Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

BCsenior

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I think you nicely laid out the verses and others
the actual passages where it shows this is NOT hidden.
Through his incredible tact, Paul actually "somewhat hides"
his dire warnings about the possibility of BACs losing salvation!

Paul is HUGE on edification, exhortation, encouragement, etc.
and almost hidden in amongst all of this stuff ... are his dire warnings!
Almost hidden for the benefit of baby Christians, for example.

Jesus will be able to say at the judgment, "We warned you!".
Sorry, boys 'n gals, but that's the way it is.
 
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Mark Quayle

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“The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And call not upon the Lord.” Psalm 14:2–4 (KJV 1900)

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Genesis 6:5 (KJV 1900)

God, not being a respecter of persons must have arbitrarily chosen whom he would save, regardless of how evil we are.


Not arbitrary, Dave. At least, not by the usual use of the word "arbitrary" concerning decisions.

God has specific ones of us in mind for his own purposes --not even ours, primarily. I'm of the opinion (which I don't claim to be able to prove) that the elect are in fact the Bride who is in fact THE New Jerusalem. He is not constructing with random avaoilable materials. It is his way to make each purpose different from all others, and to use the ones he made for the purpose --not because they were more suited, but because of his mercy and grace, making them suited for the purpose.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The purpose of this thread is to show that people do NOT
have free will to choose to believe in Jesus and His gospel.
Before the foundation of the world …
God saw who people really are, and He chose some, but not others!
(The chosen ones get to choose later whether they will co-operate with the Holy Spirit.)


God knows peoples’ hearts, thoughts, motives, etc.
“… the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive
behind the thoughts” (1 Chronicles 28:9)
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23)

Let’s include this: “I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth.
All who love the truth recognize what I say is true” (Jesus, John 18:37)


God knows the type of people He wants to spend eternity with
HUMBLE: “I dwell in the high and holy place with him
who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6)
“You will save the humble people” (2 Samuel 22:28)
REPENTANT:
A repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary (many verses).
POOR: The poor (in various ways) are the most likely group to have the right heart attitude.

“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)


Father God gives His chosen ones to Jesus
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
“everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” (John 6:45)
“no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
“My Father who has given them to Me …” (John 10:29)


Father God’s chosen people are enabled to believe in Jesus
“… that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16)
These have been “enabled” to believe!
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
These have NOT been “enabled” to believe!

The kingdom of God consists of His chosen ones and Satan’s infiltrators
Jesus sows good seed (wheat, the sons of the kingdom) in the world,
while Satan sows tares/weeds in the world.
Both wheat and tares grow together until the harvest.
Then the wheat will be gathered into His barn,
and the tares will be gathered and cast into the lake of fire
because they offend God and have practiced lawlessness.
(Luke 13:24-30, 13:38-43)

“Every plant which My heavenly Father has NOT planted will be uprooted.” (Matthew 15:13)

Romans 9: God has mercy on some, but not on others
Aren’t the election verses in Romans 9 consistent with all of God’s choosing above?
● “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls” (9:11)

“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (9:15)

“So then, it is … of God who shows mercy.” (9:16)
“He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” (9:18)
“Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” (9:21)

God has His reasons to make …
“vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” (9:22)
and “vessels of mercy (for His glory)” (9:23)


Some of the “election of grace” verses
“there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” (Romans 11:5)
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
… according to the good pleasure of His will” (Ephesians 1:4-6)

“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48)
“elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1)
“Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen” (2 Peter 1:10)
“salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen.” (2 Timothy 2:10)
“I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation
which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 2:10) <<< Notice that it’s NOT a done deal yet


“Men do not first choose to follow Jesus. Rather, Jesus chooses men to follow Him.
First Jesus calls. Then men are free to follow or not to follow.
But no man can follow Christ unless he has first been called.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary)

I'm hoping you stated your case poorly, and that you don't believe God makes his choice according to pre-viewing how people will be. 1. We are none of us the sort that are worth saving. 2. The view that any of us determine, whether by worth or by whatever measurement God might use, God's choice, is ludicrous on its face. God does not depend on random chance to achieve his ends. And if God is not original cause, then chance is. And logically, chance can determine nothing. 3, 4, 5 --there are many reasons that notion is wrong, Bible reasons and logic reasons.

If the Son of man shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. This is the only free will, and it is because of being subject to God's will, dependent on God himself. God in us is what makes us able to choose what is truly right. (Compliance is not obedience.)
 
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renniks

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Yes it is Biblical teachings that God not only chooses but calls.
Yes he calls even those who don't answer.
"All day long I opened my arms to a rebellious people. But they follow their own evil paths and their own crooked schemes."
(God)
 
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renniks

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If the Son of man shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. This is the only free will, and it is because of being subject to God's will, dependent on God himself. God in us is what makes us able to choose what is truly right. (Compliance is not obedience.)
" Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?… Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord GOD. Turn, then, and live. "(Ezek. 18:5,9, 20, 23, 31-32).
 
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redleghunter

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Yes he calls even those who don't answer.
"All day long I opened my arms to a rebellious people. But they follow their own evil paths and their own crooked schemes."
(God)
Yes some have ears to hear and some don’t.
 
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Mark Quayle

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" Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?… Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord GOD. Turn, then, and live. "(Ezek. 18:5,9, 20, 23, 31-32).
Not sure I get what your point here. Why do you respond to what I said with this?
 
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renniks

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Yes some have ears to hear and some don’t.
SO, God holds his arms out to people he has rendered unable to respond? ;)
" Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
( Jesus)
 
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redleghunter

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SO, God holds his arms out to people he has rendered unable to respond? ;)
" Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
( Jesus)
Which would mean Jesus was not a Universalist.
 
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BCsenior

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I'm hoping you stated your case poorly, and that you don't believe
God makes his choice according to pre-viewing how people will be.
Aaaaah, guess what ... we have another News Flash coming ... and here it is ...

God desires to save some humans ... and have them in heaven with Them!

So, how do They decide which ones? ... My take on it is in the OP.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If you don't get it, you aren't trying.
Oh, boy. One of those. So you either want me to guess, or don't want to discuss, but to pontificate?

The fact God gains no pleasure in the death of the wicked fits perfectly with Reformed Theology, and I hope you have patience enough to find how. To your mind, I'm guessing, it does not.

Notice, for starters, that he is Sovereign Lord, "LORD God" in your quote. Next, notice the context --he is telling Israel to repent, not making a general statement concerning all of humanity. 3rd, whether you like it intellectually or not, God may find parts of his plan distasteful --not only can he not look upon sin, yet he designed this life to include it, but more than this he never found joy in being separated from his son, nor for his son to die as sin in our place. The "joy set before him" (yes, I know, that refers to Christ, but the same could be said for the Father), was the result of his plan coming to fulfillment.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Aaaaah, guess what ... we have another News Flash coming ... and here it is ...

God desires to save some humans ... and have them in heaven with Them!

So, how do They decide which ones? ... My take on it is in the OP.

Who is "They" you refer to? God?

God not only desires to save some --he has saved them --and that, from the foundation of the world. We don't see it as such, as yet, but it is already a done deal, long before we were born. Chance logically has no say, yet if you can't see God as having done it, your only option is chance did it.
 
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St_Worm2

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Paul "somewhat hides" his dire warnings about the possibility of BACs losing salvation! ...hidden for the benefit of baby Christians, for example.

Jesus will be able to say at the judgment, "We warned you!".
Sorry, boys 'n gals, but that's the way it is.
Hi BCsenior, if that's true, was Jesus simply mistaken when He told us/made promises to us like these?

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and ... of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give ~eternal~ life to them, and they will ~never~ perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Or are you saying that He will change His mind and go back on the promises that He made to us (His "sheep"/His "BACs") sometime in the future :eek:

Thanks!

--David

John 5
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

.
 
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Steven Beck

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Reformed doctrine clings to Holy Scriptures. That whole Sola Scriptura deal.

Really. So why do you leave out scripture like

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

This is straight scripture no twists and turns. Meanwhile you guys find a verse then twist it to suit your doctrine. I would reconsider your supposed "Sola Scriptura".
 
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Steven Beck

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Who is "They" you refer to? God?

God not only desires to save some --he has saved them --and that, from the foundation of the world. We don't see it as such, as yet, but it is already a done deal, long before we were born. Chance logically has no say, yet if you can't see God as having done it, your only option is chance did it.

Sorry but He didn't save anyone from the "foundation of the world". Eph 1:4 does not say anything like that.
 
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redleghunter

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Really. So why do you leave out scripture like

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

This is straight scripture no twists and turns. Meanwhile you guys find a verse then twist it to suit your doctrine. I would reconsider your supposed "Sola Scriptura".
What do those verses have to do with the subject?
 
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redleghunter

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Sorry but He didn't save anyone from the "foundation of the world". Eph 1:4 does not say anything like that.
Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8which He lavished on us.
 
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Strong in Him

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Can God fail? Then things are just as he wanted.

God WANTED all this sin and evil in the world??
He WANTED those he created in his image to wound, disable and kill one another, while rejecting him; the One who made them?
No.
 
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Steven Beck

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Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8which He lavished on us.

Sorry I don't see saved or salvation there and you are missing a small point. IN HIM. We need to be IN JESUS and Paul is speaking to already saved people who are IN HIM. God the Father made a pact with Jesus the Son that anyone who repents and follows Jesus will be seen a HOLY AND BLAMELESS and He made that pact before starting the universe as we know it.

Verse 5. God the Father also made a pact that these same people will be made adopted sons and daughters NOT servants. This is the predestined bit. It is NOT about you or me as an individuals but a deal the Father and Son cut before they started project man.
 
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