When Jesus took our sins on the cross, did he become a sinner?

PrettyboyAndy

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It wasn't that he became sinful, or that he became a sinner, but that he was counted as sin and was punished as if he were guilty under the law. He remained innocent, spotless, and pure, it was that, as an atonement and sacrifice, he bore the weight of divine wrath.

He bore the wrath that he did not deserve, so that all who are in him are saved.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

In these two verses, it says he bore our sins, and he had no sins but he have sin for us?

The issue I have with propitiation and substitutionary atonement is we are the sinner, for Christ to pay for our sins he must bear them or our sin must be transferred to him in order for him to pay them for us. So what happens to the Holiness of Christ in that exchange/transfer?
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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The wrath of God was not taken upon Jesus Christ.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

In these two verses, it says he bore our sins, and he had no sins but he have sin for us?

The issue I have with propitiation and substitutionary atonement is we are the sinner, for Christ to pay for our sins he must bear them or our sin must be transferred to him in order for him to pay them for us. So what happens to the Holiness of Christ in that exchange/transfer?
 
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Not David

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God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

In these two verses, it says he bore our sins, and he had no sins but he have sin for us?

The issue I have with propitiation and substitutionary atonement is we are the sinner, for Christ to pay for our sins he must bear them or our sin must be transferred to him in order for him to pay them for us. So what happens to the Holiness of Christ in that exchange/transfer?
It still does not say that the wrath of God was upon Him. Also how can God the Father have the wrath yet the Son and the Spirit don't?
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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It still does not say that the wrath of God was upon Him. Also how can God the Father have the wrath yet the Son and the Spirit don't?

Forget the wrath of God for now, These verses say became sin for us and bore our sins, how can God be Holy and without sin yet bear and become sin? Im having a difficult time understanding substitutionary atonement and propitiation in light of the Holiness of God
 
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GingerBeer

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Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this
Isn't the doctrine more along the lines that Jesus takes the punishment for the sins of the world?
 
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Jonaitis

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God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

In these two verses, it says he bore our sins, and he had no sins but he have sin for us?

The issue I have with propitiation and substitutionary atonement is we are the sinner, for Christ to pay for our sins he must bear them or our sin must be transferred to him in order for him to pay them for us. So what happens to the Holiness of Christ in that exchange/transfer?

The term "sin" has several meanings in Scripture. Generally speaking, it is an lack of conformity, actively or passively, to the law of God. It could be an act, a thought, a word, a state, a condition, or a standing contrary to what is right before God. He didn't literally absorb every individual sin, as the Mormons seem to teach, but rather took on the position of a sinner before God. This is what we mean by him being counted as "sin," he was counted and regarded as a sinner without being/becoming one.

Your signature says that you are a "Reformed Baptist." Just curious, are you confessionally "Reformed" or soteriologically "Reformed" (Calvinist)?
 
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GingerBeer

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Forget the wrath of God for now, These verses say became sin for us and bore our sins, how can God be Holy and without sin yet bear and become sin? Im having a difficult time understanding substitutionary atonement and propitiation in light of the Holiness of God
I suspect that the idea of substitution and to a degree propitiation are not very biblical. Better to look at sacrifice as cleansing and punishment as discipline. But people will push their denomination's doctrines first and foremost and scripture will be left half interpreted or not noticed.
 
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Jonaitis

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Forget the wrath of God for now, These verses say became sin for us and bore our sins, how can God be Holy and without sin yet bear and become sin? Im having a difficult time understanding substitutionary atonement and propitiation in light of the Holiness of God

It wasn't so much that actual "sins" were imputed to him, but that he was punished for what sin in general deserved. He was displayed as a propitiation and atonement to be received and applied by faith.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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It wasn't so much that actual "sins" were imputed to him, but that he was punished for what sin in general deserved. He was displayed as a propitiation and atonement to be received and applied by faith.

I have read all your posts, and I do appreciate everything you have shared and your stance.

But what about these verses?

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

I'm trying to understand what happened when Christ bore our sins and became sin for us - I was taught our sins were put on him and he paid for them?
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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I suspect that the idea of substitution and to a degree propitiation are not very biblical. Better to look at sacrifice as cleansing and punishment as discipline. But people will push their denomination's doctrines first and foremost and scripture will be left half interpreted or not noticed.

But Jesus took our sins upon himself to pay for them so that we have have life
 
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Jonaitis

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I have read all your posts, and I do appreciate everything you have shared and your stance.

But what about these verses?

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

I'm trying to understand what happened when Christ bore our sins and became sin for us - I was taught our sins were put on him and he paid for them?

I know, a lot of people misunderstand how the transaction works (I did for a long time). It is the language that confuses people. Some say that Christ was actually bearing our sinful actions, desires, thoughts, etc. This is not how that works (I mean how would that work?). It is the fact that Christ suffered for what sin deserved, as if he actually sinned or was "sin," and we trusting in him have our sins covered by faith from what he had done.

I realize that when the Reformers used the concept of double imputation, they explained that it is an illustration not to be taken too far. Christ cannot actually bear sin, he could only bear the penalty it deserved. Technically speaking, Jesus imputes everything - the atonement, the righteousness, etc. to us, we don't impute anything to him.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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It still does not say that the wrath of God was upon Him. Also how can God the Father have the wrath yet the Son and the Spirit don't?

Isaiah 53:10 - King James Version
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise (crush) him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

God was pleased in crushing Jesus, because God is Holy and must punish sin, and also because it was the plan of God to become a man and live a perfect holy life, and Christs perfect sinless record gets transferred to the believer, we take her righteousness and he took our sin, and we are forgiven and cleansed and washed and are a new creation. When we die we go to heaven by the blood of Christ, and we are no longer looked at as a sinner but we are justified by Christ, - Im asking about when Christ bore out sins...
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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I know, a lot of people misunderstand how the transaction works (I did for a long time). It is the language that confuses people. Some say that Christ was actually bearing our sinful actions, desires, thoughts, etc. This is not how that works (I mean how would that work?). It is the fact that Christ suffered for what sin deserved, as if he actually sinned or was "sin," and we trusting in him have our sins covered by faith from what he had done.

I realize that when the Reformers used the concept of double imputation, they explained that it is an illustration not to be taken too far. Christ cannot actually bear sin, he could only bear the penalty it deserved. Technically speaking, Jesus imputes everything - the atonement, the righteousness, etc. to us, we don't impute anything to him.


I thought something along the lines of this:

Sinner's Sin ---> taken upon Christ
Christ pays for our sins by taking upon our sins and dieing and paying for them

Christ's Righteousness -------> imputed unto the Believer
Whosoever believes and accepts Christ receives the righteousness of Christ
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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What do you make of the statements then? he became sin, and he knew no sin. Is it s contradiction?

It isn't a contradiction, but also consider these verses:

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

We must harmonize all verses together, and deduce a doctrine from all these verses
 
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Jonaitis

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I thought something along the lines of this:

Sinner's Sin ---> taken upon Christ
Christ pays for our sins by taking upon our sins and dieing and paying for them

Christ's Righteousness -------> imputed unto the Believer
Whosoever believes and accepts Christ receives the righteousness of Christ

It is more like this...(if you are on a computer)

Condemnation of the Law
----------------------------
* Sinner---------* Christ
--------------------* Believer


All that Christ suffered, accomplished, and earned is imputed to our account. He represents us in his perfect obedience (under the law and death). We are united to his person and work by faith, enjoying all the benefits.
 
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GingerBeer

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It isn't a contradiction, but also consider these verses:

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

We must harmonize all verses together, and deduce a doctrine from all these verses
It isn't always possible to harmonise all the verses. People discovered that when they tried to create a harmony of the gospels. Some passages are just not capable of being harmonised. That may apply to creating doctrine too. Many doctrines end up contradicting some passage or other and sometimes many passages. So people usually take the expedient of sticking to the doctrine and "adjusting" the verses with creative interpretations that no reader uncommitted to the doctrine would ever think of.
 
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Not David

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Forget the wrath of God for now, These verses say became sin for us and bore our sins, how can God be Holy and without sin yet bear and become sin? Im having a difficult time understanding substitutionary atonement and propitiation in light of the Holiness of God
There is a quote that I liked that explains it: " He did become sin and a curse, because He took all sin on the Cross, and cursed is every one hung from a tree according to the law. But since He is who He is, sin was obliterated. He was a sin offering, but that is not all He was.
 
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Glorytothefather2245

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Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this
No Jesus was not a sinner at that time. We needed a sacrifice for atonement of our sins. In the old testament a lamb was used for sacrifice of our sins but it is no longer necessary because Jesus became our sacrifice. Because Jesus was sinless he was worthy enough to stand before God and save mankind from sin thru him.
 
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Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this
Paul writes: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5
 
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