Jesus is Israel. How so?

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In Hosea
8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said:
“Call his name Lo-Ammi,[fn]
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.
“Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’[fn]
There it shall be said to them,
You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Do you know that Jezreel is also the same as the valley of Meggido? Ezekiel 36-40 you might want to read as the LORD speaks to the mountains of Israel and says he is bringing them back form all the nations where they have been scattered and that He will remove the reproach of all the nations in that day and that Israel will no longer bereave the other nations. God notes that He did not bring Israel back for their sakes but for His names sake and notes that Israel has profaned the name of the LORD in all the nations where they were scattered and that in that day God will give them a new heart and they will know that He is the LORD.

The 2nd coming and kingdom age are clearly see as transitioning in Zech 14 where the LORD comes with all his saints when Jerusalem is being overrun and He saves Israel and melts the enemies and is king over all the earth. The MT of Olives is to split in two and a new river and valley forms that day. It says in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel seeing Jesus and confessing Him as LORD. If you think about this great deliverance it is exactly like Luke 1 predicted Jesus would do.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

One last reference that ties this transition together. In Isaiah 61 Jesus took the scroll and read the portion proclaimed good news and the acceptable year of the LORD. Jesus said this day this has been fulfilled in your hearing. Jesus stopped mid sentence and this same person who proclaims the acceptable year of the LORD also brings in the day of vengeance of God. Look at all the Zion Specifics in this day of vengeance and think it over.

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
Ezekiel 36-40 = Revelation 20

houses in peace with no walls = millennium
gog and magog attack afterwards
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Revelation says 1260 days = 3.5 years = half of final 7 years of Daniel

Jewish War lasted 7 years (66-73 AD) and half way through the temple and city were desolated as Daniel was shown

There are three primary precedents in Scripture that show the day-year principle: ("Seventh-day Adventists Believe - An Exposition of the Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 2nd edition". Ministerial Association, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. 2005: 48.)

  1. Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.
  2. Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.
  3. Daniel 9:24-27. This is known as the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks. Read about the 70-week prophecy here. The majority of scholars do understand the passage to refer to 70 "sevens" or "septets" of years—that is, a total of 490 years.

The day-year principle specifically applies to prophecy:

Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, and Bishop Thomas Newton as exponents of this school.


This day-year principle specifically applies to prophecy and is used for prophetic interpretation of "days" in prophecies. For example, historicist interpreters have usually understood the "time, times and half a time", "1,260 days" and "42 months" mentioned in Daniel and Revelation to be references to represent a period of 1260 years.

These time periods occur seven times in scripture:

  • Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
  • Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
  • Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
  • Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
  • Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
  • Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
  • Revelation 13:5, "42 months".
Historicists usually believe the "1,260 days" spanned the Middle Ages and concluded within the early modern or modern era. Although many dates have been proposed for the start and finish of the "1,260 days", certain time spans have proven to be more popular than others.

We, like the earlier Bible students of the Reformation and post-Reformation eras, understand the 1260 "days" to be the period from AD 538 to 1798 when the papacy ruled in Rome. This 1260-year-period began with the defeat of the Ostrogoths by the general Belisarius and ended with the successes of Napoleon of France; specifically, the capture of Pope Pius VI by general Louis Alexandre Berthier in 1798.

Erick said
"Revelation says 1260 days = 3.5 years = half of final 7 years of Daniel"

Please support this statement of yours from scripture

The Day-Year Principle - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So you prefer the definition from those who reject Jesus Christ as Messiah?
Moses (who wrote the Genesis passage) Rejected Christ?
 
Upvote 0

Nige55

Newbie
Mar 2, 2012
801
222
✟68,732.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you prefer the definition from those who reject Jesus Christ as Messiah?



JLB

You mean definitions from those who were first given the gospel ? Definitions from the same people who were Jesus disciples ?
Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
 
Upvote 0

Nige55

Newbie
Mar 2, 2012
801
222
✟68,732.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Scripture says Jesus is Israel in several places. I presented a couple of them. So your argument is with Matthew and Paul, not with me.

I don't have an argument with them, as I don't believe they're saying what you claim they are.
Let's take Matthew, from your OP -
"Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)


As I posted earlier, I have no issue with the wording as we see throughout scripture God refer to Israel and it's people in both parental and protective terms. I see the examples where both Israel and Jesus are referred to by the name Jesus and yet I'm not attempting to claim that scripture only refers to ONE of them. It simply doesn't. It doesn't because taking such an approach can never explain how much of scripture could be referring to Jesus and not Israel/ the Jews. How can Jesus make himself jealous of salvation through himself to the gentiles, in order to save himself ? And that's just the start !
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't have an argument with them, as I don't believe they're saying what you claim they are.
Let's take Matthew, from your OP -
"Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)


As I posted earlier, I have no issue with the wording as we see throughout scripture God refer to Israel and it's people in both parental and protective terms. I see the examples where both Israel and Jesus are referred to by the name Jesus and yet I'm not attempting to claim that scripture only refers to ONE of them. It simply doesn't. It doesn't because taking such an approach can never explain how much of scripture could be referring to Jesus and not Israel/ the Jews. How can Jesus make himself jealous of salvation through himself to the gentiles, in order to save himself ? And that's just the start !
It comes down to God having only one people...believers in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And this seems to be the core of contention, what you're referring to are current believers in Christ. I'm a part of his people, but I wasn't always a believer.
And this seems to be the core of contention, what you're referring to are current believers in Christ. I'm a part of his people, but I wasn't always a believer.
Believers since Abel in the garden of Eden.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums