The 'Prosperity Gospel'

Strong in Him

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As I have already stated, you are free to reduce abundance to a level you are comfortable with.

And you are free to read into Jesus' words and try to make him say something that he didn't.
It's not a very wise thing to do; but you do it if you wish.

Many Christians are comfortable too believing that God can heal them but it is up to his will. Those who are against divine healing as part of the abundant life are usually against financial prosperity as well.

I don't know of anyone who is against healing; I'm certainly not.
God healed me 10 years ago from M.E - despite some people from the W.O.F movement telling me that I would never be healed because I didn't have faith.
And if God chooses to bless you, or anyone else financially - fantastic. You/they have a responsibility then to use that wealth wisely and for the Kingdom. I'm not against that either.

What I AM against is anyone teaching that Christians have a RIGHT to physical healing and financial prosperity, plucking various Scriptures out of context to "prove" that and implying, or sometimes stating, that this prosperity proves a Christian's faith - and the lack of it means the Christian has no/little faith.
I am not saying, necessarily that you are saying this, but some on these forums have said it - especially years ago when there was no separate W.O.F forum. There were debates on healing in abundance then, not to mention acrimony and insults, which got many of the threads closed down.
 
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Guojing

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And you are free to read into Jesus' words and try to make him say something that he didn't.
It's not a very wise thing to do; but you do it if you wish.



I don't know of anyone who is against healing; I'm certainly not.
God healed me 10 years ago from M.E - despite some people from the W.O.F movement telling me that I would never be healed because I didn't have faith.
And if God chooses to bless you, or anyone else financially - fantastic. You/they have a responsibility then to use that wealth wisely and for the Kingdom. I'm not against that either.

What I AM against is anyone teaching that Christians have a RIGHT to physical healing and financial prosperity, plucking various Scriptures out of context to "prove" that and implying, or sometimes stating, that this prosperity proves a Christian's faith - and the lack of it means the Christian has no/little faith.
I am not saying, necessarily that you are saying this, but some on these forums have said it - especially years ago when there was no separate W.O.F forum. There were debates on healing in abundance then, not to mention acrimony and insults, which got many of the threads closed down.

From God’s perspective he sees all of us healed and prosperous in our spirit.

How the angel of the lord greeted Gideon is the best example from scripture about this.

From men’s perspective, we need to renew our mind and see the same thing as God, before it can manifest in the physical realm.
 
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Strong in Him

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From God’s perspective he sees all of us healed and prosperous in our spirit.

How the angel of the lord greeted Gideon is the best example from scripture about this.

From men’s perspective, we need to renew our mind and see the same thing as God, before it can manifest in the physical realm.

Yet that is not how Jesus worked, nor what he taught.
Nowhere did he say "in God's eyes you can already see; do you believe that/can you you visualise it? Well then, you're healed." He didn't even ask everyone if they had faith or believed in God before he healed them.

Like I said, God healed me from M.E.
I didn't believe, or have faith in, the W.O.F teachings at the time - and I still don't. This is not at all the same as not having faith. But anyway, the Lord didn't ask me if I had faith; he just healed me.
 
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Guojing

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Yet that is not how Jesus worked, nor what he taught.
Nowhere did he say "in God's eyes you can already see; do you believe that/can you you visualise it? Well then, you're healed." He didn't even ask everyone if they had faith or believed in God before he healed them.

Like I said, God healed me from M.E.
I didn't believe, or have faith in, the W.O.F teachings at the time - and I still don't. This is not at all the same as not having faith. But anyway, the Lord didn't ask me if I had faith; he just healed me.

Mark 11:23-24
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
 
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Strong in Him

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Mark 11:23-24
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

I repeat, Jesus never said to anyone "you have already been healed and can see/walk/hear; all you have to do is believe that and the symptoms will go." That didn't happen. Sometimes Jesus didn't even ask about their faith nor what they wanted from him - he just healed.
Taking verses out of context and making proof texts of them, won't change that fact.

The Son of God did not teach, nor practice, what you are claiming.
 
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Guojing

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I repeat, Jesus never said to anyone "you have already been healed and can see/walk/hear; all you have to do is believe that and the symptoms will go." That didn't happen. Sometimes Jesus didn't even ask about their faith nor what they wanted from him - he just healed.
Taking verses out of context and making proof texts of them, won't change that fact.

The Son of God did not teach, nor practice, what you are claiming.

I get it, you don't want to believe that God wants you well and prosperous always. That is fine by me.

As I already stated so many times, you are free to reduce abundance to a level you are comfortable with in believing. Cheers
 
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Strong in Him

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I get it, you don't want to believe that God wants you well and prosperous always. That is fine by me.

As I already stated so many times, you are free to reduce abundance to a level you are comfortable with in believing. Cheers

I'm guessing that means that you have no answer for my observation that Jesus never said, "you already have your healing, just believe it".
I'm not surprised. It's hard to disagree with something that isn't there.

Again, if God blesses me, you or anyone else financially; great. With lots of money comes lots of responsibility.
But the implication that all Christians have a right to expect material blessing from God, and if they don't get it it reflects on their faith, is completely wrong and unscriptural.
I wouldn't be surprised if it were popular though. People want to believe they will have money and a comfortable life - it's more attractive than "take up your cross and follow me."
 
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Guojing

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I'm guessing that means that you have no answer for my observation that Jesus never said, "you already have your healing, just believe it".
I'm not surprised. It's hard to disagree with something that isn't there.

Again, if God blesses me, you or anyone else financially; great. With lots of money comes lots of responsibility.
But the implication that all Christians have a right to expect material blessing from God, and if they don't get it it reflects on their faith, is completely wrong and unscriptural.
I wouldn't be surprised if it were popular though. People want to believe they will have money and a comfortable life - it's more attractive than "take up your cross and follow me."

To me its simple. Its God's will for everyone to be saved. No Christian, bar Calvinists and their TULIP, I have seen so far, including you, would ever doubt that to be true.

At the same time, together with salvation, Jesus's death on the cross paid for "more things". Many Christians have problems believing those "more things" because, unlike salvation, one can verify with physical sight whether those happen or not.

So its natural that there will be many who don't want to believe in those "more things". That is fine by me. Jesus himself made the most insightful point, "which is easier to say? Thy sins are forgiven or rise get up and walk"?
 
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To me its simple. Its God's will for everyone to be saved.

Absolutely.

At the same time, together with salvation, Jesus's death on the cross paid for "more things".

That's the bit that's not Scriptural.
We have every spiritual blessing in Christ; yes, Ephesians 1:3.
If we are in Christ we are heirs, together with him, of the Father; yes, Romans 8:17

But it seems that some think that these "other things" have to include a good, comfortable lifestyle, perfect health and lots of money. As though someone, somewhere, has taken the phrase "abundant life" in John 10:10 and thought, "what do I mean by 'abundant life'? I know - perfect, comfortable lifestyle, therefore that must be what God wants for us too. Let me try and find a few verses that would confirm that".
All the while ignoring that Jesus gave us warnings about not loving money - which I have already quoted - and told his disciples to take up their cross and follow him.

Many Christians have problems believing those "more things" because, unlike salvation, one can verify with physical sight whether those happen or not.

No. Many Christians believe in healing and that God can heal today, but challenge your teaching that we have a "right" to it and that it was promised by the cross.

So its natural that there will be many who don't want to believe in those "more things".

Because if those "more things" are a perfect body and bloated bank balance, they are not promised anywhere in Scripture.
Jesus said, "seek and you will find", Matthew 7:7.
Jesus said that only a few find the narrow gate which leads to life, Matthew 7:14.
Jesus said that if the world hated him it would hate his disciples too, John 15:18-19
Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted because of him, John 16:1-3
Jesus said his followers should take up their cross and follow him, Mark 8:34 and that whoever loved his life would lose it Mark 8:34.
Jesus told several people that there was a cost to being a disciple, Luke 9:57-62, Luke 13:25-33.
In other words, being a disciple is hard, requires commitment and involves a cost.

How does the teaching "you have a right to a good bank balance and easy life" fit that?
No one would persecute Christians for that message. It tells people what they want to hear and, in fact, is the very message that the world gives - "buy this wine/car, take these holidays on credit, buy nice clothes etc etc; you have the right to think of you and have a good life".
We are called to be different, (which is what 'holy' means; set apart.) We are told not to love the world, be salt of the earth and so on. Jesus' message was that the first shall be last and the last first; he turned all the world's values upside down.
 
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Who said put the will of the Father first, loving all as self.

I think you did.
Jesus said that his Father's will is that people believe in the Son and receive eternal life. John 6:40
 
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timothyu

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I think you did.
Jesus said that his Father's will is that people believe in the Son and receive eternal life. John 6:40
So you will conveniently ignore His commandments? That is not believing in the Son. Message, not just messenger.
 
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Guojing

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Absolutely.



That's the bit that's not Scriptural.
We have every spiritual blessing in Christ; yes, Ephesians 1:3.
If we are in Christ we are heirs, together with him, of the Father; yes, Romans 8:17

But it seems that some think that these "other things" have to include a good, comfortable lifestyle, perfect health and lots of money. As though someone, somewhere, has taken the phrase "abundant life" in John 10:10 and thought, "what do I mean by 'abundant life'? I know - perfect, comfortable lifestyle, therefore that must be what God wants for us too. Let me try and find a few verses that would confirm that".
All the while ignoring that Jesus gave us warnings about not loving money - which I have already quoted - and told his disciples to take up their cross and follow him.



No. Many Christians believe in healing and that God can heal today, but challenge your teaching that we have a "right" to it and that it was promised by the cross.



Because if those "more things" are a perfect body and bloated bank balance, they are not promised anywhere in Scripture.
Jesus said, "seek and you will find", Matthew 7:7.
Jesus said that only a few find the narrow gate which leads to life, Matthew 7:14.
Jesus said that if the world hated him it would hate his disciples too, John 15:18-19
Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted because of him, John 16:1-3
Jesus said his followers should take up their cross and follow him, Mark 8:34 and that whoever loved his life would lose it Mark 8:34.
Jesus told several people that there was a cost to being a disciple, Luke 9:57-62, Luke 13:25-33.
In other words, being a disciple is hard, requires commitment and involves a cost.

How does the teaching "you have a right to a good bank balance and easy life" fit that?
No one would persecute Christians for that message. It tells people what they want to hear and, in fact, is the very message that the world gives - "buy this wine/car, take these holidays on credit, buy nice clothes etc etc; you have the right to think of you and have a good life".
We are called to be different, (which is what 'holy' means; set apart.) We are told not to love the world, be salt of the earth and so on. Jesus' message was that the first shall be last and the last first; he turned all the world's values upside down.

Yes, as expected you have absolute confidence that salvation for all is God’s will. You are willing to take the bible literally there.

But when it comes to healing and finances, our natural eyes makes it hard for us to take the bible literally. It is Indeed harder to us to say rise, get up and walk
 
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