The ethics of voting for Donald Trump

Kaon · Nov 4, 2019

brinny said:
That's "sin".

However, those who deliberately SEEK the shedding of the blood of the "least of these" is what i was referring to.

God abhors it.

Loving the dark works of evil rather than the light is abhorrent to God.

It is written all throughout His Word.

Chatta'ath is sin - specifically, the sin condition of falling short and breaking the commandments of the Most High God.

There is no one good but the Most High God. All humans have fallen short, and therefore disqualify themselves as "good". We may do good things, but our nature is not good - no matter how much innocent blood we try to stop from being shed, no matter how much we give to charity, no matter how many "good deeds" we do. Our carnality disqualifies us from being good.

The Son of Man understood this, which is why He asked why the disciples called Him Good - and He was also asking them if they understood Who they were calling good with His statements. The young man who followed the law of God was not "good", even though he was upright.

FireDragon76 · Nov 4, 2019

brinny said:
That's "sin".

However, those who deliberately SEEK the shedding of the blood of the "least of these" is what i was referring to.

God abhors it.

Loving the dark works of evil rather than the light is abhorrent to God.

It is written all throughout His Word.

What a simplistic and naive way to look at the ethics of legalized abortion.

FireDragon76 · Nov 4, 2019

GACfan said:
Speaking of Trump's intellectual abilities, this 'stable genius' speaks at a fourth-grade level.

Trump speaks at 4th-grade level, lowest of last 15 presidents: Analysis

'Stable genius' Trump uses fourth-grade vocabulary, new analysis finds

Retired English teacher corrects letter from Trump and sends it back to White House

Reagan exhibited similar speach deficits, and it turns out he had Alzheimer's. I believe Trump has dementia as well, he definitely has the family history for it.

KarlKarlingIII · Nov 4, 2019

Isilwen said:
This is what you think that every person that has pre-marital sex feels or thinks?

In that moment, yes. Lust has more in common with hate than it does with love.

Isilwen · Nov 4, 2019

KarlKarlingIII said:
In that moment, yes. Lust has more in common with hate than it does with love.

I was with my ex-girlfriend for 10 years, we have five beautiful children together. She never wanted to be married as it was just a piece of paper.

Are you going to continue to say that? I absolutely loved her or I wouldn't have stayed with her for ten years. When she wanted to be with someone else, I wouldn't have tried to save the relationship. There was lots of hardship and I could have left at any time if it was just lust keeping me there.

I think you need to rethink your statement as it certainly doesn't apply to all cases.

Strathos · Nov 4, 2019

KarlKarlingIII said:
So they should get married at a young age. Christianity isn't oblivious of these realities. I keep repeating the biblical solution so you may finally understand. If the scriptures are "unrealistic" then this society is truly damned.

'Unrealistic' in terms of modern politics. Do you think mandatory marriage at a certain age could or should be legislatively enforced?

Flyover America has a lot more of these problems because it's poor and doesn't have the luxury big, limousine liberal cities have in rooting out these problems. I would like to see those statistics in any case.

Then shouldn't you be advocating for better funding for the necessary infrastructure?

Also, here: Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S

You keep using this language of "unwanted pregnancy", but is any child "unwanted" according to Christian teachings? No.

By 'unwanted pregnancy', I simply mean a pregnancy that was not intended by one or both of the parents, and which they do not wish to keep. I'm not praising this attitude, just pointing out that it exists and it is common.

I understand that you're an idealist, and I can admire that. But sometimes you need to accept a compromise.

FireDragon76 · Nov 4, 2019

KarlKarlingIII said:
In that moment, yes. Lust has more in common with hate than it does with love.

Ridiculous. It's these sorts of pompous pronouncements, divorced from the lived-experiences of so many people, that alienate people from your religion.

GACfan · Nov 4, 2019

expos4ever said:
For your sakes, and the sakes of the rest of us, I hope enough of you come to your senses to restore a modicum of credibility to a once-respected office.

It's doubtful that the Republican Party will ever recover its credibility and repair its moral reputation in the aftermath of Donald Trump or be able to honestly claim that it's still the political party of Christian morality and traditional family values in the aftermath of Trump either. The truth is, this political party can no longer take the moral high ground on morality and ethical issues anymore. It doesn't have that kind of credibility and respect after three years of Donald Trump representing them and their politics.

durangodawood · Nov 4, 2019

David Neos said:
Voting is a delusion.

That depends on how you see it.

KarlKarlingIII · Nov 4, 2019

Strathos said:
'Unrealistic' in terms of modern politics. Do you think mandatory marriage at a certain age could or should be legislatively enforced?

Then shouldn't you be advocating for better funding for the necessary infrastructure?

Also, here: Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S

By 'unwanted pregnancy', I simply mean a pregnancy that was not intended by one or both of the parents, and which they do not wish to keep. I'm not praising this attitude, just pointing out that it exists and it is common.

I understand that you're an idealist, and I can admire that. But sometimes you need to accept a compromise.

There shouldn't be law dictating you have to marry at a certain age, I just mean society needs to shift its priorities. The parental approach of laissez faire has failed.

No wonder our society is wrecked with infidelity and dishonesty if we cannot even approach our loved ones on matters concerning their souls.

FireDragon76 said:
Ridiculous. It's these sorts of pompous pronouncements, divorced from the lived-experiences of so many people, that alienate people from your religion.

Lived-experience is not truth.

Strathos · Nov 4, 2019

KarlKarlingIII said:
There shouldn't be law dictating you have to marry at a certain age, I just mean society needs to shift its priorities. The parental approach of laissez faire has failed.

No wonder our society is wrecked with infidelity and dishonesty if we cannot even approach our loved ones on matters concerning their souls.

This whole thread has been about national laws, like a proposed law to outlaw abortion.

Click to expand...

Strathos · Nov 4, 2019

Anyway, in answer to the OP, I would not say that anyone who votes for him is necessarily immoral. The arguments given to justify it, however, are all from the perspective of single-issue voters. I also don't believe that it is necessarily immoral to be a single-issue voter, but I am not one myself.

KarlKarlingIII · Nov 4, 2019

Isilwen said:
I was with my ex-girlfriend for 10 years, we have five beautiful children together. She never wanted to be married as it was just a piece of paper.

Are you going to continue to say that? I absolutely loved her or I wouldn't have stayed with her for ten years. When she wanted to be with someone else, I wouldn't have tried to save the relationship. There was lots of hardship and I could have left at any time if it was just lust keeping me there.

I think you need to rethink your statement as it certainly doesn't apply to all cases.

I would advise you to not take personal offense at me criticizing sins. This is not a personal attack on you. Most of the time when these separations happen it is based on the idea of “I will find someone better” “I will fall in love again”. But what about the children? Now they have two fathers... at their most impressionable time in life. And first time divorcees have doubled their chance of having another divorce.

I am also speaking of monogamous, Christian marriage as a custom not simply the legal contract.

FireDragon76 · Nov 4, 2019

KarlKarlingIII said:
Lived-experience is not truth.

I have no interest in "truth" that is only accessible to priests and bishops.

KarlKarlingIII · Nov 4, 2019

@Strathos
I am in favor of outlawing abortion as it is murder. Mandating marriage is not a law I would make but a social pressure I would hope returns.

FireDragon76 said:
I have no interest in "truth" that is only accessible to priests and bishops.

That is not the Christian teaching in almost any group according to my knowledge. Priests and bishops do not have a monopoly on truth, neither Orthodox nor Roman Catholics nor Protestants hold that. There were crises in the Orthodox Church when very few bishops and priests were teaching the truth such as the Arian crisis.
After all it was Pontius Pilate who asked skeptically “What is truth?” John 18:37
Skepticism/relativism is an obfuscation of Christ who is the truth.
To say truth does not interest you is self refuting. Surely you hold certain truth statements about the universe.

Not David · Nov 4, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I have no interest in "truth" that is only accessible to priests and bishops.

I believe he is not a priest or a bishop.

FireDragon76 · Nov 4, 2019

KarlKarlingIII said:
@Strathos
I am in favor of outlawing abortion as it is murder. Mandating marriage is not a law I would make but a social pressure I would hope returns.

That is not the Christian teaching in almost any group according to my knowledge. Priests and bishops do not have a monopoly on truth, neither Orthodox nor Roman Catholics nor Protestants hold that. There were crises in the Orthodox Church when very few bishops and priests were teaching the truth such as the Arian crisis.
After all it was Pontius Pilate who asked skeptically “What is truth?” John 18:37
Skepticism/relativism is an obfuscation of Christ who is the truth.
To say truth does not interest you is self refuting. Surely you hold certain truth statements about the universe.

In the words of my teacher, the Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh, "Truth is found in life".

From his 14 Principles of Engaged Buddhism:

1. Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.

2. Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others’ viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.

I find his principles to be wise. I am not troubled by the charge of "relativism", if that means I don't aspire to hold to rigid, fixed perspectives. It is in keeping with what I have been taught to be open to the experience of others. On the contrary, experience is the only way we have for knowing truth.

KarlKarlingIII · Nov 4, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
In the words of my teacher, the Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh, "Truth is found in life".

From his 14 Principles of Engaged Buddhism:

I find his principles to be wise. I am not troubled by the charge of "relativism", if that means I don't aspire to hold to rigid, fixed perspectives. It is in keeping with what I have been taught to be open to the experience of others. On the contrary, experience is the only way we have for knowing truth.

Relativism eats itself as it opens its own principles up to a relativistic critique. How do we know the proposition that there are no universal truths is true if there are no universal truths, including that proposition?

coffee4u · Nov 4, 2019

Sparagmos said:
This is what you said:

No need to be rude. I think most people would read that and assume you meant that handing out condoms would encourage ppl to have premarital sex.

You were the one who took what I said and twisted it.
Handing out condoms to teenagers will encourage premarital sex. It sends a message of "Heres a condom, I am giving it to you because I expect you will need it" Got one, may as well try it out. They need to know that having sex is an adult responsibility and all the risks associated with it.

I think anyone that’s had sex knows that interrupting the act to run to the store for condoms isn’t ideal, and a lot of young people don’t think ahead. But the important part here is education. Many pro-lifers promote abstinence only education which doesn’t teach anything about condoms! I grew up with that education and didn’t think a condom would be any better than “pulling out.”

Abstinence should be taught and some young people do practice abstinence. Have you not seen purity rings? As wrong as it is to assume teenagers won't have sex it is also wrong to assume all teenagers will have sex. Some teenagers are more mature than some adults. They also need to know how pregnancy happens, STD's and know about the different forms of BC and all its associated risks.
Common side effects of oral contraceptives include:

intermenstrual spotting
nausea
breast tenderness
headaches and migraine
weight gain
mood changes
missed periods
decreased libido
vaginal discharge
changes to eyesight for those using contact lenses
Along with may prevent implantation of a fertilized ovum.

Again people seem so blase about handing out medicalized drugs to young people.

The other thing which regular school-based sex education lacks is ethics and the effect on the emotional and spiritual side of things. A lot of girls give into boys because boys pressurize them.

Simply making condoms free and widely available will absolutely prevent abortions. Even if it’s just a few babies saved from abortion, isn’t it worth it?

By 'free' you mean taxpayers pay for them so kids can go have sex? If these kids are fully informed and won't practice abstinence then they can also be mature enough to go pay for them. A girl should know that any boy she sleeps with is potentially the father of her baby, even if protection is used. I think many kids are not given the hard raw truth but a glossed over rosy version. A packet of condoms and they think they are free as a bird; meanwhile emotional, spiritual and physical calamities they were not ready for may be just around the corner.

expos4ever · Nov 4, 2019

KarlKarlingIII said:
Relativism eats itself as it opens its own principles up to a relativistic critique. How do we know the proposition that there are no universal truths is true if there are no universal truths, including that proposition?

I think your argument has a problem. To assert that there are no MORAL absolutes does not mean there are no OTHER kinds of absolutes, such as the claim that there are no moral absolutes (this claim is NOT a moral claim, even though it is a claim ABOUT morals).

The ethics of voting for Donald Trump

Is it ethical to vote for Trump?

Yes

No

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