Salvation Cannot be Lost

Phil W · Nov 4, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"Have you considered Paul's answer to the jailer's question: "sirs, what must I DO to be saved?"
Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
Now, explain how Paul's answer aligns with your views."
So that's your answer??
But it fails to admit the FACTS; that Paul told him about the Lord Jesus (knowledge). And do you know what? He was water baptised AFTER he believed.

He was baptized because the truth was presented to him about Christ Jesus and His effect on our lives.
What is the good of belief without a corresponding action?

Peter taught that water baptism doesn't save, but is a SYMBOL of what does save: baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is totally different than getting wet.

Where?

Water baptism is a ceremony depicting what the believer has been identified in His death burial and resurrection.

I'm glad the jailer isn't here to read of your attack on his faith.

Holy Spirit baptism is a real identification with Christ.

Why do you offer so much without a scriptural basis?
Where is your proof?
"Identification with Christ"? Sounds like the deadly "man's wisdom" without scriptural backing.

Why didn't your "methods" work for the Samaritans, Cornelius, or the twelve at Ephesus?

S.ilvio · Nov 4, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
But what you seem to forget (or never knew) is that once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

That's what Jesus taught in John 10:28. "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

So, go back to your drawing board and figure out where your errors are.

Book of Hebrews. Do you accept its God Breathed content?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 4, 2019

Phil W said:
What is the good of belief without a corresponding action?

As James said, "faith without works is dead". However, many misunderstand what James meant. He sure didn't mean works are necessary for salvation. Or he would have actually said that.

He meant that unless a believer demonstrates his faith towards others, others will NOT SEE his faith. Consider this:

James 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Unfortunately, the quote marks are misplaced in this translation.

In fact, in biblehub.com, of 29 English translations, only 11 are translated this way. In 18 translations, there either aren't any quote marks (Greeks didn't use quote marks) or the end quote mark is at the end of the sentence.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

Why is this important? Because if the end quote mark is just after "I have deeds", the verse makes no sense.

So, the majority of translations have it correct. The "someone" says both sentences. He is making the point that one cannot "show you my faith" if that "someone" doesn't have deeds.

iow, it takes deeds to demonstrate one's faith. God doesn't need deeds to know a person has faith. But humans do.

I said:
"Peter taught that water baptism doesn't save, but is a SYMBOL of what does save: baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is totally different than getting wet."

Where?

We've already been through this.

1 Pet 3:21 - and this water (the literal water like that of the Noaic flood) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The red words refer to literal water, from v.20 and the Noaic flood, which, btw, KILLED everyone who was immersed in it. Hardly a salvation baptism.

The blue words show what literal water SYMBOLIZES; the baptism that DOES save you. That would be the Holy Spirit. Just as John the baptizer said:

Mark 1:8 - I indeed have baptized you with water: but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

One would have to be blind not to see that John's baptism was with water and Jesus' baptism was with the Holy Spirit, not with water.

I'm glad the jailer isn't here to read of your attack on his faith.

Please explain how I have attacked his faith. And quit your ad hominem.

I said:
"Holy Spirit baptism is a real identification with Christ."

Why do you offer so much without a scriptural basis?
Where is your proof?

lol. You're the one without any evidence from Scripture for your opinions.

I've already explained this to you, but here goes again. I hope you are paying attention.

The Greek word baptizo meant to dip in water. Yup. It was used for dipping white cloth into a vat of dye, to change the color of the cloth. The word became to mean to "identify with something else".

I don't you don't believe anything I say, so research it for yourself. I kid you not.

"Identification with Christ"? Sounds like the deadly "man's wisdom" without scriptural backing.

Said the man without biblical wisdom. Or evidence.

Consider what Paul said:
Rom 6:4 - We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Did you die when you were immersed? How silly.

Col 2:12 - having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Did you share Jesus' burial tomb with Him? The verse SAYS you were.

It is clear to most people that water baptism is a picture, a symbol, of our baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Why didn't your "methods" work for the Samaritans, Cornelius, or the twelve at Ephesus?

Why do you say they don't? What are you trying to get at?

And why do you say anything about "my methods"?

You just keep making up stuff, don'tcha.

Phil W · Nov 4, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
As James said, "faith without works is dead". However, many misunderstand what James meant. He sure didn't mean works are necessary for salvation. Or he would have actually said that.

The foundation has been layed.
Something must be done to show faith.
Whether it is by helping the needy or turning permanently from sin, something must prove the faith.

He meant that unless a believer demonstrates his faith towards others, others will NOT SEE his faith.

...because there is no faith.

Consider this:
James 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Unfortunately, the quote marks are misplaced in this translation.
In fact, in biblehub.com, of 29 English translations, only 11 are translated this way. In 18 translations, there either aren't any quote marks (Greeks didn't use quote marks) or the end quote mark is at the end of the sentence.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."
Why is this important? Because if the end quote mark is just after "I have deeds", the verse makes no sense.

The KJV has no quotation marks.
It is a moot point anyway, as the sentence starts with "Yea, a man will say,..." The remaining sentence is "what was said".

So, the majority of translations have it correct. The "someone" says both sentences. He is making the point that one cannot "show you my faith" if that "someone" doesn't have deeds.
iow, it takes deeds to demonstrate one's faith. God doesn't need deeds to know a person has faith. But humans do.

Better find a scripture that says "God doesn't need deeds to know a man has faith".

I said:
"Peter taught that water baptism doesn't save, but is a SYMBOL of what does save: baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is totally different than getting wet."

You are refuting what is written.

Mark 1:8 - I indeed have baptized you with water: but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
One would have to be blind not to see that John's baptism was with water and Jesus' baptism was with the Holy Spirit, not with water.

Yep, two different baptisms. One accomplished by men in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and the other done by God to give the gift of the Holy Ghost to men.

Please explain how I have attacked his faith.

He believed Paul and got baptized.
You say that is a waste of time.
That is a an attack on the deeds that manifested/proved his faith.

I said:
"Holy Spirit baptism is a real identification with Christ."
lol. You're the one without any evidence from Scripture for your opinions.
I've already explained this to you, but here goes again. I hope you are paying attention.

The Greek word baptizo meant to dip in water. Yup. It was used for dipping white cloth into a vat of dye, to change the color of the cloth. The word became to mean to "identify with something else".

So the cloth identifies with a new color?
Sorry, but men's wisdom just makes no sense to me since I received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Consider what Paul said:
Rom 6:4 - We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Did you die when you were immersed?

Yes, I did, thanks be to God.
Had I not been killed, I wouldn't be Christ's; as Gal 5:24 makes clear..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Your religion's tenets don't allow others to "be Christ"s"
It erroneously dismisses baptism as a work of the Law.

Col 2:12 - having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Did you share Jesus' burial tomb with Him? The verse SAYS you were.

Yes, I did share in the tomb, as well as the death and resurrection with Christ.
Didn't you?
Or were you robbed of the opportunity to kill the flesh and start to walk in the Spirit instead?

It is clear to most people that water baptism is a picture, a symbol, of our baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Only to those who don't like the idea of killing the old man "with his affections and lusts".

Why do you say they don't? What are you trying to get at?
And why do you say anything about "my methods"?
You just keep making up stuff, don'tcha.

Is this your way of avoiding the question?

S.ilvio · Nov 5, 2019

S.ilvio said:
Book of Hebrews. Do you accept its God Breathed content?

Well..?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 5, 2019

Phil W said:
Something must be done to show faith.
Whether it is by helping the needy or turning permanently from sin, something must prove the faith.

Proving your faith to whom, exactly?

I said:
"He meant that unless a believer demonstrates his faith towards others, others will NOT SEE his faith."

...because there is no faith.

This demonstrates a lack of grip on reality.

Does a genius need to prove he/she is a genius in order to BE a genius? Of course not.

Does a martial artist need to prove he/she is a martial artist inorder to BE a martial artist? Of course not.

I will repeat the point: a believer needs to demonstrate their faith IN ORDER for others to SEE their faith.

Now, apply this principle to both of my examples. The genius and martial artist will demonstrate that they are those things by their actions. But not until they do.

The KJV has no quotation marks.

Actually, a number of transalation have no quote marks. And the original Greek never used quotes, commas, periods, etc.

It is a moot point anyway, as the sentence starts with "Yea, a man will say,..." The remaining sentence is "what was said".

That's the point. The "someone" says the whole verse. Which is James' point.

Better find a scripture that says "God doesn't need deeds to know a man has faith".

This is unfortunately what I thought you'd respond with. If God needs to KNOW a man has faith, then God isn't omniscient.

Is that your view? If so, you have disrespected God. Since God IS omniscient, He DOESN'T NEED TO SEE DEEDS in order to know a man has faith. But humans DO NEED TO SEE DEEDS in order to see a man's faith.

You are
"I said:
"Peter taught that water baptism doesn't save, but is a SYMBOL of what does save: baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is totally different than getting wet."

refuting what is written.

Click to expand...

Prove your opinion. Unpack my statement against the verse. You throw claims all tht time and NEVER back them up with evidence.

Yep, two different baptisms. One accomplished by men in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and the other done by God to give the gift of the Holy Ghost to men.

Click to expand...

No. Only Holy Spirit baptism through faith in Christ remits sins. Getting wet is a symbol of what has already happened.

He believed Paul and got baptized.

Click to expand...

No, he believed in Christ and got saved. And then was baptized.

You say that is a waste of time.

Click to expand...

Here is another example of your flimsy claims and charges, and NO evidence to back it up. Where did I say water baptism was a waste of time?

Since you can't do that, just STOP lying or making stuff up.

That is a an attack on the deeds that manifested/proved his faith.

Click to expand...

I've attacked nothing but your false doctrines.

In fact, water baptism IS a deed that demonstrates one's faith. To others. Not go God, who is omniscient and already knows everything.

So the cloth identifies with a new color?

Click to expand...

You really want to disagree with this very simple and clear fact??

Sorry, but men's wisdom just makes no sense to me since I received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you might have received, but it sure isn't biblical wisdom. You just demonstrated ignorance of how dying cloth works.

I asked:
"Did you die when you were immersed?"

Yes, I did, thanks be to God.

Click to expand...

You physically died???? Are you kidding??? Sorry, but this is just simply delusional.

Had I not been killed, I wouldn't be Christ's; as Gal 5:24 makes clear..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Click to expand...

You just do not have any idea how to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Your religion's tenets don't allow others to "be Christ"s"
It erroneously dismisses baptism as a work of the Law.

Click to expand...

Do you really not read my posts, or do you prefer to ignore and keep lying about others? I already told you I don't have a religion, and I explained the difference between a religion and Christianity.

You, otoh, seem to have a religion. And religion doesn't save. None of the religions of the world. Salvation is found ONLY in Christianity.

Acts 4:12 - Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Everything else is a religion; working for salvation. Which doesn't work.

Yes, I did share in the tomb, as well as the death and resurrection with Christ.

Click to expand...

More delusion.

Didn't you?

Click to expand...

Literally, no, I didn't. And neither did you. Symbolically, yes I did. As does everyone who puts their faith in Christ for salvation.

Or were you robbed of the opportunity to kill the flesh and start to walk in the Spirit instead?

Click to expand...

No one has robbed me of anything. It does seem that you have been robbed of your reason and understanding of Scripture.

I said:
"Why do you say they don't? What are you trying to get at?
And why do you say anything about "my methods"?
You just keep making up stuff, don'tcha."

Is this your way of avoiding the question?

Click to expand...

I asked you a question, which you DODGED. Is this your way of avoiding my question?

thomas15 · Nov 5, 2019

Phil W said:
The foundation has been layed.
Something must be done to show faith.
Whether it is by helping the needy or turning permanently from sin, something must prove the faith.

FreeGrace2 said:
Proving your faith to whom, exactly?

Also may I add to FreeGrace2's response, what exactly is the "something" that must be done? How much of that "something" is required? What intensity of "something" is required? Is there a time period in which that "something" is helpful or not?

I believe that Jesus in the Bible said "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" Jn 3:3 nothing said that a man must show "something" to indicate faith to other men. I think that outward signs of faith are an area that requires caution. Matt 23:5 Note I'm not saying don't perform good works rather I'm trying to say that we cannot buy our salvation with good works (something), that would void salvation by grace alone.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 5, 2019

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Proving your faith to whom, exactly?

thomas15 said:
Also may I add to FreeGrace2's response, what exactly is the "something" that must be done? How much of that "something" is required? What intensity of "something" is required? Is there a time period in which that "something" is helpful or not?

Bingo! Thanks for the addition. And there is NO Arminian who can provide any verses about the degree of effort, works, deeds, etc that are "necessary".

I believe that Jesus in the Bible said "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" Jn 3:3 nothing said that a man must show "something" to indicate faith to other men. I think that outward signs of faith are an area that requires caution. Matt 23:5 Note I'm not saying don't perform good works rather I'm trying to say that we cannot buy our salvation with good works (something), that would void salvation by grace alone.

Amen!

thomas15 · Nov 5, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Bingo! Thanks for the addition. And there is NO Arminian who can provide any verses about the degree of effort, works, deeds, etc that are "necessary".

Once the individual wraps his head around the fact that God loves us so much that he sent his Son and that all that is actually required is that we believe on Jesus, nothing else, that it is truly salvation by grace alone through faith alone, no works required, then the burden of sin is cast aside and you will daily praise God in your heart for doing for me (and you) that which we cannot do for ourselves.

Once you know know know based on the promises of God (and not our puny good deeds) that you are heaven bound then you will want to do good things to please the Master that bought our salvation at no cost to the sinner. That's what I call Amazing Grace!

thomas15 · Nov 5, 2019

Every single false religion that man has invented has a works requirement.

However the Holy Bible teaches in many passages that we cannot purchase our salvation by works of any kind. The challenge therefore is to find an explanation for those passages that talk about works by the believer. Can we accuse the Bible of contradictions or is there an explanation that fits? Was the cross of Christ sufficient or is it necessary for us to add to it by our works?

It's either we are saved by our works or we need to determine what exactly is the role of works to the Christian. That is the challenge. That...is the challenge.

The covenant reformed are determined to convince us that there is only one judgment and that is to determine salvation or no salvation. The question, the challenge is, is there more than one judgment mentioned in the Bible? Is the Great White Throne and the Judgment Seat of Christ the same judgment or are they different? That is I believe, the question.

Phil W · Nov 5, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Proving your faith to whom, exactly?

To God, everybody they meet, old friends, relatives, himself.

I said:
"He meant that unless a believer demonstrates his faith towards others, others will NOT SEE his faith."

Those with faith don't hide it under a bushel basket.

Does a genius need to prove he/she is a genius in order to BE a genius? Of course not.

if God makes him a genius, after twenty or thirty years of "F"grade living, his genius cannot be hidden.

Does a martial artist need to prove he/she is a martial artist inorder to BE a martial artist? Of course not.

Why use fleshly comparisons to prove Godly precepts?
When the occasion warrants it, the martial artist WILL show it.

I will repeat the point: a believer needs to demonstrate their faith IN ORDER for others to SEE their faith.

Doesn't God count in your "others"?

Now, apply this principle to both of my examples. The genius and martial artist will demonstrate that they are those things by their actions. But not until they do.

As will the reborn, faithful till the end, believer, vessel of the Holy Ghost.

Faith without.....is dead.

Phil W · Nov 5, 2019

thomas15 said:
Also may I add to FreeGrace2's response, what exactly is the "something" that must be done? How much of that "something" is required? What intensity of "something" is required? Is there a time period in which that "something" is helpful or not?

How about "anything".
A life turned over to God will ONLY bear the fruit of God, and certainly not the fruit of the devil.

I believe that Jesus in the Bible said "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" Jn 3:3 nothing said that a man must show "something" to indicate faith to other men. I think that outward signs of faith are an area that requires caution. Matt 23:5 Note I'm not saying don't perform good works rather I'm trying to say that we cannot buy our salvation with good works (something), that would void salvation by grace alone.

Don't you think there will be some evidence of a conversion in a man's life after conversion?

BTW, I couldn't find "grace alone" in my bible.
In fact it is a man-made doctrine to sway men from manifesting the love of God.

Phil W · Nov 5, 2019

thomas15 said:
Once the individual wraps his head around the fact that God loves us so much that he sent his Son and that all that is actually required is that we believe on Jesus, nothing else, that it is truly salvation by grace alone through faith alone, no works required, then the burden of sin is cast aside and you will daily praise God in your heart for doing for me (and you) that which we cannot do for ourselves.

Once you know know know based on the promises of God (and not our puny good deeds) that you are heaven bound then you will want to do good things to please the Master that bought our salvation at no cost to the sinner. That's what I call Amazing Grace!

Will a man who DOESN'T, as you say, "want to do good things to please the Master that bought our salvation" be saved on the day of judgement?

Phil W · Nov 5, 2019

thomas15 said:
Every single false religion that man has invented has a works requirement.

However the Holy Bible teaches in many passages that we cannot purchase our salvation by works of any kind. The challenge therefore is to find an explanation for those passages that talk about works by the believer. Can we accuse the Bible of contradictions or is there an explanation that fits? Was the cross of Christ sufficient or is it necessary for us to add to it by our works?

It's either we are saved by our works or we need to determine what exactly is the role of works to the Christian. That is the challenge. That...is the challenge.

The covenant reformed are determined to convince us that there is only one judgment and that is to determine salvation or no salvation. The question, the challenge is, is there more than one judgment mentioned in the Bible? Is the Great White Throne and the Judgment Seat of Christ the same judgment or are they different? That is I believe, the question.

Do you think that NOT committing iniquity is a work for salvation?
Or do you think that NOT committing iniquity is a manifestation of salvation...the results of salvation?
Either way, it is a determining factor for Jesus in Mat 7:23..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

thomas15 · Nov 5, 2019

Phil W said:
How about "anything".
A life turned over to God will ONLY bear the fruit of God, and certainly not the fruit of the devil.

What we do is we study the Bible and take what the Bible teaches us and thus form our faith and theology. The Bible in many passages teaches clearly that "by grace are we saved through faith....not by works so that no man can boast". The Bible doesn't say anywhere that we must, has you say "turn our life over to God" rather it teaches that if we desire to be a child of God then we must place our faith and trust in the risen Christ. Beyond confessing sin and believing on Jesus, that he is able to save us, I'm not sure how exactly, point by point one goes about turning their life over to God.

I know, I know, you want to say one must willy nilly do all kinds of faith works to prove to man that they have placed their faith and trust in Jesus but the Bible doesn't, to my knowledge, give us actual guidelines as to what/where/when we are to perform those good deeds. We are instructed to trust Jesus, study the Word and talk to God in prayer. And do this often. Will that change hearts? Yes, I believe it will but that is not the question. The question is "what must I do to be saved?"

Phil W said:
Don't you think there will be some evidence of a conversion in a man's life after conversion?

BTW, I couldn't find "grace alone" in my bible.
In fact it is a man-made doctrine to sway men from manifesting the love of God.

I think yes there will be some evidence of conversion but I don't see where the Bible teaches that works are a requirement for salvation.

BTW, I couldn't find "a covenant of works", "a covenant of redemption", infant baptism, believers baptism, "once saved, always saved" and the Trinity in my Bible.

In fact some of those are man-made doctrines to sway men into believing that their works matter as far as salvation is concerned and others are used to sway men into placing their faith and trust in their clergy, nice as they might be.

thomas15 · Nov 5, 2019

Phil W said:
Do you think that NOT committing iniquity is a work for salvation?
Or do you think that NOT committing iniquity is a manifestation of salvation...the results of salvation?
Either way, it is a determining factor for Jesus in Mat 7:23..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The question Phil W is, and I know that it will be very difficult for you to see this but here is the question: Is the man in Matthew 7:23 being asked to leave and march himself right straight to hell or is there something else here? And I'm not talking about purgatory or another similar place. Nor am I talking about universalism. The question is, is this man saved or is he unsaved? Is Jesus in Matthew 7 in the process of judging the unsaved?

Did the thief on the cross perform works, Jesus did say he would see him in paradise, and will King Solomon, the human author of several works of Scripture, be condemned because of his transgressions at the end of his life? And what exactly does Jesus mean in Luke 12:48 "But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."?

Phil W · Nov 5, 2019

thomas15 said:
What we do is we study the Bible and take what the Bible teaches us and thus form our faith and theology. The Bible in many passages teaches clearly that "by grace are we saved through faith....not by works so that no man can boast".

I hope you realize that these words were in reference to the works of the Mosaic Law and not repentance from sin, baptism, and obedience to God.

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that we must, has you say "turn our life over to God" rather it teaches that if we desire to be a child of God then we must place our faith and trust in the risen Christ. Beyond confessing sin and believing on Jesus, that he is able to save us, I'm not sure how exactly, point by point one goes about turning their life over to God.

So "must" turn our lives over to God...is out, but "must" place our faith and trust in the living Christ...is in?
Isn't that the same thing, works wise? (Not the works of the Law Paul railed at but deeds that manifest whose children we are)
We "must" do something.

I know, I know, you want to say one must willy nilly do all kinds of faith works to prove to man that they have placed their faith and trust in Jesus but the Bible doesn't, to my knowledge, give us actual guidelines as to what/where/when we are to perform those good deeds. We are instructed to trust Jesus, study the Word and talk to God in prayer. And do this often. Will that change hearts? Yes, I believe it will but that is not the question. The question is "what must I do to be saved?"

Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Here is how...As Peter said it, repent of sin and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Grow in grace and knowledge.
There is a whole lot more we can do to manifest our love for God, but that is the start.

think yes there will be some evidence of conversion but I don't see where the Bible teaches that works are a requirement for salvation.

The works of the Law are not requirements for salvation.
Loving God above all else and our neighbors is.

BTW, I couldn't find "a covenant of works", "a covenant of redemption", infant baptism, believers baptism, "once saved, always saved" and the Trinity in my Bible.

Ick...me either.
Why hate those false doctrines but hold to "I don't need to do anything to warrant eternal life".

In fact some of those are man-made doctrines to sway men into believing that their works matter as far as salvation is concerned and others are used to sway men into placing their faith and trust in their clergy, nice as they might be.

I'm glad you can see that, but now it is time to view "No Works" in the same light.
Faith without evidence is a lie.

Phil W · Nov 5, 2019

thomas15 said:
The question Phil W is, and I know that it will be very difficult for you to see this but here is the question: Is the man in Matthew 7:23 being asked to leave and march himself right straight to hell or is there something else here? And I'm not talking about purgatory or another similar place. Nor am I talking about universalism. The question is, is this man saved or is he unsaved? Is Jesus in Matthew 7 in the process of judging the unsaved?

They are unsaved, and it is too late for them to change.

Did the thief on the cross perform works, Jesus did say he would see him in paradise,

Yes, he did.
He repented of his sin and paid a price for it. The same price we pay for our sins when we are baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

and will King Solomon, the human author of several works of Scripture, be condemned because of his transgressions at the end of his life?

Not if he used the atonements provided by the Mosaic Law.

And what exactly does Jesus mean in Luke 12:48 "But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."?

Jesus is using worldly terminology to worldly men, using a then present-day example.
If we want to move it up to the NT times, everybody is given a conscience to know right from wrong.
The Holy Ghost in a man, and further prayer and study, allow men to grow in grace and knowledge.
New converts won't know many thing before they are taught by God supplied pastors and prophets, but once they do know of them will be held to the same level of responsibility as long time converts.
One it took me time to "know" was the parameters of the Lord's supper celebration, communion.
Another was being ready to defend my faith.
But fortunately, God also gave us this hope..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
I look for the escapes.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 5, 2019

I asked:
"Proving your faith to whom, exactly?"

Phil W said:
To God, everybody they meet, old friends, relatives, himself.

I already noted that we need to demonstrate our faith to others. But why God? Don't you believe that He really knows everything??

Those with faith don't hide it under a bushel basket.

Well, just ask Peter about that. He did 3 times.

if God makes him a genius, after twenty or thirty years of "F"grade living, his genius cannot be hidden.

Please don't move the goal posts. If God makes a person a genius, and he doesn't show it, does that mean that God didn't make him a genius?

Seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If God makes a person a genius, they ARE a genius, regardless of how they behave.

I said:
"Does a martial artist need to prove he/she is a martial artist inorder to BE a martial artist? Of course not."

Why use fleshly comparisons to prove Godly precepts?

Jesus did. They are called parables.

When the occasion warrants it, the martial artist WILL show it.

If the "occasion doesn't warrant it", does that mean the guy ISN'T a martial artist? For that is what you are seeming to argue.

That only those who demonstrate their status proves they have the status. Nonsense.

I said:
"I will repeat the point: a believer needs to demonstrate their faith IN ORDER for others to SEE their faith."

Doesn't God count in your "others"?

Why? Again, don't you believe that God knows everything? That is His attribute of omniscience.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 5, 2019

Phil W said:
BTW, I couldn't find "grace alone" in my bible.

How many verses do you know that say that salvation is by grace plus works?

In fact it is a man-made doctrine to sway men from manifesting the love of God.

What do you understand about grace anyway? It seems to me not much.

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