Family Upset Brother Killed

Ana the Ist said:

Oh? Did some bullet magically appear out of nowhere or did someone shoot him for a reason?

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What on earth? what an odd statement. I think pretty much everyone here has pointed out the gunman had it coming. Why don't you refer to the comments that @Mountainmanbob said - he said it quite succinctly. You rob a store pointing a gun then you can expect trouble. No idea why you are behaving like this.

Ana the Ist said:

If we're talking about procedural or mechanical failures....I bet it's real effective.

If we're talking about human behavior, probably less so.

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That's quite true. Though its still a highly effective process even for human behaviours. I'm unaware if you know much about the RCA process - but it continues to ask why & how until you drill down to the very root causes.

So in this case - why was he shot - he was robbing the store and got shot in self-defence
Why was he robbing the store - poor upbringing, poverty, access to weapons
- the store is in a poor area with poor security
Why is there poverty in that area....and so on

So you can see the RCA process starts to look at solutions to these issues beyond the simple.

But your right - when it comes to mechanical failure the answers are more concrete and, in many ways, easier to implement solutions.

We've not really discussed the person who shot and killed him - You know, it's quite traumatising to not only have your life threatened, but then to actually kill someone in that instant. He will be having all sorts of emotions from anger at being put inthat situation, to flashbacks and trauma at ending someones life. he will be thinking... is it all worth it to work this store in this neighbourhood. It's an awful thing for him (or is it a "her" that shot him?)

Zoii said:

I guess its a case of perspective. While I can see Americans are dismayed that there is a complaint he was shot, for me, as a non-American, I am dismayed that they had guns at all. To me that's the elephant in the room that's never noticed by Americans, but obvious to everyone else outside of America.

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If they can't have guns then how can their civil servants, the police? No servant is greater than his master

Ana the Ist said:

If this were a case where the person shot and killed was killed by a stray bullet that was fired at someone else....I'd consider guns the issue. If this were a case where someone was killed by someone who had easily accessed a gun he wasn't supposed to be able to....I'd consider that guns were the issue.

In this case, though, the person killed was killed by someone lawfully owning and using a gun as intended. I don't see "there's too many guns" as even a factor in this particular case.

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Ah - OK I see you focus is on the person who shot the perp.

But step back - this started with an armed hold-up - How on earth does someone like this robber-guy get hold of a gun (legally or illegally) - you see that's where the wider discussion comes in.

But the RCA process as I mentioned before, looks at the root causes of issues - So in this case, location in a poverty area, low unemployment, heavy drug use etc get to root causes of why this all started in the first place and that's where local govt agencies have to focus their attention - or it occurs again.

The guy in the liquor store uses the same process - but his solution may be more confined - ie its a drug area, lots of hold-ups - so I'm restricting my hours of service and putting up "hold-up " protection - eg bars or bulletproof glass, or whatever is appropriate.

KarateCowboy said:

If they can't have guns then how can their civil servants, the police? No servant is greater than his master

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Well, quite easily. You legislate accordingly.

Darkhorse said:

So, his death, while unfortunate, is the result of his own illicit actions. Overall, best outcome.

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What an awful way of thinking.

Ana the Ist said:

How? Because he wanted a gun....and guns exist. We might be able to say that under different laws or regulations, it would be harder for him to get a gun...but I can't honestly say how much harder- objectively.

That doesn't even consider the possibility that he might have tried to rob the store with a knife...or machete...or baseball bat....and then get shot by our legal gun owner.

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The RCA process allows you to examine all pathways that led to the outcome.

You are introducing circumstances that did not occur. He Did attempt to rob the store with a gun. He Did Not try to rob it with a knife. This is what everyone is trying to tell you. He got shot because he was waving a gun about. Listen to the video again.

Larnievc said:

What an awful way of thinking.

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Do you have a realistic outcome that's better? If so, why is yours better?

Darkhorse said:

Do you have a realistic outcome that's better? If so, why is yours better?

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Robbery happens. No one dies. Perp is arrayed and goes to jail. Peep learns his lesson and becomes a community activist to steer young people away from crime.

Larnievc said:

Robbery happens. No one dies. Perp is arrayed and goes to jail. Peep learns his lesson and becomes a community activist to steer young people away from crime.

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The "no one dies" part is realistic, although it's only a matter of time before someone does die.

The "learns his lesson and becomes a community activist to steer young people away from crime" part is a nice fantasy, but very seldom happens in real life.

Darkhorse said:

but very seldom happens in real life.

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But it does happen. And that does not figure in your ‘best outcome’.

Is redemption not part of Chistianity?

Larnievc said:

But it does happen. And that does not figure in your ‘best outcome’.

Is redemption not part of Chistianity?

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Of course, redemption is central to Christianity. The only hope that any of us have is to be Divinely redeemed from our sinful natures. But redemption is not universal; God doesn't wave a magic wand and "fix" everyone's sinfulness. I wish He did. I wish every robbery,, etc. would end as you describe.

But it doesn't; it's actually rare for a criminal (or anyone else really) to experience a total reversal of their life which starts with repentance (changing direction) and receiving a new set of values.

In the vast majority of cases, the criminal continues on in their criminal path.
Their victims are not obligated to become martyrs; they can protect themselves and others.

Ana the Ist said:

If you're going to blame the gun...then you'd have to reasonably show that he wouldn't have used something else had no gun been obtainable.

Since you can't do that....it's not really a factor.

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No RCA's are specifically about NOT blaming. Thats kinda the processes mantra. This process is used in pretty much every industry, but it started with the Airline Industry. They found that if you went into an investigation looking to blame someone, then you dont get open honest accounts. Certainly not if you are hoping to ultimately improve quality and safety.

The whole concept is to look at factors contributing to the incident. So sure - a gun being utilised will certainly be a factor. But it will be one of many as an investigation unravels the incident.

Zoii said:

Well, quite easily. You legislate accordingly.

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The legislature represents the population at large. If the population at large does not have that right then how may it delegate it through the legislature?

KarateCowboy said:

The legislature represents the population at large. If the population at large does not have that right then how may it delegate it through the legislature?

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Like I said. You legislate. The population complies with law.