we must understand the difference between God's nature and God's energies.

In order to understand this distinction we must accept that we CANNOT really understand it.

However:

Think at a star as a source of light and the rays which come from there. Well, the star is different from the rays but in the God's case they are both God. It is a simple distinction in the simplicity of God imposed by His expression towards us.

If God is the same unchangeable perfect God, His expression towards us changes pedagogically according with what is best for us, depending on situation.

God is alive, so He reacts like a Father towards His children: Even if the Father loves perfectly His children, sometimes approves their deeds, sometimes disproves them - and all these in a very concrete manner.
 
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Light of the East

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as using human language, limited as it is, to describe God at work. God doesn't repent in that He changes His mind, but rather He uses that to reveal what His plan was from the beginning which He didn't initially tell man.

From what you have said here, it sounds like the plan of God goes forward like a play that is already written. In light of the verses I posted, from what you said, God put the whole play in motion and never intended anything other than destroying mankind in the flood in the first place. That was always the plan beause God is omniscient.

It also makes it sound to me like man has absolutely zero free will. Everything is planned out from the moment God acted in creation...including the fall of man.
 
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ArmyMatt

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From what you have said here, it sounds like the plan of God goes forward like a play that is already written. In light of the verses I posted, from what you said, God put the whole play in motion and never intended anything other than destroying mankind in the flood in the first place. That was always the plan beause God is omniscient.

It also makes it sound to me like man has absolutely zero free will. Everything is planned out from the moment God acted in creation...including the fall of man.

no, that's because God is outside of time, which means He can see and act upon our free choices, without interfering with our will.

the Flood was in the plan from the beginning because God saw that we would sin and where our sin would lead. that isn't the same as saying God planned our sin.
 
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no, that's because God is outside of time, which means He can see and act upon our free choices, without interfering with our will.

the Flood was in the plan from the beginning because God saw that we would sin and where our sin would lead. that isn't the same as saying God planned our sin.

Then why would it "repent" Him, seeing that He foreknew this from the beginning? Makes no sense at all.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Then why would it "repent" Him, seeing that He foreknew this from the beginning? Makes no sense at all.

because they didn't have as clear an understanding of God at the time. in other words, God didn't really repent, but that was the word used because at the time Genesis was written, the people had a limited understanding.
 
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JohnTh

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Then why would it "repent" Him, seeing that He foreknew this from the beginning? Makes no sense at all.

Makes no sense because you understand 'repent' in human manner (like any of us, in fact). However the reality of God is totally different that ours. See my continuation below.

that was the word used because at the time Genesis was written

Indeed. Our language is waaay too limited - we reach even to contradictions in the same topic but they are both true - when it comes to describe the God behavior: here is a (very) classical example.
 
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Light of the East

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Makes no sense because you understand 'repent' in human manner (like any of us, in fact). However the reality of God is totally different that ours. See my continuation below.

Indeed. Our language is waaay too limited - we reach even to contradictions in the same topic but they are both true - when it comes to describe the God behavior: here is a (very) classical example.

There is no way to sugar coat my feelings about this - to me (and this is just my opinion on the matter) this is stunningly dishonest. This is like the debate that I got into with some RC friends on another forum where I said that one of the reasons that Universal Salvation is probably true is because God is love and therefore can only act in line with what He is. They then proceeded to bombard me with the exact same kind of thinking shown here - that words don't really mean what they say because God is so different from us. So love, rather than meaning the doing of that which is best for the object of that love, can actually mean any number of different kinds of behaviors, based on the fact that God is really different from us, higher than us, and unknowable.

Well, if God established language, and words have meaning, then it is the intention that when I say "dog" for instance, I don't mean a creature with fins and scales that swims in water. When I say "love," it doesn't mean coming home to my wife and beating her with my fists.

Human words have the meaning that God gave them, not us. He created language, therefore, when the word "repent" is used, it has a certain and distinct meaning. I find this kind of waffling in order to keep one's theological turf safe to be unbelieveable. I am coming to a point where I wonder if there is any honesty anywhere, rather than people who have staked out a theological position and then will do anything they can to defend that position.

For instance, the example given in the link above does not prove your point. In the site linked, the ultimate message is not that God has different behaviors. The post at the end shows that it is one behavior - love - expressed in different forms in order to achieve the same result, the drawing of the sinner to God. The will is the same - the expressions are different.

Repent does not have a different meaning than that which God has given it in human language.
 
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AMM

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LOTE, while I can't agree 100% with what you're saying/feeling, let me just say that I can commiserate to an extent. I've had similar concerns/thoughts before and I'm not sure my mind has been fully set at ease. Maybe God will enlighten us at some point in the future, or maybe this is one issue where we just have to accept that God's ways are higher than ours (even though that seems like a cop-out). I'm not sure. But I do understand where you're coming from
 
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ArmyMatt

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There is no way to sugar coat my feelings about this - to me (and this is just my opinion on the matter) this is stunningly dishonest. This is like the debate that I got into with some RC friends on another forum where I said that one of the reasons that Universal Salvation is probably true is because God is love and therefore can only act in line with what He is. They then proceeded to bombard me with the exact same kind of thinking shown here - that words don't really mean what they say because God is so different from us. So love, rather than meaning the doing of that which is best for the object of that love, can actually mean any number of different kinds of behaviors, based on the fact that God is really different from us, higher than us, and unknowable.

Well, if God established language, and words have meaning, then it is the intention that when I say "dog" for instance, I don't mean a creature with fins and scales that swims in water. When I say "love," it doesn't mean coming home to my wife and beating her with my fists.

Human words have the meaning that God gave them, not us. He created language, therefore, when the word "repent" is used, it has a certain and distinct meaning. I find this kind of waffling in order to keep one's theological turf safe to be unbelieveable. I am coming to a point where I wonder if there is any honesty anywhere, rather than people who have staked out a theological position and then will do anything they can to defend that position.

For instance, the example given in the link above does not prove your point. In the site linked, the ultimate message is not that God has different behaviors. The post at the end shows that it is one behavior - love - expressed in different forms in order to achieve the same result, the drawing of the sinner to God. The will is the same - the expressions are different.

Repent does not have a different meaning than that which God has given it in human language.

for one, there is a difference between the limitedness of language prior to the Incarnation, and how the Church reads that language in the light of the Incarnate Word.

universalism is not, and will never be true (as you are defining it) because love must be experienced freely from and to the beloved. that means you have freedom to reject that love.

yes, words have meaning God gives them, but also words have limitations that God has told man. read St Dionysius.

seriously, stop trying to find a back door or loophole for universalism. it's not true.
 
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Not David

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There is no way to sugar coat my feelings about this - to me (and this is just my opinion on the matter) this is stunningly dishonest. This is like the debate that I got into with some RC friends on another forum where I said that one of the reasons that Universal Salvation is probably true is because God is love and therefore can only act in line with what He is. They then proceeded to bombard me with the exact same kind of thinking shown here - that words don't really mean what they say because God is so different from us. So love, rather than meaning the doing of that which is best for the object of that love, can actually mean any number of different kinds of behaviors, based on the fact that God is really different from us, higher than us, and unknowable.

Well, if God established language, and words have meaning, then it is the intention that when I say "dog" for instance, I don't mean a creature with fins and scales that swims in water. When I say "love," it doesn't mean coming home to my wife and beating her with my fists.

Human words have the meaning that God gave them, not us. He created language, therefore, when the word "repent" is used, it has a certain and distinct meaning. I find this kind of waffling in order to keep one's theological turf safe to be unbelieveable. I am coming to a point where I wonder if there is any honesty anywhere, rather than people who have staked out a theological position and then will do anything they can to defend that position.

For instance, the example given in the link above does not prove your point. In the site linked, the ultimate message is not that God has different behaviors. The post at the end shows that it is one behavior - love - expressed in different forms in order to achieve the same result, the drawing of the sinner to God. The will is the same - the expressions are different.

Repent does not have a different meaning than that which God has given it in human language.
You are using a Evangelical literalist idea of interpreting Scriptures. Maybe Christ is lower than the Father since He said "neither the Son knows the time of the coming" and "The Father is greater than I".
 
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Not David

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for one, there is a difference between the limitedness of language prior to the Incarnation, and how the Church reads that language in the light of the Incarnate Word.

universalism is not, and will never be true (as you are defining it) because love must be experienced freely from and to the beloved. that means you have freedom to reject that love.

yes, words have meaning God gives them, but also words have limitations that God has told man. read St Dionysius.

seriously, stop trying to find a back door or loophole for universalism. it's not true.
I used to be doubtful about hell before Orthodoxy but know I understand that it is not God's actions who hurt them but they themselves wanted to reject God.
 
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ArmyMatt

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This is what I am talking about

The Univocality of God’s Love

again, this is a weak defense of universalism. of course God's love is vastly beyond our love. St Justin Martyr hints at this.

as soon as you have a conception of what God's love is, you are wrong. there is no way to contrast or compare the Uncreated with the created. seriously, read the Cappadocians especially when they write against the Eunomians.
 
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