Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

Woke

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Where does the Bible teach this is how God chooses?

The entire Bible teaches it is the choice of the individual that determines his/her salvation. Where do I start? So many scriptures teach this, but just a few are needed to make that point.

1. John 3:18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

2. Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat of any tree in the garden?’”
2The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’”

3. Deuteronomy 30: 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. So choose life, so that you and your descendants may live, 20and that you may love the LORD your God, obey Him, and hold fast to Him. For He is your life, and He will prolong your life in the land that the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”…


Where does the Bible teach this is how God chooses?

The Bible also teaches God sees our futures and knows who will choose to follow him in advance of them doing so. Because God has seen it before it happens for people to know. And God knows who satisfactorily does the job of ruling over this Earth with Christ, because he has seen that also. Before we were born God knew his elect because of that. That's why he chose us. SEE THESE SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK TO THIS POINT. THE IDEA THAT GOD SEES OUR FUTURES & CHOOSES CERTAIN HUMANS FOR CERTAIN JOBS BECAUSE OF THAT. There is not any assignment that God gives to humans that is more important to him than ruling over this Earth as one of Christ's elect.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139: 16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

17How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!

18If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You.

In addition to these few scriptures, consider prophecy. In many, maybe even in most of the prophecies, God was describing what WILL happen because he HAD seen it before it did happen. In those prophecies God was not describing events that only occur because he manipulates events to make those things happen. The betrayal of Christ by Judas I cite as just one such prophecy.
 
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Guojing

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The purpose of this thread is to show that people do NOT
have free will to choose to believe in Jesus and His gospel.
Before the foundation of the world …
God saw who people really are, and He chose some, but not others!
(The chosen ones get to choose later whether they will co-operate with the Holy Spirit.)


God knows peoples’ hearts, thoughts, motives, etc.
“… the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive
behind the thoughts” (1 Chronicles 28:9)
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23)

Let’s include this: “I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth.
All who love the truth recognize what I say is true” (Jesus, John 18:37)


God knows the type of people He wants to spend eternity with
HUMBLE: “I dwell in the high and holy place with him
who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6)
“You will save the humble people” (2 Samuel 22:28)
REPENTANT:
A repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary (many verses).
POOR: The poor (in various ways) are the most likely group to have the right heart attitude.

“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)


Father God gives His chosen ones to Jesus
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
“everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” (John 6:45)
“no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
“My Father who has given them to Me …” (John 10:29)


Father God’s chosen people are enabled to believe in Jesus
“… that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16)
These have been “enabled” to believe!
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
These have NOT been “enabled” to believe!

The kingdom of God consists of His chosen ones and Satan’s infiltrators
Jesus sows good seed (wheat, the sons of the kingdom) in the world,
while Satan sows tares/weeds in the world.
Both wheat and tares grow together until the harvest.
Then the wheat will be gathered into His barn,
and the tares will be gathered and cast into the lake of fire
because they offend God and have practiced lawlessness.
(Luke 13:24-30, 13:38-43)

“Every plant which My heavenly Father has NOT planted will be uprooted.” (Matthew 15:13)

Romans 9: God has mercy on some, but not on others
Aren’t the election verses in Romans 9 consistent with all of God’s choosing above?
● “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls” (9:11)

“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (9:15)

“So then, it is … of God who shows mercy.” (9:16)
“He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” (9:18)
“Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” (9:21)

God has His reasons to make …
“vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” (9:22)
and “vessels of mercy (for His glory)” (9:23)


Some of the “election of grace” verses
“there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” (Romans 11:5)
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
… according to the good pleasure of His will” (Ephesians 1:4-6)

“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48)
“elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1)
“Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen” (2 Peter 1:10)
“salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen.” (2 Timothy 2:10)
“I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation
which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 2:10) <<< Notice that it’s NOT a done deal yet


“Men do not first choose to follow Jesus. Rather, Jesus chooses men to follow Him.
First Jesus calls. Then men are free to follow or not to follow.
But no man can follow Christ unless he has first been called.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary)

You are a TULIP believer?
 
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dqhall

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The purpose of this thread is to show that people do NOT
have free will to choose to believe in Jesus and His gospel.
Before the foundation of the world …
God saw who people really are, and He chose some, but not others!
(The chosen ones get to choose later whether they will co-operate with the Holy Spirit.)


God knows peoples’ hearts, thoughts, motives, etc.
“… the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive
behind the thoughts” (1 Chronicles 28:9)
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23)

Let’s include this: “I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth.
All who love the truth recognize what I say is true” (Jesus, John 18:37)


God knows the type of people He wants to spend eternity with
HUMBLE: “I dwell in the high and holy place with him
who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6)
“You will save the humble people” (2 Samuel 22:28)
REPENTANT:
A repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary (many verses).
POOR: The poor (in various ways) are the most likely group to have the right heart attitude.

“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)


Father God gives His chosen ones to Jesus
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
“everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” (John 6:45)
“no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
“My Father who has given them to Me …” (John 10:29)


Father God’s chosen people are enabled to believe in Jesus
“… that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16)
These have been “enabled” to believe!
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
These have NOT been “enabled” to believe!

The kingdom of God consists of His chosen ones and Satan’s infiltrators
Jesus sows good seed (wheat, the sons of the kingdom) in the world,
while Satan sows tares/weeds in the world.
Both wheat and tares grow together until the harvest.
Then the wheat will be gathered into His barn,
and the tares will be gathered and cast into the lake of fire
because they offend God and have practiced lawlessness.
(Luke 13:24-30, 13:38-43)

“Every plant which My heavenly Father has NOT planted will be uprooted.” (Matthew 15:13)

Romans 9: God has mercy on some, but not on others
Aren’t the election verses in Romans 9 consistent with all of God’s choosing above?
● “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls” (9:11)

“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (9:15)

“So then, it is … of God who shows mercy.” (9:16)
“He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” (9:18)
“Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” (9:21)

God has His reasons to make …
“vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” (9:22)
and “vessels of mercy (for His glory)” (9:23)


Some of the “election of grace” verses
“there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” (Romans 11:5)
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
… according to the good pleasure of His will” (Ephesians 1:4-6)

“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48)
“elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1)
“Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen” (2 Peter 1:10)
“salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen.” (2 Timothy 2:10)
“I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation
which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 2:10) <<< Notice that it’s NOT a done deal yet


“Men do not first choose to follow Jesus. Rather, Jesus chooses men to follow Him.
First Jesus calls. Then men are free to follow or not to follow.
But no man can follow Christ unless he has first been called.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary)
I saw the phrase, “Before the foundation of the world...” When was this? Surely the disciples were not alive that day.

I know human works fall short of the glory of God. God’s works save. “Unless the Lord builds the house, the workers work in vain.” Psalm 127

Bad works will not last, but a brick house can not be built without people doing work. Jesus was also a carpenter.
 
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renniks

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Please try to understand what I have written.

All humans have free will re: most things.
But, non-believers are NOT able to understand spiritual things.
Because of the reasons I have already given.
E.G. If you are blind, you cannot see!

BTW, several people I trust have told me that ...
they have really sincerely tried to believe, but they just cannot.
How does this fit in with your theories?
True and false. True, no one can believe without God enlightening them, but God gives everyone enough light to enable them to seek and find him. A non-believer will at some point, probably many points be spoken to be the Spirit and have the opportunity to respond. Some call this prevanient grace.
 
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Woke

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John 6:64 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him."

John 13:11 "For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean."

Christ knew because he saw it before it happened for humans to see, as he and his Father also live in our futures. That's why they prophesied about the 30 pieces of silver, why Christ knew exactly when the time for his death had come, and everything else surrounding his Earthly life. Why just one of his apostles would betray him.
 
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redleghunter

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The entire Bible teaches it is the choice of the individual that determines his/her salvation.
Indeed some do choose but do not choose first. That is really what the Bible teaches.
 
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redleghunter

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Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139: 16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
These verses make it clear God is Sovereign and chooses first. God also loved us first. That is what the Bible teaches.
 
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redleghunter

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In addition to these few scriptures, consider prophecy. In many, maybe even in most of the prophecies, God was describing what WILL happen because he HAD seen it before it did happen. In those prophecies God was not describing events that only occur because he manipulates events to make those things happen. The betrayal of Christ by Judas I cite as just one such prophecy.
You are actually making a case for God choosing us before we do anything. Of course God is omnipresent, omnipotent and what you are referring to omniscient. But the leap you make is that because God can see the future He decides who is saved by seeing if we accept Him. The Foreknowledge of Faith is not presented in Holy Scriptures. God chooses His elect according to His will and purpose. That is what is actually taught in Scriptures.
 
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SkyWriting

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The purpose of this thread is to show that people do NOT have free will to choose to believe in Jesus and His gospel.

God knows what our free will choice will be.
Our future is part of God's memory.
There ya go. Mystery solved.
 
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redleghunter

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God knows what our free will choice will be.
Our future is part of God's memory.
There ya go.
I must have missed the doctrine of sovereign mankind. I guess there is one. It’s called sin and death.
 
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Steven Beck

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The purpose of this thread is to show that people do NOT
have free will to choose to believe in Jesus and His gospel.
Before the foundation of the world …
God saw who people really are, and He chose some, but not others!
(The chosen ones get to choose later whether they will co-operate with the Holy Spirit.)


God knows peoples’ hearts, thoughts, motives, etc.
“… the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive
behind the thoughts” (1 Chronicles 28:9)
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23)

Let’s include this: “I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth.
All who love the truth recognize what I say is true” (Jesus, John 18:37)


God knows the type of people He wants to spend eternity with
HUMBLE: “I dwell in the high and holy place with him
who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6)
“You will save the humble people” (2 Samuel 22:28)
REPENTANT:
A repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary (many verses).
POOR: The poor (in various ways) are the most likely group to have the right heart attitude.

“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)


Father God gives His chosen ones to Jesus
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
“everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” (John 6:45)
“no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
“My Father who has given them to Me …” (John 10:29)


Father God’s chosen people are enabled to believe in Jesus
“… that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16)
These have been “enabled” to believe!
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
These have NOT been “enabled” to believe!

The kingdom of God consists of His chosen ones and Satan’s infiltrators
Jesus sows good seed (wheat, the sons of the kingdom) in the world,
while Satan sows tares/weeds in the world.
Both wheat and tares grow together until the harvest.
Then the wheat will be gathered into His barn,
and the tares will be gathered and cast into the lake of fire
because they offend God and have practiced lawlessness.
(Luke 13:24-30, 13:38-43)

“Every plant which My heavenly Father has NOT planted will be uprooted.” (Matthew 15:13)

Romans 9: God has mercy on some, but not on others
Aren’t the election verses in Romans 9 consistent with all of God’s choosing above?
● “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls” (9:11)

“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (9:15)

“So then, it is … of God who shows mercy.” (9:16)
“He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” (9:18)
“Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” (9:21)

God has His reasons to make …
“vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” (9:22)
and “vessels of mercy (for His glory)” (9:23)


Some of the “election of grace” verses
“there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” (Romans 11:5)
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
… according to the good pleasure of His will” (Ephesians 1:4-6)

“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48)
“elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1)
“Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen” (2 Peter 1:10)
“salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen.” (2 Timothy 2:10)
“I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation
which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 2:10) <<< Notice that it’s NOT a done deal yet


“Men do not first choose to follow Jesus. Rather, Jesus chooses men to follow Him.
First Jesus calls. Then men are free to follow or not to follow.
But no man can follow Christ unless he has first been called.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary)

All the stuff that shows the poster does not understand God or man or the angels or the world we live in. Does God want robots or people who choose to love and obey Him? If God wants robots then He can play computer games.

Lucifer was God's head angel. He lived in glory and yet this guy had the FREE WILL to rebel against his creator. He even managed to take 1/3rd of the angels to follow him.

When man was created it was the same deal. God does not want robots and people have been given the capacity to choose to follow or reject God.

This is where people misunderstand the bible in election and choice. What did God choose Abraham to be? Saved? Nope. He elected him to be the father of a new people. That is an earthly position and has no relationship with his spiritual position. Abraham was already righteous in God's eyes. Why are the Jews called the elect? Because they are children of Abraham. Are all Jews saved? no of course not but they are still the elect. Don't like it? Deal with it.

Cyrus was chosen to overthrow the Babylonians. Earthly position and has no relationship with spiritual position. When Jesus said "Many are called but few are chosen"is all about earthly positions.

Salvation is a condition not a position. Jesus met all the conditions to allow us to choose to be saved.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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public hermit

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The purpose of this thread is to show that people do NOT
have free will to choose to believe in Jesus and His gospel.
Before the foundation of the world …
God saw who people really are, and He chose some, but not others!

A point of clarification about your position as stated in the OP: You want to show that people don't have the free will to choose Christ. However, you state that, based on God's foreknowledge, God saw who people really are. The idea being that God chooses based on God's foreknowledge of what people will do.

Traditionally, this position has been known as Molinism, and it allows for both free will and God's choosing. In other words, God chooses based on God's foreknowledge of people's free will decisions.

I'm not sure if that's the argument you are trying to make. At any rate, it could be argued that people do have free will and God chooses who will be saved (albeit based on God's foreknowledge of people's free will decisions in the future).
 
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Steven Beck

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A point of clarification about your position as stated in the OP: You want to show that people don't have the free will to choose Christ. However, you state that, based on God's foreknowledge, God saw who people really are. The idea being that God chooses based on God's foreknowledge of what people will do.

Traditionally, this position has been known as Molinism, and it allows for both free will and God's choosing. In other words, God chooses based on God's foreknowledge of people's free will decisions.

I'm not sure if that's the argument you are trying to make. At any rate, it could be argued that people do have free will and God chooses who will be saved (albeit based on God's foreknowledge of people's free will decisions in the future).

Total contradiction.
 
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GirdYourLoins

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Quite simply, you are limiting God to the restraints of sinful mankind. God is greater than we are and is not constrained by time in the way we are. We do have free will to choose and God has chosen us at the same time. The two are not independent of each other but both are wholly true.

A metaphore that comes to mind, while not perfect, is magnets. If you have two magnets that are aligned North to North they repel each other. If you align them North to South they attract (metaphore for chose) each other. One does not attract the other, but both exert a magnetic force to stick to the other. It is a natural state ehere either both repel or both attract. There is no possibility of one choosing to attract and the other choosing not to.
 
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Steven Beck

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Quite simply, you are limiting God to the restraints of sinful mankind. God is greater than we are and is not constrained by time in the way we are. We do have free will to choose and God has chosen us at the same time. The two are not independent of each other but both are wholly true.

A metaphore that comes to mind, while not perfect, is magnets. If you have two magnets that are aligned North to North they repel each other. If you align them North to South they attract (metaphore for chose) each other. One does not attract the other, but both exert a magnetic force to stick to the other. It is a natural state ehere either both repel or both attract. There is no possibility of one choosing to attract and the other choosing not to.

Please quote one single verse in the bible that says God has chosen us for salvation. Otherwise it is just your opinion.
 
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