Predestination v free will compromise?

Albion · Nov 3, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
Ok so the distinct response I'm seeing thus far, and the one I fully expected is the "we all deserve to die so just saving some shows God's merciful" response.

Ok, that's fair.

But the basic idea of predestination is (at least according to Calvin):

God chooses who gets saved, and all others are damned without ever having hope for salvation.

Am I right?

It's probable that if this question were put to the Calvinist/Reformed forum here on CF, the responses would be more helpful. That said, my understanding is that there are several different slants on the subject of predestination but that Calvin himself believed in what's called double predestination by which God chooses some to be saved (through being given Faith) while others are chosen to be left on their own (the practical effect of which is that they will be lost in their sins).

JLB777 · Nov 3, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason.

You should feel very uneasy about that.

It shows that you have the Spirit of Christ in you, warning you against such nonsense.

Thank God!

JLB

Kenny'sID · Nov 3, 2019

Dave L said:
How can the only 3 possibilities explaining salvation be deceptive? Do you know of a 4th possibility? Are you being deceptive suggesting these are deceptive?

A 4th??

I'll show you "how".

I was hoping to avoid all this by going directly to the source of where you got the questions, and if that was you, please explain each in details and show us who makes those claims of the way to salvation. If not, was it as I assumed, and they cam from the theologies of others, and if so, who?

My main question there was simple and only so I can try to back up what the questions claim, something I think is a very fair request/goal in such a serious matter. If it's as it appears, and you choose not to say, fine, but as I tell others in cases like this, many will think you simply cannot back up the fact those 3 questions are viable, or really exist as fully factual theologies as they stand.

If you choose to pick at the request, and not simply help me verify there are people out there with such beliefs, and that your claims in the questions are slightly twisted leaving pertinent information out (main deception) that too will be good enough for some of us to know you cannot back it up.

I have to wonder if people understand the seriousness of some of the things they post here, and what the possible results could cost people? So, personally, I think the best solution to that is to let everyone speak and then verify what is spoken...fair enough?

JLB777 · Nov 3, 2019

Hammster said:
God the Father elects us to salvation.

Can you provide a scripture for this statement?

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 3, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
fair enough?

Fair enough.

JLB

Hammster · Nov 3, 2019

JLB777 said:
Can you provide a scripture for this statement?

JLB

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
— 1 Peter 1:1-2

the last child · Nov 3, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
Ok so the distinct response I'm seeing thus far, and the one I fully expected is the "we all deserve to die so just saving some shows God's merciful" response.

Ok, that's fair.

But the basic idea of predestination is (at least according to Calvin):

God chooses who gets saved, and all others are damned without ever having hope for salvation.

Am I right?

To me a good mesh of MERCY FOR SOME "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." (Rom 8:29-30)

and MERCY FOR ALL "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Is that God predestines some, and for the vast majority of all others grants them free will to choose. Fault my logic if that makes you feel better about yourself or bible knowledge, but explain to me how God wants all people to repent but never grants them the opportunity because they weren't predestined.[/QUOTE

That’s an interesting conclusion...I wanted to point out if I may, that as the Creator, whether we like it or not, He is on a higher plane of judgement than us. In other words, because He created us and all that exists, He sets the rules and decides what gets to happen and what is “fair” or “just” or not. And according to His level of perfection, we fall extremely short, and ALL deserve hell. So even if He decided to save only one or two or NONE of us, by all rights, it would be “just” according to His level of perfection. We are not the bosses. We don’t get to set the paradigm or the rules. However, we are fortunate and blessed bc He is a merciful and good and incredibly gracious God beyond what we could ever hope for, eve as His level of justice and perfection are incredibly hopelessly beyond our reach.

Kenny'sID · Nov 3, 2019

Hammster said:
You said what we are to do. But you didn’t answer how you know that you are acting right enough.

I apologize, I was certain I was clear. I know I'm acting right enough when I do those things the father requires of us.

Another question to add to my prior one, does that common question (tactic as I call it) really stump people into giving in and admitting sin must be ok at least when it comes to getting to heaven because we can't get it down to exactly "enough", or do everything absolutely perfect? if so, I got good news for them, and you too if you will accept it.

Next time the the question is posed tell the speaker, even if we don't do things exactly right, as long as we are sincere and do the best we can, God has provided a way to salvation, and that would be forgiveness through the blood of Christ. Jesus suffered for those sins we have committed and if we ask him/repent, any we commit after we are saved. Also tell them that not doing exactly right, perfectly to the tee, is no excuse to throw our arms up and assume we don't have to be concerned about sin keeping us out of heaven, that's decptive backwards thinking that makes no logical sense at all to me. However it makes perfect sense to some who like the convenience of perpetual sin not keeping us from heaven...what fun that could be. Almost sounds like something the devil might try to deceive us into going ahead ans sinning with.

In order to make this a proper debate we both need to answer the questions posed us, otherwise things get a bit lopsided, so if you would, please...

the last child · Nov 3, 2019

JLB777 said:
You should feel very uneasy about that.

It shows that you have the Spirit of Christ in you, warning you against such nonsense.

Thank God!

JLB

I suspect that people will stick with their beliefs and not much will be resolved here. But it is an interesting mesh of opinions. Added to the dilemma is that people often struggle to properly articulate exactly what they mean, and sometimes that adds or subtracts from the original intent of the text they wrote.

When I was studying in my master’s program for Biblical studies, one of my professors presented an interesting conjecture on this topic that a well known writer and scholar had theorized. His idea was that perhaps God, looking through space and time, at all the possible “versions” and scenarios of each of our lives, looked for the one that was the most likely to accept His plan of salvation, and chose those people, and because there are many people who, regardless of any circumstance or scenario would never turn to God or accept His plan of salvation, God put those people in places on earth where they would never hear about Christ or the gospel. And the people whom He knew would choose Him, He put in places He knew they would have access or opportunities to hear about Him. And that was how He answered some of the questions regarding “what about the multitudes that never hear about Him” etc.

the last child · Nov 3, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I apologize, I was certain I was clear. I know I'm acting right enough when I do those things the father requires of us.

Another question to add to my prior one, does that common question (tactic as I call it) really stump people into giving in and admitting sin must be ok at least when it comes to getting to heaven because we can't get it down to exactly "enough", or do everything absolutely perfect? if so, I got good news for them, and you too if you will accept it.

Next time the the question is posed tell the speaker, even if we don't do things exactly right, as long as we are sincere and do the best we can, God has provided a way to salvation, and that would be forgiveness through the blood of Christ. Jesus suffered for those sins we have committed and if we ask him/repent, any we commit after we are saved. Also tell them that not doing exactly right, perfectly to the tee, is no excuse to throw our arms up and assume we don't have to be concerned about sin keeping us out of heaven, that's decptive backwards thinking that makes no logical sense at all to me. However it makes perfect sense to some who like the convenience of perpetual sin not keeping us from heaven...what fun that could be. Almost sounds like something the devil might try to deceive us into going ahead ans sinning with.

In order to make this a proper debate we both need to answer the questions posed us, otherwise things get a bit lopsided, so if you would, please...

So wait, you are proposing then, good works + Christ = salvation

JLB777 · Nov 3, 2019

Hammster said:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
— 1 Peter 1:1-2

This certainly does not say God the Father predestined these to salvation.

Actually, quite the opposite if you keep reading the context.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:1-9

Peter plainly teaches that if your faith being tested under the fire of persecution shows to be genuine, to the praise, honor and glory of Jesus Christ, then you will receive the salvation of your soul, at the end of your faith.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

JLB

Kenny'sID · Nov 3, 2019

the last child said:
So wait, you are proposing then, good works + Christ = salvation

The following speaker is none other than Christ proposing just that.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

That said, are you saying you disagree with Christ? Did you know Christ, in whom we are to believe in is our example of doing good? He didn't just tell us, he showed us what to do, and told us what would happen if we chose not to do do good.

Do you think we can say we believe in Christ if we do not obey him and heed his warnings? I don't see how that can be possible.

JLB777 · Nov 3, 2019

the last child said:
So wait, you are proposing then, good works + Christ = salvation

Are you referring to salvation as in being born again, or are you referring to receiving the salvation of your soul at the end of your faith?

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 3, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Do you think we can say we believe in Christ if we do not obey him and heed his warnings? I don't see how that can be possible.

Amen!

His student · Nov 3, 2019

Dave L said:
How can the only 3 possibilities explaining salvation be deceptive? Do you know of a 4th possibility? .......

Sure - the 4th would be God helps some to help themselves in salvation.

God opens the eyes of some (like Lydia for instance) and they understand and respond positively to the gospel.

The fact that He does not do that for every human who hears the gospel requires what the Bible calls election in order to determine who will receive the inward call and thus respond and be justified as per the Romans 8 chain of salvation.

Whether election is always made completely without a condition involved (like the prayers of a mother for a son for instance) is a question I answer with a big resounding NO.

Other wise - why pray for the salvation of a loved one?

Dave L · Nov 3, 2019

His student said:
Sure - the 4th would be God helps some to help themselves in salvation.

God opens the eyes of some (like Lydia for instance) and they understand and respond positively to the gospel.

The fact that He does not do that for every human who hears the gospel requires what the Bible calls election in order to determine who will receive the inward call and thus respond and be justified as per the Romans 8 chain of salvation.

Whether election is always made completely without a condition involved (like the prayers of a mother for a son for instance) is a question I answer with a big resounding NO.

Other wise - why pray for the salvation of a loved one?

That's #2. Already accounted for.

aiki · Nov 3, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

See Provisionalism (aka Traditionalism) or Molinism.

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.org (search "Molinism")

sdowney717 · Nov 3, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
Ok so the distinct response I'm seeing thus far, and the one I fully expected is the "we all deserve to die so just saving some shows God's merciful" response.

Ok, that's fair.

But the basic idea of predestination is (at least according to Calvin):

God chooses who gets saved, and all others are damned without ever having hope for salvation.

Am I right?

To me a good mesh of MERCY FOR SOME "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." (Rom 8:29-30)

and MERCY FOR ALL "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Is that God predestines some, and for the vast majority of all others grants them free will to choose. Fault my logic if that makes you feel better about yourself or bible knowledge, but explain to me how God wants all people to repent but never grants them the opportunity because they weren't predestined.

Your reading 2 Peter 3:9 as if that is for all people God is waiting patiently for them to repent.
However, Peter earlier in the same chapter mentions the wicked.
These others that God desires to save, are not the wicked found in the earlier part of the chapter, these ones God is waiting patiently for are His beloved foreknown to Him elect whom He knows will believe the message at some future point in their life, because He is at work in them.

God's promise is that He will destroy the wicked. and He will save the just, as He is just and justifier of those who have faith in Christ. There is no promise of patient waiting towards the wicked whom He knows will never believe in Christ, as He also knows He is not the author and finisher of their faith as faith in Christ is a gift, and unless He reveals Himself to them and makes in them a new heart that can know Him, they will never repent and believe in the gospel.

2 Peter 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Promise Is Not Slack
3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition (going to hell as His judgement of them ) of ungodly men.

Silverback · Nov 3, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

All of humanity is guilty before God, and cannot choose to believe in, love, or, seek God...nor have the desire to do so. Our nature is sinful, depraved, and we are ALL worthy of God's wrath, and punishment...This is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. People have to grasp this before UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION will make sense.

Before the foundation of the world, God chose those he would bring to salvation, by his grace, through faith in his Son. This choice was not made because there was anything special, or, different in the person, nor did God look through the tunnel of time, and see who was going to believe, and then predestined them, nor was it a type of military muster where every third person was chosen...This is UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

Those predestined had their names written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

All of humanity is depraved, and justly deserving of God's wrath, punishment, and condemnation. Although, we are all guilty before a holy and just God he has chosen to have mercy on some, others, he has passed by and they receive justice, but no one receives injustice

As to your hybrid theory, I don't remember reading anything in scripture to support it.

Hammster · Nov 3, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I apologize, I was certain I was clear. I know I'm acting right enough when I do those things the father requires of us.

So one or two good things is enough. Got it. Is that every day? Or just once?

Predestination v free will compromise?

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