Predestination v free will compromise?

His student · Nov 5, 2019

Dave L said:
It's the same in no certain order. God helps those who help themselves.

Brother Dave, you do indeed have the salvation process exactly backward and there is no example you originally provided which allows for the proper order.

Obviously we help ourselves in salvation. But we can only do so because He has first helped us.

I thought at first that you must have inadvertently left God being the initiator or all we do in the furtherance of our salvation out of your list of ways to be saved.

But it now seems now that it was perhaps purposeful.

If we help ourselves, either in the initial sequence related to our new birth or in the sanctification process - it is because He first began a good work in us.

Don't you agree?

In initial salvation - we only come to the Lord because God draws us. Obviously we don't come to Jesus and then, based on that, the Father draws us.

Likewise when we declare "Jesus is Lord" we only are able to do so by an act of the Holy Spirit within us. We don't declare Jesus is Lord and then, based on that declaration, God begins to work in us and we can then declare "Jesus is Lord".

We do good works in sanctification but they are the good works which God prepared before hand that we should walk in them. We "work out our salvation with fear and trembling because we understand that it is He Who is at work in us to do His good pleasure.

Hopefully you will agree that He is the author of our faith even if you feel that the scriptures teach that we are the finishers of that faith.

Dave L · Nov 5, 2019

His student said:
Brother Dave, you do indeed have the salvation process exactly backward and there is no example you originally provided which allows for the proper order.

Obviously we help ourselves in salvation. But we can only do so because He has first helped us.

I thought at first that you must have inadvertently left God being the initiator or all we do in the furtherance of our salvation out of your list of ways to be saved.

But it now seems now that it was perhaps purposeful.

If we help ourselves, either in the initial sequence related to our new birth or in the sanctification process - it is because He first began a good work in us.

Don't you agree?

In initial salvation - we only come to the Lord because God draws us. Obviously we don't come to Jesus and then, based on that, the Father draws us.

Likewise when we declare "Jesus is Lord" we only are able to do so by an act of the Holy Spirit within us. We don't declare Jesus is Lord and then, based on that declaration, God begins to work in us and we can then declare "Jesus is Lord".

We do good works in sanctification but they are the good works which God prepared before hand that we should walk in them. We "work out our salvation with fear and trembling because we understand that it is He Who is at work in us to do His good pleasure.

Hopefully you will agree that He is the author of our faith even if you feel that the scriptures teach that we are the finishers of that faith.

You produce salvation by works if your will ever becomes involved leading up to salvation. This results in a false gospel and possibly a false Christ.

His student · Nov 5, 2019

Dave L said:
You produce salvation by works if your will ever becomes involved leading up to salvation. This results in a false gospel and possibly a false Christ.

Not sure what that means. :scratch:

Dave L · Nov 5, 2019

His student said:
Not sure what that means.

God saves us apart from free will. It never enters into salvation. Only after he saves us.

bling · Nov 5, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
God cannot know everything and free will truly exist, and that is your conundrum...

It is resolved in and with the true Trinity...

God Bless!

God at the beginning of time can know everything that has and will happen as pure unchangeable history for the God at the end of time, from information within Himself throughout time (God being outside of time). Just because a being knows historically what has happened does not mean the things that did happen were not free will actions.

bling · Nov 5, 2019

sdowney717 said:
God's electing great love for some and not for the others, for His own particular purpose and will.
God does what He does. If God does not give to you a new heart that can and will believe in Christ, then the old carnal mind you are naturally born with remains at enmity with God and will never follow or believe in Christ. The carnal mind follows after desiring the lusts of the flesh and follows after Satan the prince of the powers of the air.

Example here
Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

I have no problem with the unbelieving sinner not being able to do stuff which is pleasing to God, since selfish actions do not please God, but that does not mean the unbelieving sin can not do something very selfish on his/her part like accepting totally undeserved pure charity from God for selfish reasons like the prodigal son did.

bling · Nov 5, 2019

Hammster said:
What you just promoted is not only unbiblical, it’s promoting universalism.

No it does not and we have all the world, whosoever, whoever, all and everyone to point to in showing God's Love (mercy) for everyone.
I have explained how even with a totally merciful God, so can be lost since they do not humbly accept God's mercy as pure charity.

bling · Nov 5, 2019

the last child said:
I think I kinda see what you’re trying to say...maybe? That God extended His “mercy” and “love” (in the form of salvation thru Christ) to everyone, so that it is available to all, but only those who accept it will receive it. And are you then saying that acceptance of this gift should not be considered a “work” ...and that the problem isn’t that God isn’t loving enough it’s that man doesn’t choose to accept this gift from Him....is this correct? Bc otherwise your argument could be misread....

You are right.
By the Biblical definition of "work" an honest beggar taking pure charity is not working.

sdowney717 · Nov 5, 2019

bling said:
No it does not and we have all the world, whosoever, whoever, all and everyone to point to in showing God's Love (mercy) for everyone.
I have explained how even with a totally merciful God, so can be lost since they do not humbly accept God's mercy as pure charity.

God and Christ are not trying to save anybody.
They always succeed in what they do, God's sends His Word and it accomplishes the purposes for which it is sent.
God promises to save those who are His and send the rest to judgement. Those who are His He knew them from the before the foundation of the earth, before they did anything either good or bad. Rather than me defend 'my God' , you should examine the belief in your 'god' and see if it is just a fake caricature of the One True God found in the scriptures.

sdowney717 · Nov 5, 2019

For example, my God chose me from the beginning of time, chose me for salvation, before I had been born, before I had done anything good or bad, so that His calling on me according to election might stand. That is what the scripture teaches 'us' who are believers, that He loved me first, which is why I love God. And because of His great love for me, He saved me. He brought about in me the situations in my life where I would come to Him in faith, believing God had raised Him from the dead and acknowledge Christ as Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,

17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

Revealing Times · Nov 5, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

Calvin and others like him are in error.

All one has to do is study the Nature/Essence of God and they would know this is a lie from Satan, the god of confusion. God does not create men evil, He created men in His likeness, we became evil through Adam and thus must reconcile unto God via Christ Jesus.

Paul's Predestination point is taken out of CONTEXT. God predestined us to life ever after, but mankind chose evil like Lucifer did, God knowing all things thus predestined us to life evermore via the blood of Jesus Christ, so we are all predestined by God to live for an eternity, but we have to accept this FREE GIFT of Salvation from God.

Paul is basically saying we are all predestined to life in Christ Jesus, all men, but those same men have to choose the FREE GIFT of life Jesus offered unto them.

Predestination is not of God as per how they think Paul is thinking.

Paul was thinking like this, God has predestined all men to life not death, men must accept that FREE GIFT that God gave us because of Adams sin.

His student · Nov 5, 2019

Dave L said:
God saves us apart from free will. It never enters into salvation. Only after he saves us.

While I do believe that it is true that no one has completely free will in his natural state and that our wills must be changed inwardly by a work of the the Holy Spirit before developing faith - once that is done we must respond with that changed will and come to the Son that we might have life.

Yes - that inward call is irresistible. But that inward call does not in and of itself save anyone. No one is saved by that inward grace alone.

Even the most die hard Calvinist knows that we must come to the Son in order to have life. Non one is saved by election alone and no one is saved by regeneration alone. I.e. no one is justified without exercising faith.

That is an anti Calvinist talking point.

As many as received Him - to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God.

God helps us help ourselves to the salvation that is available to us. But He does not simply infuse it into us apart from our exercising faith.

Neogaia777 · Nov 5, 2019

His student said:
Brother -

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders why you quote your previous post each time and then replay to yourself.

You should quote the other guy and then reply to his thought.

Otherwise no one knows who and what you are addressing and you end up with a string of posts where you are talking to yourself.

Sorry, I'm oftentimes just trying to finish a line of thought or certain line of thought, sorry...

And as for talking to myself, I'm quite good at that much of the time, Lol...

God Bless!

Dave L · Nov 6, 2019

His student said:
While I do believe that it is true that no one has completely free will in his natural state and that our wills must be changed inwardly by a work of the the Holy Spirit before developing faith - once that is done we must respond with that changed will and come to the Son that we might have life.

Yes - that inward call is irresistible. But that inward call does not in and of itself save anyone. No one is saved by that inward grace alone.

Even the most die hard Calvinist knows that we must come to the Son in order to have life. Non one is saved by election alone and no one is saved by regeneration alone. I.e. no one is justified without exercising faith.

That is an anti Calvinist talking point.

As many as received Him - to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God.

God helps us help ourselves to the salvation that is available to us. But He does not simply infuse it into us apart from our exercising faith.

Why free will never applies to salvation? The will is blind to spiritual truth and can not measure up to the level of law keeping that saves. Only Jesus had this capacity. So apart from the fallen will, God imparts the New Birth which repairs the will. So any activity of the will involving salvation happens after God saves us and we seek to live a holy life.

His student · Nov 6, 2019

Dave L said:
Why free will never applies to salvation? The will is blind to spiritual truth and can not measure up to the level of law keeping that saves. Only Jesus had this capacity. So apart from the fallen will, God imparts the New Birth which repairs the will. So any activity of the will involving salvation happens after God saves us and we seek to live a holy life.

OK - maybe it's a matter of semantics - but I disagree.

But one is not simply zapped into the Kingdom of God. The gospel must preached and that gospel must be heard and responded to by faith. Even the likes of Cornelius needed to exercise saving faith in order to be justified before God.

The scripture is clear that it is "our faith" demonstrated by an action of our new will that saves us.

God is the author of our faith. That faith is a gift from God, given by grace.

But it is our faith that is exercised in justification - by us.

God first "helps" us by opening our hearts and then we help ourselves to the free gift offered to us by the preaching of the gospel.

I understand that your intention is to lay the credit where credit is due.

But the kind of formulation that you posit for salvation is exactly the kind that anti Calvinists claim that Calvinists believe and teach.

I don't know how many times I've heard people here in the forum make the charge that I believe election saves and therefore I have no "free will" and am a robot when it comes to being saved.

Your formulation, while well intended, makes true that charge which I vehemently deny.

One is not saved by election or predestination apart from the exercise of "our" faith - no matter that that faith is authored by God in grace.

Dave L · Nov 6, 2019

His student said:
OK - maybe it's a matter of semantics - but I disagree.

But one is not simply zapped into the Kingdom of God. The gospel must preached and that gospel must be heard and responded to by faith. Even the likes of Cornelius needed to exercise saving faith in order to be justified before God.

The scripture is clear that it is "our faith" demonstrated by an action of our new will that saves us.

God is the author of our faith. That faith is a gift from God, given by grace.

But it is our faith that is exercised in justification - by us.

God first "helps" us by opening our hearts and then we help ourselves to the free gift offered to us by the preaching of the gospel.

I understand that your intention is to lay the credit where credit is due.

But the kind of formulation that you posit for salvation is exactly the kind that anti Calvinists claim that Calvinists believe and teach.

I don't know how many times I've heard people here in the forum make the charge that I believe election saves and therefore I have no "free will" and am a robot when it comes to being saved.

Your formulation, while well intended, makes true that charge which I vehemently deny.

One is not saved by election or predestination apart from the exercise of "our" faith - no matter that that faith is authored by God in grace.

Babies and such are born again (saved) apart from the gospel. The gospel tells the born again (saved) how to live and satisfy their hunger and thirst for righteousness caused by the new birth.

His student · Nov 6, 2019

Dave L said:
Babies and such are born again (saved) apart from the gospel. ......

That's the commonly held assumption. But OK.

Dave L said:
......The gospel tells the born again (saved) how to live and satisfy their hunger and thirst for righteousness caused by the new birth.

No - this is your basic mistake.

The gospel tells an unsaved person how to be justified before God and thus saved and he or she is then born again by believing that gospel.

Obviously born again people are not born again by the "living and abiding Word of God" - those in need of the new birth are.

"Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Peter 1:22-23

You may call the opening of the eyes of someone like Lydia, for instance, "regeneration" or "drawing" or the "inward call". But she was not born again until she understood and responded to the gospel preached to her.

That is why we preach the gospel. How can the world be saved unless someone preach the gospel to them so they can be born again?

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:13-14

Dave L · Nov 6, 2019

His student said:
That's the commonly held assumption. But OK.

No - this is your basic mistake.

The gospel tells an unsaved person how to be justified before God and thus saved and he or she is then born again by believing that gospel.

Obviously born again people are not born again by the "living and abiding Word of God" - those in need of the new birth are.

"Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Peter 1:22-23

You may call the opening of the eyes of someone like Lydia, for instance, "regeneration" or "drawing" or the "inward call". But she was not born again until she understood and responded to the gospel preached to her.

That is why we preach the gospel. How can the world be saved unless someone preach the gospel to them so they can be born again?

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:13-14

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = you must be saved before you can believe.

BNR32FAN · Nov 6, 2019

Hammster said:
When you start off with a false premise, you will end up with a false conclusion. It’s not “for whatever reason”. It’s because they are sinners and deserve God’s wrath.

So does everyone and yet God is not a respector of persons.

bling · Nov 6, 2019

sdowney717 said:
God and Christ are not trying to save anybody.
They always succeed in what they do, God's sends His Word and it accomplishes the purposes for which it is sent.
God promises to save those who are His and send the rest to judgement. Those who are His He knew them from the before the foundation of the earth, before they did anything either good or bad. Rather than me defend 'my God' , you should examine the belief in your 'god' and see if it is just a fake caricature of the One True God found in the scriptures.

You say: “God and Christ are not trying to save anybody”, but what could possibly be God’s reason for wanting to save just some? Is God lack of Love or God’s lack of power limiting His ability to save everyone or is it man limiting God?

The God, I know who is the epitome of Love, wants everyone to be saved, but not all humans will accept His help.

You said: “He knew them from the before the foundation of the earth, before they did anything either good or bad.” Yes, God is outside of time, so He knows who, of their own free will, accepted Him or rejected Him before time began.

The Bible supports strongly the all powerful and all Loving God.

The question is how do you become “those who are His” or “remain those who are not His” without making it God’s very limited Love?

Predestination v free will compromise?

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