Islam Muhammads Isra

Yytz6 · Sep 7, 2019

mindlight said:
You have a rather inflated view of the power of your arguments if you think they constituted a refutation.

Fact is Caliph Umar when he conquered Jerusalem expected to find a mosque there matching the description which Muhammad had given. He even read sura 17 when he entered the city. What he found instead was a rubbish dump on the site of a Jewish attempt to rebuild the temple AND no mosque. He then made up some rather lame excuse not to pray and worship with the Patriarch in a church and left.

Muslim tradition has been well nigh unanimous in describing Muhammads Isra to Jerusalem and to a mosque. BUT THERE WAS NO MOSQUE so all this demonstrates is Muhammads ignorance of the Temple MOunt when he made up his account of the Isra and Miraj

I repeat, a mosque doesn't need a specific building or even a building for it to be.

mindlight · Sep 8, 2019

Yytz6 said:
I repeat, a mosque doesn't need a specific building or even a building for it to be.

The Arabic word used cannot refer to a site and was not used like that by Ali for instance.

The term used for mosque (masjid (Arabic: مَـسْـجِـد‎)) occurs only for building structure of worship, but does not mean to site or a location without building structure.....Masjid is a place of prayer: here it refers TO THE KAB’AH at Mecca. As a “house of Worship”, not a place. (Ali, p. 57, 2:128 (102))

Isra and Mi'raj - Wikipedia

mindlight · Sep 8, 2019

Yytz6 said:
You favorite source doesn't state clearly or at all the source of what you quoted.

"الأَرْضُ كُلُّهَا مَسْجِدٌ إِلاَّ الْمَقْبَرَةَ وَالْحَمَّامَ

"The Messenger of Allah said: 'All the earth is a mosque, except for graveyards and Hammam.'"

The Book On The Mosques And The Congregations - Sunan Ibn Majah - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Masjid is not just a building. It doesn't require a building. The whole mount is Masjid Al-Aqsa.

If the whole world is a mosque then why does Ali use the word to describe the Great Mosque in Mecca and why does Muslim tradition point so strongly to a mosque in Jerusalem for the Isra.

Limo · Sep 8, 2019

Al Masihi said:
Abraham never went to Arabia, why would he anyways, the area where Mecca was was regarded as barren and deserted during the time of Abraham, the only inhabited areas in the Arabian Peninsula were Yemen or south Arabia, Eastern Arabia or on the coasts, or in the Northern part close to Mesopotamia and the Levant. Most of Hejaz at the time was uninhabited and infertile anyways why would Abraham leave Mesopotamia and the Levant for there and why would God tell him to do so if the land that was promised to him was Canaan while he was in the city of Ur in Mesopotamia which is in modern day Iraq. How does any of this make any sense from a religious or logical perspective. As for the temple in Jerusalem it was built by King Solomon, atleast the first one was before it was destroyed by the Babylonians and then rebuilt after the Israelites were resettled there by the Persians, the second temple was then destroyed in 70 AD by the Roman Empire, and aside from many failed attempts to rebuild a third temple nothing has ever really stood on the mount close enough to the first and second temple.

If you're talking about "make scenes", answer these questions with little "sciene ":

Where did Ibraheem sent his wife and elder son Ismaeel ?

The place is holy regardless if it's a dung-hill during Christian Roma Empire, or built, or destroyed. It exists since Ibraheem and may be since Adam.
Moslems used the existing building at that time.

Moslems built the Dome mosque

Barney2.0 · Sep 8, 2019

Limo said:
If you're talking about "make scenes", answer these questions with little "sciene ":

Where did Ibraheem sent his wife and elder son Ismaeel ?

The place is holy regardless if it's a dung-hill during Christian Roma Empire, or built, or destroyed. It exists since Ibraheem and may be since Adam.
Moslems used the existing building at that time.

Moslems built the Dome mosque

Abraham sent his son Ishmael to the wilderness of Paran which is right here:

He didn’t send him to an unknown infertile area in southern Hejaz. It being holy or not isn’t the point, the point is that there was no building on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem at the time of Mohammed’s supposed visit, so this indicates that the Quran and other Islamic sources contain a major historical error and also reveals the late composition of the Quranic text which was likely composed in the beginning of the Umayyad caliphate.

Barney2.0 · Sep 8, 2019

Yytz6 said:
and parts of the walls with doorways.

Rebuttals to Islamic Awareness

Yytz6 · Sep 8, 2019

mindlight said:
If the whole world is a mosque then why does Ali use the word to describe the Great Mosque in Mecca and why does Muslim tradition point so strongly to a mosque in Jerusalem for the Isra.

I think I answered that already.

The source in your Wikipedia article isn't clear. So I checked the translation of the meaning of the Qur'an by Yusuf Ali - I assume that's what it's referring to - and came up with some parts (not the same parts as mentioned in the article though but paragraphs nearby) mentioning 'the house of Allah' which some think is an argument for this.

This is false:

Ali does, however, confirm that masjid al-haram refers to an actual physical building, namely the Kabah, and not merely to a site or place: … Masjid is a place of prayer: here it refers TO THE KAB’AH at Mecca. As a “house of Worship”, not a place. (Ali, p. 57, 2:128 (102))

But then the link after it appears to lead to another book, translated by Asad instead of Ali.

In Yusuf Ali's commentary (though I think he didn't actually write all of the commentary on his book) he separates the Kabah and the Masjid Al-haram. But even without all that. Saying that Masjid (be it a building or not) is a place of prayer is not incorrect or change things on any way, seeing as a special building or space made into a mosque is a mosque even if the area surrounding it (the whole world), in another sense, is a mosque as well.

A person who lives in a forest can live in a tent and still be living in a forest as well.

Yytz6 · Sep 9, 2019

mindlight said:
The Arabic word used cannot refer to a site and was not used like that by Ali for instance.

It probably refers to Muhammad Asad's translation of the meaning and commentary:

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
2:125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary:102 take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer."103 And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael: "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it,104 and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves [in prayer]."

Note 102
The Temple (al-bayt)-lit., "the House [of Worship]"'-mentioned here is the Ka`bah in Mecca . In other places the Qur'an speaks of it as "the Ancient Temple " (al-bayt al-'atiq), and frequently also as "the Inviolable House of Worship" (al-masjid al-haram ). Its prototype is said to have been built by Abraham as the first temple ever dedicated to the One God (see 3:96), and which for this reason has been instituted as the direction of prayer (giblah) for all Muslims, and as the goal of the annually recurring pilgrimage (hajj). It is to be noted that even in pre-Islamic times the Ka`bah was associated with the memory of Abraham, whose personality had always been in the foreground of Arabian thought. According to very ancient Arabian traditions, it was at the site of what later became Mecca that Abraham, in order to placate Sarah, abandoned his Egyptian bondwoman Hagar and their child Ishmael after he had brought them there from Canaan . This is by no means improbable if one bears in mind that for a camel-riding bedouin (and Abraham was certainly one) a journey of twenty or even thirty days has never been anything out of the ordinary. At first glance, the Biblical statement (Genesis xii, 14) that it was "in the wilderness of Beersheba " (i.e., in the southernmost tip of Palestine ) that Abraham left Hagar and Ishmael would seem to conflict with the Qur'anic account. This seeming contradiction, however, disappears as soon as we remember that to the ancient, town-dwelling Hebrews the term "wilderness of Beersheba " comprised all the desert regions south of Palestine , including the Hijaz. It was at the place where they had been abandoned that Hagar and Ishmael, after having discovered the spring which is now called the Well of Zamzam, eventually settled; and it may have been that very spring which in time induced a wandering group of bedouin families belonging to the South-Arabian (Qahtani) tribe of Jurhum to settle there. Ishmael later married a girl of this tribe, and so became the progenitor of the musta `ribah ("Arabianized") tribes -thus called on account of their descent from a Hebrew father and a Qahtani mother. As for Abraham, he is said to have often visited Hagar and Ishmael; and it was on the occasion of one of these periodic visits that he, aided by Ishmael, erected the original structure of the Ka`bah. (For more detailed accounts of the Abraham'c tradition, see Bukhari's Sahih, Kitab al- 'Ilm, Tabari 's Ta'rikh al-Umam, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Hisham, Mas'udi's Muruj adh-Dhahab, Yaqut's Mu'jam al-Buldan, and other early Muslim historians.)

Note 103
This may refer to the immediate vicinity of the Ka'bah or, more probably (Manar I, 461 f.), to the sacred precincts (haram) surrounding it. The word amn (lit., "safety") denotes in this context a sanctuary for all living beings.

Note 104
The seven-fold circumambulation (tawaf) of the Ka'bah is one of the rites of the pilgrimage, symbolically indicating that all human actions and endeavours ought to have the idea of God and His oneness for their centre.

But that doesn't help us with the Wikipedia article written quite obviously by someone who has more than just doubts against islam and lets it show in his writing in a Wikipedia article.

"Ali does, however, confirm that masjid al-haram refers to an actual physical building, namely the Kabah, and not merely to a site or place: … Masjid is a place of prayer: here it refers TO THE KAB’AH at Mecca. As a “house of Worship”, not a place. (Ali, p. 57, 2:128 (102))"

He isnt quoting the words, which is good since he isn't using quotiation marks but if only the actual text would fit his claim.

1)not Ali's book
2)The writer writes that in the Quran the Kabah is frequently referred to as Masjid al-haram, as well as The House of Worship and The Ancient Temple. This doesn't mean Masjid al-haram = Kabah.

mindlight said:
The term used for mosque (masjid (Arabic: مَـسْـجِـد‎)) occurs only for building structure of worship, but does not mean to site or a location without building structure..

Still haven't found the source for this - clearly Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. At this it only cites youtube, once. But even if we say it was as the paragraph says, one person's opinion (majority of whose hadiths have been rejected by large) isn't proof of anything.

mindlight said:
...Masjid is a place of prayer: here it refers TO THE KAB’AH at Mecca. As a “house of Worship”, not a place. (Ali, p. 57, 2:128 (102))

Isra and Mi'raj - Wikipedia

"Ali does, however, confirm that masjid al-haram refers to an actual physical building, namely the Kabah, and not merely to a site or place: … Masjid is a place of prayer: here it refers TO THE KAB’AH at Mecca. As a “house of Worship”, not a place. (Ali, p. 57, 2:128 (102)"

The verse and commentary referred to doesn't say 'Masjid' at all. So 'Masjid is a place of prayer' is here written by the editor of the Wikipedia article not by Asad in his commentary. Of course Masjid is place of prayer but it is here used simply to twist the meaning of the commentary and the verse.

Yytz6 · Sep 9, 2019

Al Masihi said:
The tafsirs and certain Hadiths describe Mohammed as opening the doors of the masjid and entering through them, so it was obviously a building tafsir Ibn Kathir the most reliable tafsir among Sunni Muslims also supports the viewpoint it was a physical building that Mohammed prayed in. The only ruins that would have been there of the original temple at the time would be bricks here and there and the western wall of course.

Can you quote or link any sources? To the hadiths about opening of doors and to ibn kathir's view? Why are you so sure there was nothing more left there than that? Is it based on some historical evidence?

Limo · Sep 9, 2019

Al Masihi said:
Abraham sent his son Ishmael to the wilderness of Paran which is right here:

View attachment 262716

He didn’t send him to an unknown infertile area in southern Hejaz. It being holy or not isn’t the point the point is that there was no building on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem at the time of Mohammed supposed visit, so this indicates that the Quran and other Islamic sources contain a major historical error and also reveals the late composition of the Quranic text which was likely composed in the beginning of the Umayyad caliphate.

What is your reference for naming this area as Paran ?
What is your sources that make you sure that there was no building in mountain temple location?

mindlight · Sep 9, 2019

Yytz6 said:
It probably refers to Muhammad Asad's translation of the meaning and commentary:

But that doesn't help us with the Wikipedia article written quite obviously by someone who has more than just doubts against islam and lets it show in his writing in a Wikipedia article.

"Ali does, however, confirm that masjid al-haram refers to an actual physical building, namely the Kabah, and not merely to a site or place: … Masjid is a place of prayer: here it refers TO THE KAB’AH at Mecca. As a “house of Worship”, not a place. (Ali, p. 57, 2:128 (102))"

He isnt quoting the words, which is good since he isn't using quotiation marks but if only the actual text would fit his claim.

1)not Ali's book
2)The writer writes that in the Quran the Kabah is frequently referred to as Masjid al-haram, as well as The House of Worship and The Ancient Temple. This doesn't mean Masjid al-haram = Kabah.

Still haven't found the source for this - clearly Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. At this it only cites youtube, once. But even if we say it was as the paragraph says, one person's opinion (majority of whose hadiths have been rejected by large) isn't proof of anything.

"Ali does, however, confirm that masjid al-haram refers to an actual physical building, namely the Kabah, and not merely to a site or place: … Masjid is a place of prayer: here it refers TO THE KAB’AH at Mecca. As a “house of Worship”, not a place. (Ali, p. 57, 2:128 (102)"

The verse and commentary referred to doesn't say 'Masjid' at all. So 'Masjid is a place of prayer' is here written by the editor of the Wikipedia article not by Asad in his commentary. Of course Masjid is place of prayer but it is here used simply to twist the meaning of the commentary and the verse.

In the hadiths the full phrase is often used :Masjid al-Aqsa or Masjid al-Haram. That is a specific building not just a place in both cases and has always been understood as such in the Muslim world. But there was no building there at the time of Muhammad. The below article lists a great many hadiths that affirm this interpretation

Muhammad's Alleged Night Journey to the Jerusalem Temple

From the talk section behind the Wikipedia article it seems that many people consider this article to assume the truth of the Muslim story rather than to be biased against it and are incredulous we grant any credibility to an account of a journey for which there is no proof and the facts of which contradict reality. The talk also says that this is not definitely described in the Quran (the farthest mosque could be anywhere even if most Muslims have always understood that to be Al-Aqsa) but is stressed by Muslims as if it were obvious that Jerusalem was Islams third holiest city and Muhammad had his Isra to there. Actually ever since a disappointed Umar conquered the place it has been a somewhat neglected backwater compared to other Islamic cities like Cairo, Baghdad, Constantinople and its political significance has been overstressed ever since that well known Nazi the Grand Mufti in the 1920s started talking about Muhammads winged mule being tethered to the Western wall. With British and then Israeli control of the city suddenly it was important to Muslims to win it back and they started stressing stories that might make the case for that around about then.

That Muhammad may have visited a Jerusalem rubbish dump on a winged mule and then journeyed to heaven, from there of all places ,seems a curious , unprovable and unhelpful affirmation of the significance of Jerusalem to Muslims.

Barney2.0 · Sep 9, 2019

Yytz6 said:
Can you quote or link any sources? To the hadiths about opening of doors and to ibn kathir's view? Why are you so sure there was nothing more left there than that? Is it based on some historical evidence?

The sources which back my assertions can be seen on the link I gave you to answering Islam.com which quotes tafsir and other historical sources to back its argument.

Barney2.0 · Sep 9, 2019

Limo said:
What is your reference for naming this area as Paran ?
What is your sources that make you sure that there was no building in mountain temple location?

Because Hagar left Abraham’s dwelling in Beersheba and left to its wilderness as can be seen in Genesis 21, and Beersheba is in modern day Israel not Saudi Arabia. My source that tells me that there was no temple of major importance in Beersheba is the absence of it in any sources. Mecca and the Kaaba themselves are absent from any historical classical record the, Kaaba itself was built by Qusayy Ibn Kilab Mohammed’s ancestor to be used as a pagan shrine full of idols not a house of monotheistic worship.

Limo · Sep 9, 2019

Al Masihi said:
Because Hagar left Abraham’s dwelling in Beersheba and left to its wilderness as can be seen in Genesis 21, and Beersheba is in modern day Israel not Saudi Arabia. My sources that there was no temple of major importance in Beersheba is the absence of it in any sources. Mecca and the Kaaba themselves are absent from any historical classical record the, Kaaba itself was built by Qusayy Ibn Kilab Mohammed’s ancestor to be used as a pagan shrine full of idols not a house of monotheistic worship.

No reference, No sense, no science

Islam_mulia · Nov 4, 2019

Glory to Him Who carried His beloved by night from the Sacred Masjid to the Furthest Masjid, whose precincts We have blessed, to show him of Our wonders! He it is Who is All-Hearing, All-Seeing: Quran 17:1

The Sacred Masjid, Masjidil Haram, as a building, was not built when the surah was revealed. Similarly, the Furthest Mosque, Masjidil Aqsa, was not referring to a building, a mosque.
Hence, the word masjid may refer to a place of worship, not necessarily a building.

mindlight · Nov 4, 2019

Islam_mulia said:
Glory to Him Who carried His beloved by night from the Sacred Masjid to the Furthest Masjid, whose precincts We have blessed, to show him of Our wonders! He it is Who is All-Hearing, All-Seeing: Quran 17:1

The Sacred Masjid, Masjidil Haram, as a building, was not built when the surah was revealed. Similarly, the Furthest Mosque, Masjidil Aqsa, was not referring to a building, a mosque.
Hence, the word masjid may refer to a place of worship, not necessarily a building.

So what doors was Muhammad referring to if it was not a literal building. Fact is there was no building, the place was a rubbish dump at the time.

Islam_mulia · Nov 4, 2019

mindlight said:
So what doors was Muhammad referring to if it was not a literal building. Fact is there was no building, the place was a rubbish dump at the time.

The reference to the 'doors' of the masjid might not have been from a hadith. Even then, it was a Miraculous Night Journey and God showed Muhammad (pbuh) many things during his stop at Baiytul Maqdis.

Barney2.0 · Nov 6, 2019

Islam_mulia said:
Glory to Him Who carried His beloved by night from the Sacred Masjid to the Furthest Masjid, whose precincts We have blessed, to show him of Our wonders! He it is Who is All-Hearing, All-Seeing: Quran 17:1

The Sacred Masjid, Masjidil Haram, as a building, was not built when the surah was revealed. Similarly, the Furthest Mosque, Masjidil Aqsa, was not referring to a building, a mosque.
Hence, the word masjid may refer to a place of worship, not necessarily a building.

There’s just one problem with that interpretation, it’s the Hadiths hat describe the mosque as having doors and being a physical and active building at the time of Mohammed’s supposed visit:

Some of them (narrators) said: The Prophet, may Allah bless him, had disappeared that night, so the members of family of 'Abd al-Muttalib went out to search him. Al-'Abbas went to Dhu Tuwa and began to shout: O Muhammad! O Muhammad! The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, said: I am here. He said: O my brother's son! You have worried the people since the (beginning of the) night, where had you been? He said: I am coming from Bayt al-Muqaddas. He said: In one night? He said: Yes. He said: Did you experience anything which was not good? He said: I did not experience anything but good. Umm Hani said: He was taken on this journey from our house. He slept that night with us; he offered al-'Isha prayers, and then he slept. When it was pre-dawn we awoke him (to offer) morning (prayers). He got up and when he offered morning prayers he said: O Umm Hani! I offered al'Isha prayers with you as you witnessed, then I reached Bayt Al-Muqaddas and offered prayers there; then I offered morning prayers before you. After this he got up to go out; I said to him: Do not relate this to the people because they will belie you and harm you. He said: By Allah I shall relate to them and inform them. They wondered at it and said: We have never heard a thing like this. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, said to Gabriel; O Gabriel! my people will not confirm it. He said: Abu Bakr will testify to it; and he is al-Siddiq. The narrator added: Many people who had embraced Islam and offered prayers went astray. (The Prophet continued,) I stood at al-Hijr, visualised Bayt al-Muqaddas and described its signs. Some of them said: HOW MANY DOORS ARE THERE IN THAT MOSQUE? I HAD NOT COUNTED THEM SO I BEGAN TO LOOK AT IT AND COUNTED THEM ONE BY ONE AND GAVE THEM INFORMATION CONCERNING THEM. I also gave information about their caravan which was on the way and its signs. They found them as I had related. Allah, the Almighty, the Great, revealed: "We appointed the vision which We showed thee as an ordeal for mankind". He (Ibn Sa'd) said: It refers to the vision of the eye which he saw with the eye. (pp. 246-248; bold and capital emphasis ours).

You can find more information here:

Muhammad's Alleged Night Journey to the Jerusalem Temple

Islam_mulia · Nov 6, 2019

That's the Majesty, the grandness of the Night Journey (al-israk). It goes beyond the narrow confines of breaking physical barriers and transcends into the divine spectrum. Muhammad (pbuh) was given the opportunity to see beyond the normal physical constraints.
The Prophet travelled from Masjid al-haram (the building not constructed at that time) to Masjidil aqsa (the mosque not built at that time). What he saw (the mosque in another dimension, possibly) and experienced, were rejected by some Muslims at that time. Only those with faith stick to Muhammad (pbuh) and God.

dzheremi · Nov 7, 2019

Okay, but we don't have faith in Muhammad or Islam, soooo...

The thread can be summarized as: Muslims believe that Muhammad was taken on a miraculous spiritual and perhaps physical (depending on who you ask) journey to places that didn't exist yet, and because they didn't exist yet it proves that the words used to talk about those places didn't mean the things that they mean in every other instance.

That's your god's miracle? Changing the meaning of words for the sake of Muhammad's story? Showing Muhammad doors that didn't really exist, but are some kind of 'miracle', not-physical doors for him to count?

Wow...what a god and religion... :bow:

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